WAS BENJAMIN BORN AFTER JOSEPH WAS SOLD INTO SLAVERY OR BEFORE?

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watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
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#41
Jacob actually served Laban for a total of 20 years, 31:38. He marries Leah and Rachel only one week apart. Assuming that Leah got pregnant following her first menstrual cycle after they were married, then Ruben is born in their first of marriage. Joseph is born six years later. Let's look at the math. After seven initial years of service, Jacob marries both women. Ruben is born in the first year of their marriage, this makes eight years. Joseph is born six years later. This places Jacob in Pandan-arim 14 years. He continues to serve Laben for another six years. This makes Joseph six hears old when they leave Pandan-aram.
Reuben - 1st year
Simeon - 2nd years
Levi - 3rd year
Judah- 4th year
then stop having children-say 5th year

Issachar- 6th year
*Zebulun-7th year, not to mentioned Dinah
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#42
Reuben - 1st year
Simeon - 2nd years
Levi - 3rd year
Judah- 4th year
then stop having children-say 5th year

Issachar- 6th year
*Zebulun-7th year, not to mentioned Dinah

Yes, in the
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]span of seven years Jacob has no less that 12 children. Leah had seven children in those seven years and none of them were twins. Wow, can you imagine having seven children in seven years?[/FONT]
 
Feb 7, 2013
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#43
Peace be with you beloved ones of LORD JESUS CHRIST, if i may ask a question regarding this tread;

How and why did Jacob's wife pass way?
 

oldhermit

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#44
Peace be with you beloved ones of LORD JESUS CHRIST, if i may ask a question regarding this tread;

How and why did Jacob's wife pass way?
She died as the result of a difficult child birth, 35:16-19
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
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#45
Olderhermit,
you reckoned that when Joseph was 17, benjamin was hardly a year old.

Your margin of error in age is very slim, will this affect your conclusion let say if Joseph was born at a later year?
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#46
Olderhermit,
you reckoned that when Joseph was 17, benjamin was hardly a year old.

Your margin of error in age is very slim, will this affect your conclusion let say if Joseph was born at a later year?
Does it matter if it was one minute or 50 years as Ben was born before Joseph was sold into slavery which answered the original post? .....Just asking and not being mouthy and how could this affect the over all theology?
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,592
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#47
Benjamin is the youngest.


Here in Spain, the youngest child in a given family is referred to as "El Benjamin" or "La Benjamina." This is taken from Benjamin being the youngst of the Twelve sons of Israel. Below is a chart depicting the twelve sons and their mothers. I hope this is useful. Yahweh bless all in Yeshua, amen.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#48
Olderhermit,
you reckoned that when Joseph was 17, benjamin was hardly a year old.

Your margin of error in age is very slim, will this affect your conclusion let say if Joseph was born at a later year?
You are right. The margin of error is very slim and I would certainly concede the possibility of a margin of error of perhaps a year or two, but I think one would be hard pressed to find that error. It really does not matter whether I am off on this particular point one year or 15 years, Joseph would still be older than Benjamin.
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
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#50
You are right. The margin of error is very slim and I would certainly concede the possibility of a margin of error of perhaps a year or two, but I think one would be hard pressed to find that error. It really does not matter whether I am off on this particular point one year or 15 years, Joseph would still be older than Benjamin.
There is no question about joseph being older than benjamin.
Is it possible that joseph was 18 years older than benjamin? and for that reason benjamin might have been born after joseph was sold.
I am just merely asking if it is possible?
 

oldhermit

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Jul 28, 2012
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#51
There is no question about joseph being older than benjamin.
Is it possible that joseph was 18 years older than benjamin? and for that reason benjamin might have been born after joseph was sold.
I am just merely asking if it is possible?
Ok, I see what you are saying. But this is not possible because Joseph was not sold into slavery until after Jacob settles in Bethel in chapter 37. Benjamin is born on the way to Bethel even before they reach Ephrath in chapter 35. The sequence of events is clearly outlined.
 
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JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#52
Rachel died giving birth to Benjamin. She was going to call him, son of my sorrows, Benoni, but Israel would have none of that, and named him, Benjamin, son of the right hand. Benjamin is always referred to as the youngest in reference to the brothers, and being born of the same mother, it is only reasonable that Benjamin is the youngest of the twelve. He is, however, older than the two half-tribes' patriarchs.
 
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watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
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#53
Ok, I see what you are saying. But this is not possible because Joseph was not sold into slavery until after Jacob settles in Bethel in chapter 37. Benjamin is born on the way to Bethel even before they reach Ephrath in chapter 35. The sequence of events is clearly outlined.
How long did they stay in Shalem from chapter 34?
 

oldhermit

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#54
How long did they stay in Shalem from chapter 34?
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
Keil, (of Keil and Delitzch) suggests that Dinah is probably between 13 and 15 years of age when this incident occurred and no older. This does not seem to add up because according to 30:22, it was after the birth of Dinah that God remembered Rebekah and Joseph was born. According to 37:2, Joseph was sold by his brothers when he was 17 years old. Keil says this would place this event in the eleventh year after Jacob had returned to the Mesopotamian region. But, this will not work. Jacob will not be in his eleventh year in the land until Joseph is 17 when he is sold into slavery later on when they are living in Bethlehem in chapter 37. The Dinah incident occurs sometime before this but, there is no way to determine just how long Jacob has been in the land since he left Pandan-aram, nor do we know how long Jacob is in Pandanaram before Joseph reaches 17 years of age. According to 30:24, Joseph was born in Jacob's fourteenth year of service to Laban when Jacob is 90 years old. Dinah is older than Joseph by one [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]or [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]maybe[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] even two years. So, she is probably between 15 and 17 when this event occurred. This would put Joseph between 14 and 16 at the time Dinah was violated.[/FONT]
 

oldhermit

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#55
On that note, it is also very likely that Zebulon and Dinah are twins which would certainly seem to be the case because Zebulon and Joseph appear to be the same age. This is something else to consider that be is support Keil.
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
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#56
On that note, it is also very likely that Zebulon and Dinah are twins which would certainly seem to be the case because Zebulon and Joseph appear to be the same age. This is something else to consider that be is support Keil.
Dinah was born after Zebulon.
Gen 30:21 And afterwards she bare a daughter, and called her name Dinah.

and most likely if they were twins. it would have been recorded like Jacob/esau, Tamar.


 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
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#57
Ok, I see what you are saying. But this is not possible because Joseph was not sold into slavery until after Jacob settles in Bethel in chapter 37. Benjamin is born on the way to Bethel even before they reach Ephrath in chapter 35. The sequence of events is clearly outlined.
There are events in the Bible that jumps from chapter to chapter...
Chapter 37 said: And Jacob dwelt....in Canaan;
Shalem from verse 34 was also located in Canaan 33:18.

Although from chapter 35 shows the journey of Jacob to Bethel, a generation chapter of 36 regarding Esau Generation was before 37.
How sure are we that chapter 37 was in Bethel and not while in Shalem?
 

oldhermit

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#58
Dinah was born after Zebulon.
Gen 30:21 And afterwards she bare a daughter, and called her name Dinah.

and most likely if they were twins. it would have been recorded like Jacob/esau, Tamar.

This was only offered as a possibility but consider this. With all of the other children, the conception of each child is recorded. In the case of Zebulun and Dinah it only says, 19"Leah conceived again and bore a sixth son to Jacob. 20Then Leah said, “God has endowed me with a good gift; now my husband will dwell with me, because I have borne him six sons.” So she named him Zebulun. 21Afterward she bore a daughter and named her Dinah. "

There is not a separate conception recorded in connection with the birth of Dinah. This is common language use found in the O.T. when we see the birth of twin. For example:

The Birth of Cain and Able. Possibility of twins – 2 arguments, both linguistic in nature.

A. What appears in the text? According to Clark, the text reads literally “and she added to bare.” This would suggest she bore again out of the same conception. This is the same construction found in Gen 30:32. It is not exactly the same word used but the meaning of the two word appear to be the same.

B. What does not appear in the text is a second conception. Most other times in scripture where children were born of the same parents, separate conceptions are recorded with each child represented. For example:

 
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oldhermit

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Jul 28, 2012
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#59
?
There are events in the Bible that jumps from chapter to chapter...
Chapter 37 said: And Jacob dwelt....in Canaan;
Shalem from verse 34 was also located in Canaan 33:18.

Although from chapter 35 shows the journey of Jacob to Bethel, a generation chapter of 36 regarding Esau Generation was before 37.
How sure are we that chapter 37 was in Bethel and not while in Shalem?
What evidence can you give from the text that suggests this is not a record of sequential events?
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
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#60
?

What evidence can you give from the text that suggests this is not a record of sequential events?
I am not saying that 37 is not a continuation of 35, but is it possible that 37 also talks of the time Jacob first dwell in the Land of Canaan after meeting Esau.

33 Jacob-Meet Esau then dwell in the Land of shalem...the land of canaan

36: Record Esau generation
37:1 record that Jacob dwelt...in the Land of Canaan.