What is "God's Will"?
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Salvation is "not ... of the will of man" (John 1:13). It is "not of him who wills" (Romans 9:16). Rather, it is "of God" (John 1:13; Romans 9:16). Men are "slaves of sin" (Romans 6:17).
Men "seek only rebellion" (Proverbs 17:11). "There is none who understands" (Romans 9:11; Psalm 14:2-3; Psalm 53:2-3) what is good. "There is none who seeks after God" (Romans 9:11; Psalm 14:2-3; Psalm 53:2-3). "There is none who does good, no, not one" (Romans 9:12; Psalm 14:3; Psalm 53:3). "[T]here is not a just man on earth who does good" (Ecclesiastes 7:20). "[E]very intent of the thoughts of his heart" is "only evil continually" (Genesis 6:5).
"[A]ll our righeousnesses are like filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6). Our "goodness is nothing apart from [God]" (Psalm 16:2). "[T]here is no one who calls on [God's] name, [w]ho stirs himself up to take hold of [God]." Why? Because God has "hidden [his] face from us, [a]nd [has] consumed us because of our iniquities" (Isaiah 64:7).
"Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots?" No. "Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil." (Jeremiah 13:23) In other words, men, who are accustomed to evil, may not do good; they may not change their ways any more than the leopard may change his spots. Men "have sinned" and "n these ways" they "continue" (Isaiah 64:5).
Pauls says,
"And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." (Romans 9:10-13)
God hated Esau and said that he would serve Jacob, not becauese of "any good or evil" that he had done, for "the children [had] not yet [been] born." Why, then? "[T]hat the purpose of God ... might stand". What purpose? "[E]lection." What is "election"? It is "not of works but of Him who calls." Election is not the choice of man; it is the calling of God.
So, it is not of men to choose God. Rather, "[w]e are the clay, and [God] our potter" and "we are the work of [his] hand" (Isaiah 64:8). "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8) Our faith is "not of [our]selves."
"For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things" (Romans 11:36) "[T]here is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, ... and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things" (1 Corinthians 8:6). Speaking of God, Hebrews 2:10 says "for whom are all things and by whom are all things".
So, if all things are of him, through him, and by him, that includes the choices of men, not only the choice of whether or not to turn to God, but all choices of any kind that have ever been made, are being made, or will be made, by any man who has ever lived, is living, or will live.
The scriptures are clear that men do have a will of their own, and we can also verify this in our own experience. Are we able to make choices? Of course! Try saying to yourself, "I choose to lift my arm," and then try to do it. Most likely, your arm will rise. You made the choice.
The problem comes in when we think that we have free will apart from the will of God, that we are able to do things and make choices apart from his power. We certainly do have a sort of free will, as we saw above when we tried to lift our arm: we didn't ask for God's help to do it. We chose to do it, seeminly on our own, and then we did it. And that's exactly the sort of free will we do in fact have: the seemingness of free will, the illusion of free will. In fact it is free will, in the sense just described, but we must keep in mind the teaching of scripture, that ultimately it, like everything, falls under the canopy of God's control. If not for God, we could not have chosen to do even something so simple as to lift our arm.
The reason the "Total Depravity vs. Free Will" debate exists is that we, as humans, living our lives day to day, hour to hour, minute to minute, do indeed seem to have a free will. We make choices all the time, seemingly without any influence from God. Yet, this is not what scripture teaches, as we have seen. Just because we do not perceive the hand of God does not mean it is not there. Our perception is limited, and if we think that we are able to perceive everything that is going on, we are mistaken.
The response is often something like, "You can't tell me I can't make my own choices." But, this is where the misconception lies. We do have a choice, and we are able to make choices. A person may choose to accept Christ as Lord, or they may not, and that choice may be influenced by their own will, as well as any number of other factors. We do make our own choices. We do not have to conclude that the lost have no hope of salvation, and so we have no reason to minister to them. Scripture teaches just the opposite. God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4) Christ "gave Himself a ransom for all" (1 Timothy 2:6), and, as far as we are concerned, anyone may choose to follow him. It is not within the bounds of our perspective to know or have anything to do with whom God may or may not choose. This is the purview of God alone.
Yes, it may seem strange to us that our choices are ultimately according to the will of God, but that does not mean that they are not our choices to make. "But that doesn't make any sense," you may say. Indeed, in a way it does not! It seems to us, in our limited way, to be a sort of causal paradox: do we make our choices, or does God? How can both be true? Yet, this idea of an apparent paradox is a common theme in scripture, not seen just here in the issue of choice, but in many other areas as well. (For example, in one sense, God is definitely not a man. But, in another sense, he definitely is.)
(It is even seen, apparently, in God's creation, nature itself. Quantum mechanics, which has been verified experimentally and applies to the entire universe, tells us, for example, that a single particle may travel through two (or more) separate openings (slits) at once. It may simultaneously take many paths to a given destination, even interfering with itself as it does so! Note that this is just an interpretation of the experimental results, not necessarily a statement of absolute truth , but, so far, it is the best understanding we have been able to come to within the limits of our abilities of thought.)
The point is, we simply cannot hope to understand everything fully. Rather, we are to simply believe and trust God, and this is what scripture tells us. Paul says that "[f]or now we see in a mirror dimly" and that we "know in part" (1 Corinthians 13:12).
We know that "God is love" (1 John 4:8) and that he is good (Matthew 19:17; Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19), that "God is light and in Him is no darkness at all" (1 John 1:5), but it is not our place to apply our wisdom or understanding to put limits on what God does nor does not do. "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God" (1 Corinthians 3:19) and "He does whatever He pleases" (Psalm 115:3).
Instead,
Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; (Proverbs 3:5)
"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9)
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! (Romans 11:33)
Men "seek only rebellion" (Proverbs 17:11). "There is none who understands" (Romans 9:11; Psalm 14:2-3; Psalm 53:2-3) what is good. "There is none who seeks after God" (Romans 9:11; Psalm 14:2-3; Psalm 53:2-3). "There is none who does good, no, not one" (Romans 9:12; Psalm 14:3; Psalm 53:3). "[T]here is not a just man on earth who does good" (Ecclesiastes 7:20). "[E]very intent of the thoughts of his heart" is "only evil continually" (Genesis 6:5).
"[A]ll our righeousnesses are like filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6). Our "goodness is nothing apart from [God]" (Psalm 16:2). "[T]here is no one who calls on [God's] name, [w]ho stirs himself up to take hold of [God]." Why? Because God has "hidden [his] face from us, [a]nd [has] consumed us because of our iniquities" (Isaiah 64:7).
"Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots?" No. "Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil." (Jeremiah 13:23) In other words, men, who are accustomed to evil, may not do good; they may not change their ways any more than the leopard may change his spots. Men "have sinned" and "n these ways" they "continue" (Isaiah 64:5).
Pauls says,
"And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." (Romans 9:10-13)
God hated Esau and said that he would serve Jacob, not becauese of "any good or evil" that he had done, for "the children [had] not yet [been] born." Why, then? "[T]hat the purpose of God ... might stand". What purpose? "[E]lection." What is "election"? It is "not of works but of Him who calls." Election is not the choice of man; it is the calling of God.
So, it is not of men to choose God. Rather, "[w]e are the clay, and [God] our potter" and "we are the work of [his] hand" (Isaiah 64:8). "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8) Our faith is "not of [our]selves."
"For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things" (Romans 11:36) "[T]here is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, ... and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things" (1 Corinthians 8:6). Speaking of God, Hebrews 2:10 says "for whom are all things and by whom are all things".
So, if all things are of him, through him, and by him, that includes the choices of men, not only the choice of whether or not to turn to God, but all choices of any kind that have ever been made, are being made, or will be made, by any man who has ever lived, is living, or will live.
The scriptures are clear that men do have a will of their own, and we can also verify this in our own experience. Are we able to make choices? Of course! Try saying to yourself, "I choose to lift my arm," and then try to do it. Most likely, your arm will rise. You made the choice.
The problem comes in when we think that we have free will apart from the will of God, that we are able to do things and make choices apart from his power. We certainly do have a sort of free will, as we saw above when we tried to lift our arm: we didn't ask for God's help to do it. We chose to do it, seeminly on our own, and then we did it. And that's exactly the sort of free will we do in fact have: the seemingness of free will, the illusion of free will. In fact it is free will, in the sense just described, but we must keep in mind the teaching of scripture, that ultimately it, like everything, falls under the canopy of God's control. If not for God, we could not have chosen to do even something so simple as to lift our arm.
The reason the "Total Depravity vs. Free Will" debate exists is that we, as humans, living our lives day to day, hour to hour, minute to minute, do indeed seem to have a free will. We make choices all the time, seemingly without any influence from God. Yet, this is not what scripture teaches, as we have seen. Just because we do not perceive the hand of God does not mean it is not there. Our perception is limited, and if we think that we are able to perceive everything that is going on, we are mistaken.
The response is often something like, "You can't tell me I can't make my own choices." But, this is where the misconception lies. We do have a choice, and we are able to make choices. A person may choose to accept Christ as Lord, or they may not, and that choice may be influenced by their own will, as well as any number of other factors. We do make our own choices. We do not have to conclude that the lost have no hope of salvation, and so we have no reason to minister to them. Scripture teaches just the opposite. God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4) Christ "gave Himself a ransom for all" (1 Timothy 2:6), and, as far as we are concerned, anyone may choose to follow him. It is not within the bounds of our perspective to know or have anything to do with whom God may or may not choose. This is the purview of God alone.
Yes, it may seem strange to us that our choices are ultimately according to the will of God, but that does not mean that they are not our choices to make. "But that doesn't make any sense," you may say. Indeed, in a way it does not! It seems to us, in our limited way, to be a sort of causal paradox: do we make our choices, or does God? How can both be true? Yet, this idea of an apparent paradox is a common theme in scripture, not seen just here in the issue of choice, but in many other areas as well. (For example, in one sense, God is definitely not a man. But, in another sense, he definitely is.)
(It is even seen, apparently, in God's creation, nature itself. Quantum mechanics, which has been verified experimentally and applies to the entire universe, tells us, for example, that a single particle may travel through two (or more) separate openings (slits) at once. It may simultaneously take many paths to a given destination, even interfering with itself as it does so! Note that this is just an interpretation of the experimental results, not necessarily a statement of absolute truth , but, so far, it is the best understanding we have been able to come to within the limits of our abilities of thought.)
The point is, we simply cannot hope to understand everything fully. Rather, we are to simply believe and trust God, and this is what scripture tells us. Paul says that "[f]or now we see in a mirror dimly" and that we "know in part" (1 Corinthians 13:12).
We know that "God is love" (1 John 4:8) and that he is good (Matthew 19:17; Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19), that "God is light and in Him is no darkness at all" (1 John 1:5), but it is not our place to apply our wisdom or understanding to put limits on what God does nor does not do. "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God" (1 Corinthians 3:19) and "He does whatever He pleases" (Psalm 115:3).
Instead,
Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; (Proverbs 3:5)
"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9)
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! (Romans 11:33)
The question can actually be answered with one verse as expounded by Sister reinitin,
(Joh 6:40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
I will stand on the words of our Lord over the words of man any time!
(Joh 6:40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
I will stand on the words of our Lord over the words of man any time!
C
I understand the concept just fine. The problem is that the concept of God being outside of time doesn't solve your problem, as I already demonstrated several posts ago. If God sees the future in the same way as we see the past then the future is just as certain as the past. If it is certain, it is fixed. You can't do anything to change it.
All that you have demonstrated repeatedly is that you do not understand.
Your Quote: If God sees the future in the same way as we see the past then the future is just as certain as the past. If it is certain, it is fixed. You can't do anything to change it.
I never said that God sees the future the way we see the past. Where did you get that from?
I said God sees our present from the future the way we see the past from our present. Not even close to being the same thing.
And for the record, I don't have a problem to be solved. I understand what I am talking about and I can read.
Listen, I don't have the time nor the inclination to bother with this. Ive tried to be patient and understanding. I've tried to explain it to you. Obviously you are the type of person who knows it all and has no desire to learn. I understand this having been 26 years old myself at one time.
Be that as it may, the one thing that the years have taught me is that the more I learn the more I realize how little I know. You will learn this too in time.
God Bless and Take Care Bro.
Fin
Your Quote: If God sees the future in the same way as we see the past then the future is just as certain as the past. If it is certain, it is fixed. You can't do anything to change it.
I never said that God sees the future the way we see the past. Where did you get that from?
I said God sees our present from the future the way we see the past from our present. Not even close to being the same thing.
And for the record, I don't have a problem to be solved. I understand what I am talking about and I can read.
Listen, I don't have the time nor the inclination to bother with this. Ive tried to be patient and understanding. I've tried to explain it to you. Obviously you are the type of person who knows it all and has no desire to learn. I understand this having been 26 years old myself at one time.
Be that as it may, the one thing that the years have taught me is that the more I learn the more I realize how little I know. You will learn this too in time.
God Bless and Take Care Bro.
Fin
C
Maybe it looks like we are saying two different things because I'm trying to make your words make sense, when they just don't make sense? That's what it looks like to me anyway.
"God sees our present from the future." What does this mean? That God is in the future looking "back" at the present? In which case, the present for us is past to God. Does God see anything at all as "future"?? If not, then God sees "the future" (what we see as future) in the same way we see the past. And how do we "see the past from our present"?? As (1) past and as (2) fixed in virtue of it being past. This, you claim, is the same way God views the present (as past!!).
Now if you think all of this has nothing to do with how God sees "the future" then you're just being irrelevant since you earlier brought up God's knowledge of *the future* and I responded to God's knowledge of *the future* (so why would you say something that didn't apply at all to *the future?).
If that doesn't make sense to you, it might be because you're not making sense when you talk about God viewing the present from the future.
Now you can throw up your hands and say that if I don't agree with you then it's just because I must be confused or you can try to demonstrate what you mean and how I'm the one who is confused.
I showed that you do (that is if you think this is a problem for predestinarians). If God knows all things exhaustively, then God knew that Moses would convince God to change his mind if God were to have such and such a stance towards Israel. God also knew that Israel would rebel against him. So why did God get angry about a situation that he knew was going to occur and then act like he was going to destroy them when he knew that he wouldn't?
What you go on to say about your age and my age is just ad hominem rhetoric. Old men can be just as bull headed know-it-alls as young men.
"God sees our present from the future." What does this mean? That God is in the future looking "back" at the present? In which case, the present for us is past to God. Does God see anything at all as "future"?? If not, then God sees "the future" (what we see as future) in the same way we see the past. And how do we "see the past from our present"?? As (1) past and as (2) fixed in virtue of it being past. This, you claim, is the same way God views the present (as past!!).
Now if you think all of this has nothing to do with how God sees "the future" then you're just being irrelevant since you earlier brought up God's knowledge of *the future* and I responded to God's knowledge of *the future* (so why would you say something that didn't apply at all to *the future?).
If that doesn't make sense to you, it might be because you're not making sense when you talk about God viewing the present from the future.
Now you can throw up your hands and say that if I don't agree with you then it's just because I must be confused or you can try to demonstrate what you mean and how I'm the one who is confused.
I showed that you do (that is if you think this is a problem for predestinarians). If God knows all things exhaustively, then God knew that Moses would convince God to change his mind if God were to have such and such a stance towards Israel. God also knew that Israel would rebel against him. So why did God get angry about a situation that he knew was going to occur and then act like he was going to destroy them when he knew that he wouldn't?
What you go on to say about your age and my age is just ad hominem rhetoric. Old men can be just as bull headed know-it-alls as young men.
F
I agree that God does indeed exist outside of the parameters of what man has determined to be "time". It's is but one attribute of the physical universal which was created by God.
I also believe in Free Will. However, I don't see how man's Free Will is a threat to God seeing as the bible teaches that God can see the end of time from the beginning of time thus it is completely possible for the Soverienty of God and the Free Will of man to coexist.
I also believe in Free Will. However, I don't see how man's Free Will is a threat to God seeing as the bible teaches that God can see the end of time from the beginning of time thus it is completely possible for the Soverienty of God and the Free Will of man to coexist.
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