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There is something you are missing, maybe this will give you truth, they DO reject Jesus, BECAUSE they are not His. Do you remember Jesus calling people sons of satan? They will share with the inheritance of their father.
This does not mean that you can point at an unbeliever and say they are not elect. We do not know when or if they will be called. We are to spread the good news none the less. Likewise, not all who say Lord Lord ARE His, to MANY, He will say, I DO NOT KNOW YOU.
Paul was explaining that the elect are brought to faith by hearing, telling them that the Gospel was the method of God calling His sheep.
Honestly with the 2 scriptures you presented about Isreal you made my head spin. This would make an interesting thread, get started on it and if that's your belief that all of the desdents of Jacob will be forgiven and spared then state that with the sole support of that scripture, more if you have them.
This does not mean that you can point at an unbeliever and say they are not elect. We do not know when or if they will be called. We are to spread the good news none the less. Likewise, not all who say Lord Lord ARE His, to MANY, He will say, I DO NOT KNOW YOU.
Paul was explaining that the elect are brought to faith by hearing, telling them that the Gospel was the method of God calling His sheep.
Honestly with the 2 scriptures you presented about Isreal you made my head spin. This would make an interesting thread, get started on it and if that's your belief that all of the desdents of Jacob will be forgiven and spared then state that with the sole support of that scripture, more if you have them.
D
First of all just because you are a descendant of ABRAHAM does not mean you are saved.
"For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham"
So that is your first error; misunderstanding WHO Israel is.
So let me ask you the question who is Israel?
And..
Who will be saved?
"For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham"
So that is your first error; misunderstanding WHO Israel is.
So let me ask you the question who is Israel?
And..
Who will be saved?
D
I agree the seed of Abraham, children of faith. Which isn't the ethnic group but the faithful group.
I also agree whoever believes on Him will be saved.
But...
Romans 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
In light of that passage... "For the same Lord over ALL is rich to ALL who call upon Him."
Why is it hard to understand that if you confess "Lord Jesus" and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead you will be saved. *not you were predestined to be saved*.
All the glory to the God (the Holy Spirit) for revealing that to you..
1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
My question to you is..
1) Who does the Holy Spirit convict of sin?
2) Why is it so hard to understand that some people would rather choose to live in their sin then surrender to God?
3) If you truly believe people are predestined... There is NO point in evangelism and no there is no way to get around that... I'll give you an example..
Billy was predestined to go to hell.
Bob was predestined to go to heaven
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING EITHER ONE OF THEM CAN DO TO CHANGE THEIR ETERNAL DESTINATION. There is absolutely no point whatsoever in evangelism if we are predestined no matter what WE do that will not change anyones eternal future. "Billy will go to hell no matter what he chooses to do or believes".. "Bob will go to heaven no matter what he chooses to do or believes".
I also agree whoever believes on Him will be saved.
But...
Romans 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
In light of that passage... "For the same Lord over ALL is rich to ALL who call upon Him."
Why is it hard to understand that if you confess "Lord Jesus" and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead you will be saved. *not you were predestined to be saved*.
All the glory to the God (the Holy Spirit) for revealing that to you..
1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
My question to you is..
1) Who does the Holy Spirit convict of sin?
2) Why is it so hard to understand that some people would rather choose to live in their sin then surrender to God?
3) If you truly believe people are predestined... There is NO point in evangelism and no there is no way to get around that... I'll give you an example..
Billy was predestined to go to hell.
Bob was predestined to go to heaven
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING EITHER ONE OF THEM CAN DO TO CHANGE THEIR ETERNAL DESTINATION. There is absolutely no point whatsoever in evangelism if we are predestined no matter what WE do that will not change anyones eternal future. "Billy will go to hell no matter what he chooses to do or believes".. "Bob will go to heaven no matter what he chooses to do or believes".
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D
To add to that...
Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
It says right there.. (In a short summary) ..
That God reveals Himself to people no matter what doctrines we have and if they choose to continue to live their life in sin and reject God's grace then God will give them up to their sins and allow them to live that way BECAUSE they rejected Him... God gave them up.. He doesn't force Himself on anyone if we choose not to surrender to Him then He will allow us to live in our sin and eventually end up in hell. But that is OUR choice He gave to us and some reject it. (God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them).. They reject.. (Therefore God also gave them up).
Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
It says right there.. (In a short summary) ..
That God reveals Himself to people no matter what doctrines we have and if they choose to continue to live their life in sin and reject God's grace then God will give them up to their sins and allow them to live that way BECAUSE they rejected Him... God gave them up.. He doesn't force Himself on anyone if we choose not to surrender to Him then He will allow us to live in our sin and eventually end up in hell. But that is OUR choice He gave to us and some reject it. (God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them).. They reject.. (Therefore God also gave them up).
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D
1 Corinthians 15
35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?”
36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain.
38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Okay now I posted that because there is only one type of flesh of man. That is; God only CREATED one man - Adam. God made Eve from Adam. We all come from Adam. Satan cannot create a child. Only God - the Creator has the ability to create. We make the choice to either live in our sin and not surrender to God.
The bible says if you are not for God you are against Him.. If you are not working for God you are against Him. The people who are not working for God are known as sons of the devil. But we make that choice to become a son or daughter of God or a son or daughter of the devil.
Regardless we were made in God's image and created to have a relationship with Him. Some will choose not to do that because they love there sin more then they love God.
Satan tries to work just like God...
Isaiah 14
12 “ How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
‘ I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
Satan says.. I will be like the Most High... He will try to be just like God. Satan is still an angel, but he is a fallen angel. He is still spirit.. God is spirit. Satan tries to work in the same ways God does. He will try to make you his by doing his work for him. By.. Working against God. Making the person a son of the devil.
35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?”
36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain.
38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Okay now I posted that because there is only one type of flesh of man. That is; God only CREATED one man - Adam. God made Eve from Adam. We all come from Adam. Satan cannot create a child. Only God - the Creator has the ability to create. We make the choice to either live in our sin and not surrender to God.
The bible says if you are not for God you are against Him.. If you are not working for God you are against Him. The people who are not working for God are known as sons of the devil. But we make that choice to become a son or daughter of God or a son or daughter of the devil.
Regardless we were made in God's image and created to have a relationship with Him. Some will choose not to do that because they love there sin more then they love God.
Satan tries to work just like God...
Isaiah 14
12 “ How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
‘ I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
Satan says.. I will be like the Most High... He will try to be just like God. Satan is still an angel, but he is a fallen angel. He is still spirit.. God is spirit. Satan tries to work in the same ways God does. He will try to make you his by doing his work for him. By.. Working against God. Making the person a son of the devil.
Thank you very much for this passage, it is a response to your claim that His election is unfair. This isn't only refering to unbelievers, but also the elect, that no man may boast.
For:
all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Rom. 3:10-18 and 3:23
Also,
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
God's nature is declared to ALL men, by His creation.
You stated that the unrepentant loved their sin more than they loved God.
Neither I nor you, nor any of the elect loved God before being convicted by the Holy Spirit. If you commit sin, you are a servant to sin. A servant cannot serve 2 masters, for he will love one and hate the other. If you love sin, you can't love God. They are polar opposites. Many claim to love God, but they don't know God, nor His nature, because if they did, they would hate their sin.
Look at the parable of the servants who did not watch for his master. The ones that knew their master was coming and did not watch recieved a stricter punishment than those who didn't know their master is coming.
Therefore whom God reveals himself too has a greater responsiblity.
This debate has become unprofitable, therefore I won't bother defending election to you anymore. God is righteous in all His judgements.
Praise be to God. May His grace guide you all.
For:
all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Rom. 3:10-18 and 3:23
Also,
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
God's nature is declared to ALL men, by His creation.
You stated that the unrepentant loved their sin more than they loved God.
Neither I nor you, nor any of the elect loved God before being convicted by the Holy Spirit. If you commit sin, you are a servant to sin. A servant cannot serve 2 masters, for he will love one and hate the other. If you love sin, you can't love God. They are polar opposites. Many claim to love God, but they don't know God, nor His nature, because if they did, they would hate their sin.
Look at the parable of the servants who did not watch for his master. The ones that knew their master was coming and did not watch recieved a stricter punishment than those who didn't know their master is coming.
Therefore whom God reveals himself too has a greater responsiblity.
This debate has become unprofitable, therefore I won't bother defending election to you anymore. God is righteous in all His judgements.
Praise be to God. May His grace guide you all.
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