This is always the accusation. Paul is being put before Jesus. Why is this?
Umm, because that is what is actually happening here?
I quote Jesus word for word about his own assessment on obedience to his teachings
Luke 6:46
"And why call ye me "Lord, lord" and do not the things which I say?"
And directly in response you say this:
Paul said the way of law/commandments is the way of self righteousness
Jesus said to obey, but YOU say Paul said that is self righteous.
You are pitting Paul against Jesus, whereas I don't think Paul was against obedience to the teachings of Jesus at all.
The Pharisees and Saducees were were offended too at Christ's message. What did they say to Jesus?'You are ignoring God's commands, ignoring the law. Why do you think they constanmtly accused Christ of this?
You use the word "too" in this sentence, indicating that someone else here besides the pharisees and saducees were offended at Christ's message. Based on the context of the sentence I assume you mean me, but that really does baffle me as I've been quoting Jesus all along and promoting a GREATER examination of his teachings. You are the one who has been saying that the teachings of Jesus don't even need to be referred to if you have love in your heart.
Anyway, the pharisees were offended at Jesus "breaking the law". The most common occurrence of this was when he did good works on the sabbath day.
I suspect you are using the pharisees abuse of this rule from God (i.e. you can't even save a person's life on the sabbath day because it's work) as an example of what can happen when people become obessed with the rules. I get that.
But just because some people twist the commands of God does not mean we throw them out altogeher or that there is a problem with the rules themselves. Your logic does not work in that exmaple, if that is what you were trying to suggest.
And many today accuse others of ignoring Christ's commands when they speak of victory by faith
Sorry, what do you mean by "speak of victory by faith"?
Yet the first Christians were known as 'the way' they lived their lives by simple faith and a total reliance on the Holy Spirit.
Can you give us some examples of "the way" the first christians lived? For example, Jesus, John, Peter, James, etc...
But many today stress what the individual themselves has to do.
So you are suggesting that it is the holy spirit who should be telling people "the way" they should be living, and not individuals themselves deciding? Well I don't agree with that 100% but I do agree that people should be listening to the leadings of the holy spirit.
Here is what Jesus said about the holy spirit leading people:
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and
bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
This follows comments from Jesus about how people who love him will keep his commands. Here is an example...
Jhn 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Wow, fancy that. The job of the holy spirit is to remind us and convict us to follow the teachings of Jesus !!!
Why do you keep arguing that it is not necessary to keep the commands of Jesus?
Luke 6:46 "Why do you call me Lord, but do not obey me"?
A message from Jesus of love God love your neighbour would certainly offend the proud
Yeah you are probably right about that, but what kind of reaction does a message of "forsake all and go into all the world preaching the gospel full time" bring? I think you've given us a fairly good idea.
When I was much younger than I am now I used to say the same kinds of things as you concern ing earning money.
So, at some point earlier in life you felt it WAS important to consider Jesus' commands about money and possesions? How did that change to "we don't need to refer to those teachings because it means we are being self rightious? What caused you to support the "we're not under the law" doctrine when it comes to Jesus' teachings on money? Could it have ANYthing at all to do with the love of money being the root of all evil?
I'd say that's a fairly convincing argument to explain why any christian would argue against obedience to the teachings of Jesus concerning money.
Paul(sorry to mention his writings again) encouraged churches to give financial supporet to other churches in need. Why did he do this? Wouldn't God just supply these churchesa needs if you are right.
Are you seriously asking why Paul would teach that Christians should share with one another? Is like that thing that scott was doing with "call no man on Earth father" where he pretended not to understand what that means so that he could justify not obeying it?
And where would these churches get the money from to support others if it was not worked for?
Are you suggesting that it is a fear of not knowing where you will get your provision from that stops you from wanting to obey these teachings? Well, yeah it can be kind of scary but that is the whole point of living by faith. We don't always know where our provision will come from, but we trust God anyway. Jesus sent the disciples out without anything. He told them not to take money, extra shoes or a coat or food and sent them out to go preach. They later came back with a glowing report about how God provided everything they needed. Of course, these were rough and tough, honest-to-God Christians who were willing to sleep outunder the stars if that was the only provision God provided for them and not some whiney Christians in chat complaining about where the money will come from.
If no Christian should be in paid employment then the churches Paul was speaking of would have had to rely on non Christians giving them money.
No, they just rely on God and God decides how to provide for them. Is that message really so difficult to understand, lbg? For God's sake just let him do his job! He said he will pay the bills if we step out in faith in him and work for his kingdom FIRST. Why do you suppose he used that word "first", lbg? Any idea, in the context of the teaching, what was meant to be "second"? I'll give you a hint, he was talking about the two masters of matthew 6:24.
Don't tie up the mouth of an ox when it is treading out the wheat
Exactly, Christians who work for God will be fed by god (i.e. their mouths will not be tied)
Certainly you are not advocating that it is the SYSTEM that should be providing for people when they work for it. Once again, who is first and who is second in the equation for who you serve, lbg?
Tithing is scriptural. How can anyone tithe if they earn no mponey.
You are half right. In the old testament there was some teaching abou tithing. But the word "tithe" literally means 10%. Jesus fulfilled the law and bumped it up to 100%. God doenst want your chump change anymore. He wants everything.
But, for someone who can only see things in monetary terms, I understand your confusion. The entire idea of money is totally opposed to the values of the kingdom of Heaven. Jesus said that we should pray "thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven". But they don't work for money in heaven. They work for Love. We can and should do the same down here on Earth. Otherwise we really can't sincerely pray that part of the prayer.
So if there is no money in the kingdom of heaven, what do we give? We give our TIME. We give our time to helping one another just because we want to help and not as a result of some legal wrangling about how much we'll be paid for it.
I think these comments from you really do show that I was absolutely right about your convenient doctrine teaching that we don't need to referr to the teachings of Jesus. It is because of these teachings on money.
Fear is a bully and it will always push you around until you stand up to it.
And if a Christian is to eat, someone has to have some money so they can.
Can you see what is happening here, lbg? Can you see how your faith is in money and not in God? What you are expressing here is that you will die without money. God doesn't come into the picture at all.
So in effect you expecxt non Christians to support Christians to live. As you don't think any Christian shpould work for money. This is not sensible ccg.
You're still not getting it. Trust God. He is the one who will take care of your needs in whatever way he deems fit. That is his responsibility. OUR responsibility is to trust him and obey him. You've got it all the wrong way around. You want to provide for yourself, and you want God to trust that YOU are the loving one and therefore have no need to step out in faith as he so clearly instructed his followers to do.
I lived at a Christian community twice. Many went there saying that GHod had called them to a life of communityy, not to work as such. The leaders often discerned it was because a person simply wanted to avoid going out to work. This was a regular occurence
Yeah okay. That's why Paul told the church, if anyone will not work, he should not eat. If someone comes to a christian community thinking of it as some kind of utopia where they can laze around. Fair enough. As long as they are happy not to eat then they should feel free to relax as much as they want.
But it seems like you've switched back over to work vs non work, when that really isn't the sitaution at all. It's about who we work for. This sounds very similar to what scott was saying over on another thread about how Peter certainly wasn't some wandering bum, because he had paid employment.
The implication being that anyone who would dare work for free is just a dirty bum while those who know the benefits of working for money are smart and sensible. Once again, you've got the values of the kingdom of heaven all mixed up, much like the story you shared about a poor church congregation feeling uncomfortable to have a rich man in their midsts.
If our hearts do not condemn us we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask because we obey his commands and do what pleases him.
And this is his command to believe on the name of his son Jesus Christ and to love one another
In one breath you say you believe in the commandments of Jesus, but when those commands challenge your steady source of income suddenly you throw God out the window and declare that we can't live without money.
Just so much religious jargon...