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B
Come on saints lets stop the poking at one another and let the holy spirit have his way. This study is a blessing and let us pray to keep it that way. It reminds me of the story of Jesus and nicodemus. Nicodemus being no stranger to scripture asked jesus if a man can enter his mother's womb twice. Can you imagine the look on Jesus's face wwwhhhaaaat but instead he told him the truth. Let the holy spirit have his way.....just saying
The Mesoretic text could not have been cited in the first century because it did not exist until the seventh to tenth centuries. However the Hebrew which appears in the Mesoretic text is identical to the Hebrew in the Torah Scrolls from which Jesus read.
the fact that some of the apostles and other NT writers quoted the LXX was the same reason that the NT was written in Greek; namely, to reach the largest number of people. there is no suggestion of Spiritual superiority.
the fact that some of the apostles and other NT writers quoted the LXX was the same reason that the NT was written in Greek; namely, to reach the largest number of people. there is no suggestion of Spiritual superiority.
You may find this excerpt from my commentary of interest:
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted,
and became into four heads.
In 17th century English, head in this context signifies direction (heading). The NIV
translates this as headwaters.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of
Havilah, where there is gold;
Pison: There is no certainty or agreement among scholars as to the location of this river.
Havilah: There is considerable controversy over the location of Havilah, but many
respected scholars believe it is the Northwest Arabian Peninsula.
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
Bdellium: There is a great deal of controversy about the translation of this word. The
only other Bible reference to it is Nu 11:7 where mana is described as like bdellium in
color and like coriander seed. The Septuagint translates it a precious stone; the Vulgate
translates it a transparent aromatic gum; and most rabbinic scholars and Gesenius
believe it to be pearl. {Return to: Eze 27:22 }
43
13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the
whole land of Ethiopia.
The Hebrew word ‘sobayb’ translated ‘compasseth’ can mean either surround or
traverse or border.
Gihon: No river surrounds Ethiopia the one which traverses it is the Nile.
44
14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of
Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
Hiddekel is the Tigris.
This is of course pure speculation; but it is informed speculation.
In order to traverse Ethiopia, Gihon must be the Nile. To encompass Arabia it is
reasonable that Pison refers to the antediluvian (before the flood) Red Sea.
There is sound scholarship for calling the Tigris ‘Hiddekel’ and the Euphrates is still in
place. If before the flood both the Tigris and Euphrates extended around the south of the
Arabian Peninsula; then Aden could have been the site of Eden.
Note: This map was found among some loose papers and adapted to my
purposes. Source would be cited if known.
For one, we know of at least three Hebrew editions that don't match the MT. Those would be the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Samaritan Pentateuch, and the Hebrew version that the translators of the Septuagint used.
One example of the difference that is easily identifiable is something like the book, the entire book, of Jeremiah (this also goes for Ezekiel, . The version found in the DSS and LXX are significantly shorter than the one found in the MT. Not only are they shorter, but the chapters are in a different arrangement (also goes for Ezekiel). Another easy example would be the chronologies in Genesis, which are different across the LXX, SP, and MT. In many cases, the LXX, DSS, and SP will agree with each other where the MT will differ beyond just vowel points and chapter divisions (eg, Deut 8, 32).
A more detailed paper on the large scale differences in OT manuscripts:
http://www.emanueltov.info/docs/papers/11.large-scalediffs.2008.pdf
Emanuel Tov
One example of the difference that is easily identifiable is something like the book, the entire book, of Jeremiah (this also goes for Ezekiel, . The version found in the DSS and LXX are significantly shorter than the one found in the MT. Not only are they shorter, but the chapters are in a different arrangement (also goes for Ezekiel). Another easy example would be the chronologies in Genesis, which are different across the LXX, SP, and MT. In many cases, the LXX, DSS, and SP will agree with each other where the MT will differ beyond just vowel points and chapter divisions (eg, Deut 8, 32).
A more detailed paper on the large scale differences in OT manuscripts:
http://www.emanueltov.info/docs/papers/11.large-scalediffs.2008.pdf
Emanuel Tov
The problem is that's not exactly what the main body of scholarship says. The main body of scholarship says that there were different Hebrew editions in existence during the 2nd Temple period which didn't necessarily match up perfectly with each other. When there are differences between the manuscripts, sometimes the MT is superior/preferred reading but sometimes it isn't. Scholars really take it on a case-by-case basis and don't prefer, wholesale, one version over another.
No problem. Beyond a circle of nerds and Samaritans, it's not well known (really, I don't think it's known well outside of academia and Nablus, Israel). THere is an English translation of it if you're into this kind of thing though:
The Israelite Samaritan Version of the Torah: First English Translation Compared with the Masoretic Version: Benyamim Tsedaka, Sharon Sullivan, James H. Charlesworth, Emanuel Tov: 9780802865199: Amazon.com: Books
The Israelite Samaritan Version of the Torah: First English Translation Compared with the Masoretic Version: Benyamim Tsedaka, Sharon Sullivan, James H. Charlesworth, Emanuel Tov: 9780802865199: Amazon.com: Books
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Especially when we are able to grasp the fact that there is an infinite God who has a perfect and holy perspective of all things, and we are completely finite and carnal in our understanding of all things.
What we understand to be the relationship between dust and man comes from a very limited understanding of the importance of God choosing to have man created from the dust.
(This isn't too terribly profound or interesting of a comment, but I wanted to get the thread back on track and put it up on the front page so people can see it again)
What we understand to be the relationship between dust and man comes from a very limited understanding of the importance of God choosing to have man created from the dust.
(This isn't too terribly profound or interesting of a comment, but I wanted to get the thread back on track and put it up on the front page so people can see it again)
B
There is a interesting teaching on the d.o.d.station about the soil or dust of the earth and how without it the would be on life or plants and animals. How we take for granted what we walk on as just dirt but by all intentional purposes it is the most valuable assets on the planet. It may be a stretch here but I look at it as us being a witness for Christ then once we are removed "rapture" the world goes into chaos. Just thinking......
R
Genesis 3
Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from [SUP][a][/SUP]any tree of the garden’?” [SUP]2 [/SUP]The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; [SUP]3 [/SUP]but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’” [SUP]4 [/SUP]The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! [SUP]5 [/SUP]For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” [SUP]6 [/SUP]When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves [SUP][/SUP]loin coverings.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]They heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the [SUP][c][/SUP]cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Then the Lord God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?” [SUP]10 [/SUP]He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.” [SUP]11 [/SUP]And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?” [SUP]12 [/SUP]The man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate.” [SUP]13 [/SUP]Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?” And the woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” [SUP]14 [/SUP]The Lord God said to the serpent,
“Because you have done this,
Cursed are you more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you will go,
And dust you will eat
All the days of your life;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall [SUP][d][/SUP]bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.”
[SUP]16 [/SUP]To the woman He said,
“I will greatly multiply
Your pain [SUP][e][/SUP]in childbirth,
In pain you will bring forth children;
Yet your desire will be for your husband,
And he will rule over you.”
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’;
Cursed is the ground because of you;
In [SUP][f][/SUP]toil you will eat of it
All the days of your life.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]“Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the [SUP][g][/SUP]plants of the field;
[SUP]19 [/SUP]By the sweat of your face
You will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Now the man called his wife’s name [SUP][h][/SUP]Eve, because she was the mother of all the living. [SUP]21 [/SUP]The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— [SUP]23 [/SUP]therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. [SUP]24 [/SUP]So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.
Footnotes:
a. Genesis 3:1 Or every
b. Genesis 3:7 Or girdles
c. Genesis 3:8 Lit wind, breeze
d. Genesis 3:15 Or crush
e. Genesis 3:16 Lit and your pregnancy, conception
f. Genesis 3:17 Or sorrow
g. Genesis 3:18 Lit plant
h. Genesis 3:20 I.e. living; or life
What grieves me about this passage is that Adam and Eve were allowed to eat from the Tree of Life; there was no prohibition about that. Instead, they chose knowledge. They didn't choose life. God allowed them, even wanted them to choose life. The 1 thing He said not to do, they did. How incredibly frustrating!
Then I realize I do the same thing too.
Then I realize I do the same thing too.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’”
In the Hebrew, there is much more going on here than appears in the English translation.
In Gen 2:17 God said in the 'Qal' (active) voice:Ge 2:17
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. מ֥וֺת תָּמֽוּת
KJV; BUT,
in Gen 3:3 , in addition to the obvious addition of the restriction on touching the fruit, which God did NOT include;
Eve misstates God's words in the 'Niphal' (passive) voice "or you will be killed פֶּן־ תְּמֻתֽוּן
thisis a typical form of carelessness in not correctly rendering tense and voice that pervades all translations, to some extent.
Both Strong and Brown Driver Briggs agree that ‘t’moot’ means kill in this form (no vahv immediately after the mem). This is an imperfect niphal roughly equivalent to our future passive form. This is a very subtle challenge to God’s Word. God said nothing about killing them and in fact they died a natural death. They could have had much more had they obeyed. They forfeit access to the tree of (eternal) life and close fellowship with God.
In Gen 3:4, [SUP]4 [/SUP]The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!" 'You shall surely not be killed' לֹאֽ־ מוֺת תְּמֻתֽוּן literally 'NOT DEATH YE SHALL BE KILLED'
Satan is NOT guilty of the outright lie most commentators charge him with. This is much more insidious. Satan truthfully denies Eve's misstatement of God's Word; without actually denying God's Word itself.
One of the many lessons here is to be careful not to misstate God's word.
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Genesis 3
Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from [SUP][a][/SUP]any tree of the garden’?”
[SUP]2 [/SUP]The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat;
[SUP]3 [/SUP]but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’”
[SUP]4 [/SUP]The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
[SUP]6 [/SUP]When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves [SUP][/SUP]loin coverings.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]They heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the [SUP][c][/SUP]cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then the Lord God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?” [SUP]
10 [/SUP]He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.” [SUP]
11 [/SUP]And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?” [SUP]
12 [/SUP]The man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate.”
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?” And the woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
[SUP]14 [/SUP]The Lord God said to the serpent,
“Because you have done this,
Cursed are you more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you will go,
And dust you will eat
All the days of your life;
[SUP]
15 [/SUP]And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall [SUP][d][/SUP]bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.”
[SUP]
16 [/SUP]To the woman He said,
“I will greatly multiply
Your pain [SUP][e][/SUP]in childbirth,
In pain you will bring forth children;
Yet your desire will be for your husband,
And he will rule over you.”
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’;
Cursed is the ground because of you;
In [SUP][f][/SUP]toil you will eat of it
All the days of your life.
[SUP]
18 [/SUP]“Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the [SUP][g][/SUP]plants of the field;
[SUP]19 [/SUP]By the sweat of your face
You will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Now the man called his wife’s name [SUP][h][/SUP]Eve, because she was the mother of all the living.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—
[SUP]23 [/SUP]therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.
Footnotes:
a. Genesis 3:1 Or every
b. Genesis 3:7 Or girdles
c. Genesis 3:8 Lit wind, breeze
d. Genesis 3:15 Or crush
e. Genesis 3:16 Lit and your pregnancy, conception
f. Genesis 3:17 Or sorrow
g. Genesis 3:18 Lit plant
h. Genesis 3:20 I.e. living; or life
[SUP]14 [/SUP]The Lord God said to the serpent,
“Because you have done this,
Cursed are you more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you will go, [you will continue to go] The Hebrew imperfect is NOT an exact equivalent of the English future. The imperfect is more concerned with continuity than with time.
And dust you will eat [you will continue to eat]
All the days of your life;
Genesis 3
Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from [SUP][a][/SUP]any tree of the garden’?”
[SUP]2 [/SUP]The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat;
[SUP]3 [/SUP]but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’”
[SUP]4 [/SUP]The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
[SUP]6 [/SUP]When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves [SUP][/SUP]loin coverings.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]They heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the [SUP][c][/SUP]cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then the Lord God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?” [SUP]
10 [/SUP]He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.” [SUP]
11 [/SUP]And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?” [SUP]
12 [/SUP]The man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate.”
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?” And the woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
[SUP]14 [/SUP]The Lord God said to the serpent,
“Because you have done this,
Cursed are you more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you will go,
And dust you will eat
All the days of your life;
[SUP]
15 [/SUP]And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall [SUP][d][/SUP]bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.”
[SUP]
16 [/SUP]To the woman He said,
“I will greatly multiply
Your pain [SUP][e][/SUP]in childbirth,
In pain you will bring forth children;
Yet your desire will be for your husband,
And he will rule over you.”
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’;
Cursed is the ground because of you;
In [SUP][f][/SUP]toil you will eat of it
All the days of your life.
[SUP]
18 [/SUP]“Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the [SUP][g][/SUP]plants of the field;
[SUP]19 [/SUP]By the sweat of your face
You will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Now the man called his wife’s name [SUP][h][/SUP]Eve, because she was the mother of all the living.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—
[SUP]23 [/SUP]therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.
Footnotes:
a. Genesis 3:1 Or every
b. Genesis 3:7 Or girdles
c. Genesis 3:8 Lit wind, breeze
d. Genesis 3:15 Or crush
e. Genesis 3:16 Lit and your pregnancy, conception
f. Genesis 3:17 Or sorrow
g. Genesis 3:18 Lit plant
h. Genesis 3:20 I.e. living; or life
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall [SUP][d][/SUP]bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.”
While certainly not understood fully at the time it was spoken, we see here not only the first hint of God's plan of redemption for mankind; but a clear statement that the Redeemer would be born from a woman without a male human parent.