Worshipping the Bible is Idolatry!

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

Are you saying that only followers of the EOC are Christian?

If you are, you are wrong.

Dear Shroom2
You seem to be saying something too. I am not saying that. There are Christians outside of the Orthodox Church. But if you are logical, you must be saying there's something wrong with Orthodoxy. You haven't proved that there is though. Through my many posts on "faith alone", I showed it is based upon Martin Luther's thinking, not Saint Paul's words in the NT.
And Luther rejects James as the work of no Apostle. Are you saying the followers of the EOC are not Christians.
Christians come in different kinds: Roman Catholic Oriental Orthodox Eastern Orthodox Old Catholic Anglican Protestant
Robert A. Morey thinks the EOC is not Christian. Do you agree with his book?

IS EASTERN ORTHODOXY CHRISTIAN? DR. ROBERT A. MOREY Copyright 2007 by Dr. Robert A. Morey
ISBN-10 1-931230-35-8

Christian Scholars Press
1350 East Flamingo Rd., Suite #97
Las Vegas, NV 89119

EOC = Eastern Orthodox Church

God bless you because of Christ's shed blood and glorious resurrection, and save you by these. Amen.

In Erie Scott Harrington

 

[StMichaelTheArchangel]

1. A gate is not an offensive weapon. Where people get this idea is beyond me.

In Christ's day, when he made this statement. A gate was the defense of a city. It was used to prevent an enemy from getting into the city. The Gate of hell would be a gate used to keep the church out of enemy territory and rescuing people who are in it. This is what Christ promised. Why you want to turn this around and use it to support your church is beyond me.

The true church will teach the true gospel spoken of by Christ. The orthodox church does not teach this gospel. It does not matter if their doctrines have not changed in 4000 years. A 4000 year lie is still a lie.

The point is that Christ built a Church, and the Church will no.t be prevailed against.

2. God promised the spirit would teach all. He is still doing that today. He still teaches me. It is sad that you do not think the spirit would not teach you. The rock is the faith in Christ. We all have that rock. that is what makes us the church. the family of god. Your either in it. or your not. there is no inbetween. God does not know those who are not his (saved) your church does not teach this. They teach that you have to work to earn being a member of gods family. That is not a part of scripture.

Yes, it is part of Scripture that we need works in order to be saved. St James the Apostle said that Faith without works is dead, "You believe God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe--and they shudder!
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? (James 2:19 -21)

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


Martin Luther, who wanted his heresy to become more easily accepted and to please his ego, actually wanted this Epistle of St James to be taken out of the New Testament claiming that is was, "An epistle of straw".



Isn't that amazing? This begs the question, "Who has the rights of the Bible and the right to interpret it?" Its certainly not Martin Luther and the Reformers, nor is it the Roman Catholic Church. The answer lies with the Church Fathers (pastors and teachers) and the 7 Ecumenical Councils (councils of Truth led by the Spirit of Truth) of the Eastern Orthodox Church. Not just anyone can interpret the Bible and to claim that they have the authority to do so. Protestants and all of Christians cannot make their interpretations the absolute interpretation... This is the entire fallacy and failure of Protestantism, and the reason why there are SO many different Christian denominations. It is because the Protestants all think that they have the authority to interpret Scriptures.
Now, you must understand that I am not condemning personal interpretations, only the self appointing of oneself to have the authority to do so. In the Eastern Orthodox Church, we are urged to read the Bible and especially to be led by the Holy Spirit in order to understand them. St John Chysostom, who lived in the 4th century, as a beacon of truth and one of the "Three Holy Heirarchs", said that if we do not read the Holy Scriptures we are in a multitude of evils. "This is the cause of all evils, the not knowing the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how are we to come off safe?" (Hom. IX On Colossians)

St John Chrysostom (Gr. "Golden Tongue"), was and is one of the most prolific ancient Church Fathers who ever lived. He wrote the Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom, which is the service which we celebrate almost every Sunday (unless we have a St Basil the Great Liturgy). St John Chrysostom is a Church Father of great importance and authority. So you think that the Orthodox Church does not allow reading of the Holy Bible? (Go here to read more quotes by him St. John Chrysostom on Scripture).

We have to know who are the right teachers. God said in his word many false teachers would come and distort the truth. They were doing it in Pauls day. He had to send timothy to Ephesus because some elders of that church had distorted truth, and were now teaching a lie. God told Timothy what would be the symbol of truth, and the guidline. Scripture. Without scripture. all we have is a man saying listen to me, I am from god. Don't listen to no body else.

This happened many times in the OT. Where the "leaders" of the temple had distorted truth and made it into a lie. and forced their belief on the people they had power over. This is why Mary was so scared when Jesus spoke against these leaders. She feared for Christ's life because she kew the power the religious leaders had. Because she did not trust God that God would do what he promised through Christ. So what did she say? Jesus has a demon (he was crazy) to try to protect her son.

Your claim that the Teachers of the Orthodox Church are "false teachers" is very wrong. False teachers and heresies come from individual Christians who hold on to their own human minds to interpret the Holy Scriptures without the Spirit of God. In the Ancient Church, the pastors and teachers did not use their minds to interpret the Bible, they used their NOUS and the Holy Spirit. I suggest you look up what that word means, Protestants and Roman Catholic don't even know what the NOUS is because they forgot it when they broke away from the Orthodox Church Here.

You think that the Orthodox Church is a big and bad organization like the Pharisees and Scribes in the time of Jesus? LoL.The Scribes and Pharisees were wiped off the face of the earth during the Siege of Jerusalem You could say that about the Roman Catholic Church in certain points in history, but never about Early Church History. In the Early Church, the Christians and the bishops were being killed, not killing others. Have you ever read the "Martydom of Polycarp" or "The Martydom of Ignatius"? These were early Orthodox Christian bishops who lived in the 1st and 2nd C. Ignatius of Antioch was said to be the disciple of St John the Divine. These were divine men of God who shepherded the flock of God which was among them.

Obeying the words of St Peter,

"Shepherd the flock of God among you, overseeing not by compulsion, but rather willingly, not in fondness for dishonest gain, but rather eagerly;
1Pe 5:3 nor as being masters over the flock under you, but rather being examples to the flock." 1Pe 5:2


For you to try and equate the Early Church as being like the murderous Pharisees and Scribes of Jesus' time is erroneous.

As paul says, Christ took the penalty which was against us, and nailed it to the cross. so we could be set free from the penalty of sin.

Paul tells us through titus that we have a hope (of which our faith is based on) and that hope is "eternal life, which God who can not lie, promised before time began" If I do not have eternal life. I have no hope. If I have no hope. I have no faith.

I have faith in what God said, all who believe in him he will in no means cast out. That whjoever places their faith in him HAS (present tense) eternal life. If this is not true, God lied. Then he is no god at all. So yes. I know I am saved, Because God told me through his word.

\

This is probably where we have the most disagreements and the most bitter strife. Faith vs Works. The idea of "Sola Fide" (Faith Alone), was originally developed by Martin Luther, the ex Roman Catholic priest. Now, the doctrine of Faith Alone is absolutely true, we cannot do anything to save ourselves; BUT, we must participate in the Divine Energies of God in order to receive Salvation IN THIS LIFE. In order to have salvation we have to become hallowed in both body and soul.

The Orthodox Church believes that Christ came down from Heaven in order to take away sin from us and to restore us to Paradise and communion with God. This being so, since Christ has poured out the Holy Spirit on the earth, we as adopted children of God have the ability to participate in Paradise once again. This Paradise can be participated in here and now. Through Holy Baptism, the soul then becomes a temple of the Holy Spirit. This is only accomplished through Water Baptism. Through the Holy Eucharist and the Body and Blood of Christ, we receive the Fountain of Immortality.


One last thing: I am shocked on how many Christians I have met online who do not believe that we need water baptism to be saved. Jesus AND the Apostles all taught water baptism as a means of salvation. Holy Baptism is one of the Mysteries of God. If you do not have Holy Baptism you do not have the Holy Spirit.
If you say otherwise you are not obeying the Scriptures, Jesus and the Apostles. This is an Apostolic command which was handed down to us.

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

Dear Shroom2

You seem to be saying something too. I am not saying that. There are Christians outside of the Orthodox

Church. But if you are logical, you must be saying there's something wrong with Orthodoxy. You haven't

proved that there is though. Through my many posts on "faith alone", I showed it is based upon Martin

Luther's thinking, not Saint Paul's words in the NT.

And Luther rejects James as the work of no Apostle. Are you saying the followers of the EOC are not

Christians.

Christians come in different kinds: Roman Catholic Oriental Orthodox Eastern Orthodox Old Catholic

Anglican Protestant

Robert A. Morey thinks the EOC is not Christian. Do you agree with his book?

IS EASTERN ORTHODOXY CHRISTIAN? DR. ROBERT A. MOREY Copyright 2007 by Dr. Robert A. Morey
ISBN-10 1-931230-35-8

Christian Scholars Press
1350 East Flamingo Rd., Suite #97
Las Vegas, NV 89119

EOC = Eastern Orthodox Church

God bless you because of Christ's shed blood and glorious resurrection, and save you by these. Amen.

In Erie Scott Harrington

Dear friends:

Please see the following reference:

http:// ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/2008/078/review-of-moreys-book-part-1.html

"Robert Morey wrote a book about something he knows very little about. ...

"... Morey seems ignorant of the Icons in the Holy of Holies, in the once Jewish temple.

He also seems ignorant of the fact the the Priest's garment had figures of

pomegranates. And on top of that we don't worship icons, we venerate them. There

is a difference between the two".

God bless us in Christ Jesus. Amen.

In Erie Scott R. Harrington

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

The point is that Christ built a Church, and the Church will no.t be prevailed against.



Yes, it is part of Scripture that we need works in order to be saved. St

James the Apostle said that

Faith without works is dead, "You

believe God is one. You do well. Even the demons

believe--and they shudder!

20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without

works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he

offered Isaac his son on the altar? (James 2:19 -21)

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith

without works is dead also.

Martin Luther, who wanted his heresy to become more easily

accepted and to please his ego, actually wanted this Epistle of

St James to be taken out of the New Testament claiming that

is was, "An epistle of straw".



Isn't that amazing? This begs the question, "Who has the rights of

the Bible and the right to interpret it?" Its certainly not Martin

Luther and the Reformers, nor is it the Roman Catholic Church. The

answer lies with the Church Fathers (pastors and teachers) and the 7

Ecumenical Councils (councils of Truth led by the Spirit of Truth) of the

Eastern Orthodox Church. Not just anyone can interpret the Bible and

to claim that they have the authority to do so. Protestants and all of

Christians cannot make their interpretations the absolute

interpretation... This is the entire fallacy and failure of Protestantism,

and the reason why there are SO many different Christian

denominations. It is because the Protestants all think that they have the

authority to interpret Scriptures.

Now, you must understand that I am not condemning personal

interpretations, only the self appointing of oneself to have the authority

to do so. In the Eastern Orthodox Church, we are urged to read the

Bible and especially to be led by the Holy Spirit in order to understand

them. St John Chysostom, who lived in the 4th century, as a beacon of

truth and one of the "Three Holy Heirarchs", said that if we do not read

the Holy Scriptures we are in a multitude of evils. "This is the cause

of all evils, the not knowing the Scriptures. We go into battle

without arms, and how are we to come off safe?" (Hom. IX On

Colossians)

St John Chrysostom (Gr. "Golden Tongue"), was and is one of the most

prolific ancient Church Fathers who ever lived. He wrote the Divine

Liturgy of St John Chrysostom, which is the service which we celebrate

almost every Sunday (unless we have a St Basil the Great Liturgy). St

John Chrysostom is a Church Father of great importance and authority.

So you think that the Orthodox Church does not allow reading of the

Holy Bible? (Go here to read more quotes by him St. John Chrysostom

on Scripture).


Your claim that the Teachers of the Orthodox Church are "false

teachers" is very wrong. False teachers and heresies come from

individual Christians who hold on to their own human minds to

interpret the Holy Scriptures without the Spirit of God. In the Ancient

Church, the pastors and teachers did not use their minds to interpret

the Bible, they used their NOUS and the Holy Spirit. I suggest you look

up what that word means, Protestants and Roman Catholic don't even

know what the NOUS is because they forgot it when they broke away

from the Orthodox Church Here.

You think that the Orthodox Church is a big and bad organization like

the Pharisees and Scribes in the time of Jesus? LoL.The Scribes and

Pharisees were wiped off the face of the earth during the Siege of

Jerusalem You could say that about the Roman Catholic Church in

certain points in history, but never about Early Church History. In the

Early Church, the Christians and the bishops were being killed, not

killing others. Have you ever read the "Martydom of Polycarp" or "The

Martydom of Ignatius"? These were early Orthodox Christian bishops

who lived in the 1st and 2nd C. Ignatius of Antioch was said to be the

disciple of St John the Divine. These were divine men of God who

shepherded the flock of God which was among them.

Obeying the words of St Peter,

"Shepherd the flock of God among you, overseeing not by

compulsion, but rather willingly, not in fondness for dishonest

gain, but rather eagerly;

1Pe 5:3 nor as being masters over the flock under you, but

rather being examples to the flock." 1Pe 5:2


For you to try and equate the Early Church as being like the murderous

Pharisees and Scribes of Jesus' time is erroneous.


\ This is probably where we have the most disagreements and

the most bitter strife. Faith vs Works. The idea of "Sola Fide"

(Faith Alone), was originally developed by Martin Luther, the

ex Roman Catholic priest. Now, the doctrine of Faith Alone is

absolutely true, we cannot do anything to save ourselves;

BUT, we must participate in the Divine Energies of God in

order to receive Salvation IN THIS LIFE. In order to have

salvation we have to become hallowed in both body and soul.

The Orthodox Church believes that Christ came down from

Heaven in order to take away sin from us and to restore us to

Paradise and communion with God. This being so, since Christ

has poured out the Holy Spirit on the earth, we as adopted

children of God have the ability to participate in Paradise

once again. This Paradise can be participated in here and

now. Through Holy Baptism, the soul then becomes a temple

of the Holy Spirit. This is only accomplished through Water

Baptism. Through the Holy Eucharist and the Body and Blood

of Christ, we receive the Fountain of Immortality.

One last thing: I am shocked on how many Christians I have

met online who do not believe that we need water baptism to

be saved. Jesus AND the Apostles all taught water baptism as

a means of salvation. Holy Baptism is one of the Mysteries of

God. If you do not have Holy Baptism you do not have the

Holy Spirit.

If you say otherwise you are not obeying the Scriptures, Jesus

and the Apostles. This is an Apostolic command which was

handed down to us

.

Dear friend: When you say the doctrine of Faith Alone is absolutely

true, you are right, because you mean the doctrine of Faith Itself is

absolutely true. Truly, we cannot do anything to save ourslves.

Not "faith alone" as Luther meant it: faith minus any works, faith alone

without any works. But faith alone in the sense of faith itself, which is

"faith which worketh through love" (Gal. 5:6), faith alone, faith itself

works through love, is true. But Luther didn't mean "faith itself" by faith

alone. He meant faith without any works whatsoever. Faith MINUS

works.

And James 2:24 says such faith alone (only) does not justify any man.

Because faith WITHOUT works is "dead".

Faith Itself (Eph. 2:8-9) is not alone, but has good works with it (Eph.

2:10).

God bless you. Amen. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[shroom2]

Dear Shroom2
You seem to be saying something too. I am not saying that. There are Christians outside of the Orthodox Church. But if you are logical, you must be saying there's something wrong with Orthodoxy.

Yes, I believe there is much wrong with it. The whole idea of "apostolic succession" is not biblical, and to think the EO is THE church Christ built is ridiculous.

You haven't proved that there is though. Through my many posts on "faith alone", I showed it is based upon Martin Luther's thinking, not Saint Paul's words in the NT.
And Luther rejects James as the work of no Apostle. Are you saying the followers of the EOC are not Christians.

If you confess Jesus as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead, you are Christian (Rom 10:9).

Christians come in different kinds: Roman Catholic Oriental Orthodox Eastern Orthodox Old Catholic Anglican Protestant

I cannot help but notice you did not mention a single Protestant denomination, they are all variants of Orthodoxy / Catholicism. Do you believe Protestants can be Christian?

Robert A. Morey thinks the EOC is not Christian. Do you agree with his book?

IS EASTERN ORTHODOXY CHRISTIAN? DR. ROBERT A. MOREY Copyright 2007 by Dr. Robert A. Morey
ISBN-10 1-931230-35-8

Christian Scholars Press
1350 East Flamingo Rd., Suite #97
Las Vegas, NV 89119

I have not read the book, so cannot comment.

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

Yes, I believe there is much wrong with it. The whole idea of "apostolic

succession" is not biblical, and to think the EO is THE church Christ built is ridiculous.


If you confess Jesus as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead, you are Christian (Rom 10:9).


I cannot help but notice you did not mention a single Protestant denomination, they are all variants of Orthodoxy / Catholicism. Do you believe Protestants can be Christian?


I have not read the book, so cannot comment.

3 simple questions for you, then, shroom2:

1. What IS the true Christian Church (the One founded by Jesus Christ: cf. Matt. 16:18)?

2. Where is the true local Christian Church (one of the true Christian churches) located in your local area?
You don't have to be too specific: just give the nation, country, and city

3. Who are the true Christian teachers in this located in your local Church?

My answer.

1. The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, also known as the Orthodox Church, the Orthodox

Catholic Church.

2. Erie PA USA Russian Orthodox Church of the Nativity of Christ (Old Rite)
Church of the Nativity

3. Vladyka (Bishop) John, Archpriest Fr. Pimen (Steven) Simon, Fr. Theodore Jurewicz, Fr. Hieromonk German Ciuba (and a few others (not certain who).

3. Just as the saints (Saints) in the New Testament had a name
Peter, Paul, Andrew, John, James, Jude, Matthew, Mark, Luke, Thomas, Philip, Bartholomew, Stephen,
Barnabas, Timothy, Titus, Stachys, Onesimus, Apollos, Silas, Mary Magdalene, Martha, Mary,
The Blessed Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary, and so on.
Today the saints and believers have names.

The Name above all names: Our LORD God and Saviour, JESUS CHRIST, the Only-Begotten Son and Word of God.


Protestants are Christians. Catholics are Christians. Oriental Orthodox are Christians. Anglicans are
Christians. Old Catholics are Christians.

Do you believe Eastern Orthodox (Orthodox Christians), can be Christian?

GOD BLESS YOU. Amen.

In Erie Scott R. Harrington

PS Is the EOC is not THE Church that Christ built, which Church IS?
According to Ephesians 4, there can be only One Body of Christ, not many. Many members of the Body, but only One Body Herself (see Matthew 16:18 (My Church), 1 Timothy 3:15, THE Church of the living God (not the churches).
In Revelation the churches are the Church in seven different locations. All one Church. Various spiritual problems in the seven locations.

 

[shroom2]

3 simple questions for you, then, shroom2:

1. What IS the true Christian Church (the One founded by Jesus Christ: cf. Matt. 16:18)?

The body of Christ. The church is made up of Christians, people who have acted on Romans 10:9. As I said, there are Christians in probably every denomination.

2. Where is the true local Christian Church (one of the true Christian churches) located in your local area?
You don't have to be too specific: just give the nation, country, and city

I fellowship with people in Roanoke, VA.

3. Who are the true Christian teachers in this located in your local Church?

The person at whose house we meet usually teaches, although sometimes others do as well. I also listen to teachings from Truth Or Tradition and The Living Truth Fellowship .

My answer.

1. The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, also known as the Orthodox Church, the Orthodox
Catholic Church.

2. Erie PA USA Russian Orthodox Church of the Nativity of Christ (Old Rite)
Church of the Nativity

3. Vladyka (Bishop) John, Archpriest Fr. Pimen (Steven) Simon, Fr. Theodore Jurewicz, Fr. Hieromonk German Ciuba (and a few others (not certain who).

3. Just as the saints (Saints) in the New Testament had a name
Peter, Paul, Andrew, John, James, Jude, Matthew, Mark, Luke, Thomas, Philip, Bartholomew, Stephen,
Barnabas, Timothy, Titus, Stachys, Onesimus, Apollos, Silas, Mary Magdalene, Martha, Mary,
The Blessed Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary, and so on.
Today the saints and believers have names.

All Christians are saints. (By the way, dead saints are not to be worshiped or prayed to. And Mary was not "ever virgin". After Jesus was born, Mary and Joseph gave birth to other children.)

The Name above all names: Our LORD God and Saviour, JESUS CHRIST, the Only-Begotten Son and Word of God.

Yes, Jesus Christ is Lord, the only begotten Son of God.

Protestants are Christians. Catholics are Christians. Oriental Orthodox are Christians. Anglicans are Christians. Old Catholics are Christians.

Do you believe Eastern Orthodox (Orthodox Christians), can be Christian?

As I said, any person who confesses Jesus as Lord and believes God raised him from the dead is saved. If a person does this, he is saved, no matter what denomination he is.

GOD BLESS YOU. Amen.

In Erie Scott R. Harrington

PS Is the EOC is not THE Church that Christ built, which Church IS?

The body of Christ. No denomination or religion is THE church Christ built.

According to Ephesians 4, there can be only One Body of Christ, not many. Many members of the Body, but only One Body Herself (see Matthew 16:18 (My Church), 1 Timothy 3:15, THE Church of the living God (not the churches).

Yes. The church spoken of in the epistles is the body of Christ. One church (not one denomination or religion).

In Revelation the churches are the Church in seven different locations. All one Church. Various spiritual problems in the seven locations.

Right.

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

The body of Christ. The church is made up of

Christians, people who have acted on

Romans 10:9. As I said, there are Christians in probably every denomination.


I fellowship with people in Roanoke, VA.

The person at whose house we meet usually teaches, although

sometimes others do as well. I also listen

to teachings from Truth Or Tradition and The Living Truth Fellowship .


All Christians are saints. (By the way, dead saints are not to be

worshiped or prayed to. And Mary was

not "ever virgin". After Jesus was born, Mary and Joseph gave birth to

other children.)


Yes, Jesus Christ is Lord, the only begotten Son of God.


As I said, any person who confesses Jesus as Lord and believes God

raised him from the dead is saved. If a person does this, he is saved,

no matter what denomination he is.


The body of Christ. No denomination or religion is THE church Christ

built.


Yes. The church spoken of in the epistles is the body of Christ. One

church (not one denomination or religion).


Right.

Dear shroom2:

What if a person does all the above, but lives in sin? Is he "saved"?

In any denomination?

Is that possible?

Can salvation be reduced to a calculated formula?

No.

And about supposedly "dead" saints.

No Orthodox Christians worship dead saints. Besides, departed saints

are not dead. They are alive in heaven. To be absent from the body is

to be present with the LORD. That is Scripture. See also Wisdom (of

Solomon) 3:1-9 RSV New Oxford Annotated Bible. This is the Bible.

To say it is not is a mistake, andJudaism. Not faith in Christ. Which has

the longer canon of the Old Testament.

As for Mary, the Mother of our Lord, there is no Scripture that says,

"The children of Mary and Joseph".

On that account alone, it proves by that absence of words that Mary did

not have any children with Joseph. If it were true, it would be in the

Bible. Since it is NOT in the Bible, it is not true.

Also, there is a verse that proves Mary is ever-virgin. See Mark 6:3

ONT (Orthodox New Testament, volume 1; p. 148. "This is the

carpenter, the Son of Mary, and Brother of Iakovos [James], and Joses,

and Juda, and Simon, is it not?" If James, Joses, Judah, and Simon,

were sons of Mary, Mark 6:3 would not say "the" Son of Mary, but

would say "a" Son. There are no accidents. Mark calls Jesus "the" Son

of Mary, because He is the Only-begotten Son of Mary. If He is not the

Only-begotten Son of Mary, He is not the Only-begotten Son of God,

and He is not God. It follows, logically, of necessity, and there is no

gainsaying against sound Biblical logic.

As for Matthew 1:25, we must understand the word until in context. It

says, "and was not knowing her until she brought forth her Son, the

firstborn; and he called His name Jesus." ONT, p. 2.

Saint John Chrysostom: He uses herein the word "until", not that thou

shouldest suspect that afterwards he did come to know her, but in

order that thou mayest learn that before the birth the Virgin was wholly

untouched. Because it is usual in Scripture oftentimes to do this, to use

this expression without reference to limited times ... When discoursing

also of God, Scripture says, "From the age until the age Thou art

[Psalm 89 (90):2], not as fixing limits in this case ... So then here

likewise, it uses the word "until" to make certain what was before the

birth; but as to what follows, it leaves thee to make inference."

[Homily 5, Commentary on St. Matthew the Evangelist, PG 57:77 (col.

58)].

Until in the Bible.

"Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto (until) the day

of her death". 2 Samuel 6:23 KJV

Are we to assume Michal had a child after the day of her death? No.

Are we to assume Mary knew Joseph after Christ was born? See how

until can be used of something that never happens.

There is not one verses that identifies the brothers of Jesus and His

sisters as children of Mary and Joseph together. Brothers and sisters

are words that can mean any close relative, which can mean cousins.

No Christian in the first 1000 years of the Church believed Mary and

Joseph has marital relationship with each other. If Christ is not the

only Son of Mary, then Mark 6:3 is false and the whole New Testament

cannot be said to be without error. Simple truth.

But Mark 6:3 says "THE Son of Mary", not "A" Son.

God bless you. AMEN. In Erie PA USA Scott R. Harrington

 

[superdave5221]

Dear eternallygratefull:

How do "I" know that "you" aren't steering "me" wrong? Cite one author between 100 and 200 AD that

teaches your unique doctrines, and maybe you will convince me!

I'm not sure which doctrines you are referring to, but there are many doctrines that the Christian church takes for granted today that were not taught in the second century. The fact that certain doctrines were not articulated is not an indication that they were not believed in principle. The source for these doctrines (the teachings of Jesus Christ and the apostles as recorded in the Holy Scriptures) was present from the beginnings of the Church, but the questions that were being asked later, which brought about the revealing of these doctrines from Holy Scripture, were not being asked in the second century. Holy Spirit works at His own schedule and reveals truth at His own discretion. The doctrine of the Trinity was not articulated until the fourth century. I guess you would throw that out as well? How about the vicarious atonement? That was not articulated until the 12th century. You don't believe that either?

 

[Abiding]

Great point superdave..and also.hardly anything was hammered out till heresies came.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The point is that Christ built a Church, and the Church will no.t be prevailed against.

the point is the gates of hell will not hold the church (its mortal enemy back) not that the church will be destroyed. Jesus was sending the church into the world. (satan's domain" and he is telling them the gates of hell will not hold them back.

so your use of the verse was in error! God never promised that the church would not split. be infiltrated with false doctrines etc etc. all we have to do is look at the hcurches of the NT and revelation (the churches God spoke to in rev 1-3) to see that this happened, and is still happening today.

Yes, it is part of Scripture that we need works in order to be saved. St James the Apostle said that Faith without works is dead, "You believe God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe--and they shudder!
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? (James 2:19 -21)

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

What James said is mere BELIEF is not enough. If one says they have FAITH (which is more than mere belief) But have not works their faith is dead. meaning they might have belief, but they DO NOT HAVE FAITH.

If you would read you would see what James said.

How many works did james say would prove someone had no faith? Zero.

James did not say we are saved by faith and a list of works which would perfect that faith and thus save us.

He said that if we proclaim to have faith. But have ZERO works, our faiht is dead. Zero faith = Zero salvation.

Why would you want to cause james to contradict paul?

Paul said we are not saved by works of the law. Works which were before the law (abraham in rom 4) and and good deeds at all (eph 2 8-9 with titus 3: 5)

Paul said if we ARE saved because we HAVE faith. Eph 2: 8-9) we WILL DO WORK (eph 2: 10)

James did not contradict. this. He said if you do not do the works paul said you would do in Eph 2: 10, you do not have the faith paul said we must have in eph 2: 8-9, the faith which saves.

Sorry. I can't pic and chose verses to support my doctrines, and ignore the rest of Scripture.

Martin Luther, who wanted his heresy to become more easily accepted and to please his ego, actually wanted this Epistle of St James to be taken out of the New Testament claiming that is was, "An epistle of straw".

Luther was wrong because his, like your church, misinterpreted James. If he would have interpreted it right. he would not have needed it removed. Because it supported his theory. James is talking about people who do zero works. Not people who do some works. Work is an automatic outpouring from faith/ If you have salvic faith, you will work. If not, you will not work.

Isn't that amazing? This begs the question, "Who has the rights of the Bible and the right to interpret it?"

When you stand in front of God, you will be saved or condemned on you YOU interpreted it. God is not going to give you a "get out of Jail free card" if you listened to a man who claimed infallibility and he got it wrong. You are expected to seek out truth, and make your decision based on how you interpret scripture. Not someone else. Thus, Everyone has the rights of the bible and interpretation. However, Nothing guarantees they will get it right. This is proven by the fact elders in the NT CHurch had changed, and came to a different gospel.

Its certainly not Martin Luther and the Reformers, nor is it the Roman Catholic Church. The answer lies with the Church Fathers (pastors and teachers) and the 7 Ecumenical Councils (councils of Truth led by the Spirit of Truth) of the Eastern Orthodox Church. Not just anyone can interpret the Bible and to claim that they have the authority to do so. Protestants and all of Christians cannot make their interpretations the absolute interpretation... This is the entire fallacy and failure of Protestantism, and the reason why there are SO many different Christian denominations. It is because the Protestants all think that they have the authority to interpret Scriptures.

you know what saddens me. It saddens me that many catholic, orthodox and protestant people will be condemned to hell because they have bought into this lie of listen to me only. No one else is given the authority by God to interpret. And in doing so, these people blindly follow men, who most likely have been led astray themselves. and bought into satans lie.

Now, you must understand that I am not condemning personal interpretations, only the self appointing of oneself to have the authority to do so. In the Eastern Orthodox Church, we are urged to read the Bible and especially to be led by the Holy Spirit in order to understand them. St John Chysostom, who lived in the 4th century, as a beacon of truth and one of the "Three Holy Heirarchs", said that if we do not read the Holy Scriptures we are in a multitude of evils. "This is the cause of all evils, the not knowing the Scriptures. We go into battle without arms, and how are we to come off safe?" (Hom. IX On Colossians)

St John Chrysostom (Gr. "Golden Tongue"), was and is one of the most prolific ancient Church Fathers who ever lived. He wrote the Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom, which is the service which we celebrate almost every Sunday (unless we have a St Basil the Great Liturgy). St John Chrysostom is a Church Father of great importance and authority. So you think that the Orthodox Church does not allow reading of the Holy Bible? (Go here to read more quotes by him St. John Chrysostom on Scripture).

Litergies are vain repetitions. There is a difference between reading something and actually studying something. Why else do you think people continually use verses taken out of context to support their doctrines? Why else do you think people will take one or two verses out of james and say it proves we must work to earn salvation? If they would study they would see James was talking about people who have zero works, are hearers and not doers, who merely believ, but do not trust. and are just playing a game, People called licentious by Jude, Who play a game, thinking all they have to do is believe and they are ok. but do not have to change their life, Of course not. They have not admited they have sinned (repented) thus do not trust that they need saved, they are no different than a works based person. Both thoughts come from pride. Pride of I am not bad enough, or I can work to make up for my sin. Both reject Grace and mercy. It all comes from not studying the word.,

Your claim that the Teachers of the Orthodox Church are "false teachers" is very wrong. False teachers and heresies come from individual Christians who hold on to their own human minds to interpret the Holy Scriptures without the Spirit of God. In the Ancient Church, the pastors and teachers did not use their minds to interpret the Bible, they used their NOUS and the Holy Spirit. I suggest you look up what that word means, Protestants and Roman Catholic don't even know what the NOUS is because they forgot it when they broke away from the Orthodox Church Here.

3808 νοῦς (nous), νοός (noos), νοΐ (noi), νοῦν (noun), ὁ (ho): n.masc.; ≡ Str 3563; TDNT 4.951—1. LN 26.14 mind, the psychological facility of understanding, reasoning and deciding (Ro 7:25; 1Co 14:14); 2. LN 30.5 way of thinking, attitude (Col 2:18; Col 2:23 v.r.); 3. LN 27.49 διανοίγω τὸν νοῦν (dianoigō ton noun), cause open the mind, to understand something not previously understood (Lk 24:45+)

Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains : Greek (New Testament) (electronic ed.). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

You mean opening the mind? WHat does this have to do with anything? God will open the heart of anyone who seeks him. Did he not say he comes knocking on everyones door. If we open it, and ask him in he will come dine with him? God does not keep his knowledge to just a few select induviduals. He opens it up to everyone. He also does not force his belief on everyone, which is exactly what your saying he does. Your saying that if an orthodox person who is supposed to be an infallible interpretor lets his old sin nature get to him, and he starts to change his belief, God will over rule his free will and force him to stay with the truth. Sorry thgis is just not true.

I say the orthodoxy teaches a false truth because their doctrines do not line up with the word of God. Not because I don't trust them.

You think that the Orthodox Church is a big and bad organization like the Pharisees and Scribes in the time of Jesus? LoL.The Scribes and Pharisees were wiped off the face of the earth during the Siege of Jerusalem You could say that about the Roman Catholic Church in certain points in history, but never about Early Church History. In the Early Church, the Christians and the bishops were being killed, not killing others. Have you ever read the "Martydom of Polycarp" or "The Martydom of Ignatius"? These were early Orthodox Christian bishops who lived in the 1st and 2nd C. Ignatius of Antioch was said to be the disciple of St John the Divine. These were divine men of God who shepherded the flock of God which was among them.

Where you there? did you see all this happen? You taking the word of men, and putting them equal with scripture. This is exactly how the pharisees got their power. And exactlyu how rome (east and west) Got their power. You say you are not like them. But history shows different.

the pharisees were not wiped off the earth, they are still around today, they just have a different name, They have been around since Adam and Eve, ALl with different names, but the same belief system. I obay Gods laws, Thus by my good deeds and following religiouys tradition I will be made acceptable to God and be saved.

Obeying the words of St Peter,

"Shepherd the flock of God among you, overseeing not by compulsion, but rather willingly, not in fondness for dishonest gain, but rather eagerly;
1Pe 5:3 nor as being masters over the flock under you, but rather being examples to the flock." 1Pe 5:2


For you to try and equate the Early Church as being like the murderous Pharisees and Scribes of Jesus' time is erroneous.

1. I am talking about their belief system,
2. ALthough the roman church (east or west) does not do this know. For over 1000 years. anyone who went against them was banned from society, Jailed, or executed. And you say your church does not act like them? You need to study true history more my friend!

This is probably where we have the most disagreements and the most bitter strife. Faith vs Works. The idea of "Sola Fide" (Faith Alone), was originally developed by Martin Luther, the ex Roman Catholic priest. Now, the doctrine of Faith Alone is absolutely true, we cannot do anything to save ourselves; BUT, we must participate in the Divine Energies of God in order to receive Salvation IN THIS LIFE. In order to have salvation we have to become hallowed in both body and soul.

The Orthodox Church believes that Christ came down from Heaven in order to take away sin from us and to restore us to Paradise and communion with God. This being so, since Christ has poured out the Holy Spirit on the earth, we as adopted children of God have the ability to participate in Paradise once again. This Paradise can be participated in here and now. Through Holy Baptism, the soul then becomes a temple of the Holy Spirit. This is only accomplished through Water Baptism. Through the Holy Eucharist and the Body and Blood of Christ, we receive the Fountain of Immortality.

Grave is freely given. It comes from the same word from which we get Cherity, (charis) it means something which is given with nothing asked in return. A gift. If we have to work to earn grace, or to recieve it, it is not grace, it is working for a reward. You church and other churches can twist this all they want with big words and ideas. But when anyone is trying to earn grace., they are trying to earn a reward. And grace is thrown out the door.

One last thing: I am shocked on how many Christians I have met online who do not believe that we need water baptism to be saved. Jesus AND the Apostles all taught water baptism as a means of salvation. Holy Baptism is one of the Mysteries of God. If you do not have Holy Baptism you do not have the Holy Spirit.
If you say otherwise you are not obeying the Scriptures, Jesus and the Apostles. This is an Apostolic command which was handed down to us.

Thats funny. Many gentiles received the HS before they were immersed in water (acts 10)

John spoke of water baptism. But said Jesus baptism would be far greater, for he would baptize with the HS. Jesus mentions that we would be baptized with the HS. Scripture talks of us being baptized with the holy spirit into the body of Christ, and the circumcision of our souls.

Yet people want to give credit to man for baptizing us, instead of giving credit to God, who actually does the work of placing us into (baptizing) God. through Christ. And limit the HS to the acts of men.

Water baptism is the nt lie of the OT Circumcision. Many knew the this work done by men was a teaching aid, to show us what God would do to us through Christ. Baptism is the NT version of this. And still people want to do like the pharisees and jews did even as the church was being formed. Add it to the gospel of Christ.

Paul makes it clear, we are circumcised not by the hands of men, But the hands of God. BURIED WITH HIM THROUGH BAPTISM, in the WORKING OF GOD who RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD.

The spiritual cleansing we get (whether you call it circumcision or baptism) is performed By God. Not man.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

"Worshipping the Bible is Idolatry, "Bibliolatry"," Seeing God's Breath

http:// godsbreath.wordpress.com/2007/06/29/worshipping-the-bible-is-idolatry-bibliolatry/

God save us from every form of spiritual slavery/idolatry/blasphemy/heresy/sin. Amen. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

Having a high reverence and love for the word of God is healthy. Just because a Christian honors and reverences the Holy Bible, doesn't mean he or she is worshiping it.

 

[Red33]

Can a man truly worship God without the Spirit and the without the truth revealed by the light of God's word (Jn 4:23,24)? Is it possible that the spirit within man can be the candle of the Lord without the Holy Spirit and without being quickened by the light of God's word (Prov 20:27, Ps 18:28)? Can a man worship and have fellowship with the living God without walking in the light as He is in the light (1Jn 1:7)? The true worshipers that the Father is seeking are those that walk in the same light and esteem the word above His name (Ps 138:2). Do we, as believers, give the word of God the same esteem as God does? God has never separated His word from who He is and has even clarified in the scriptures that the Word was God (Jn 1:1-3). Do we separate the word from who God is and lightly esteem it, or do we esteem the Word as God and live by every word of it (Mt 4:4)?

Ps 56, 4,5,10

4 In God I will praise his word, in God I have put my trust; I will not fear what flesh can do unto me.
5 Every day they wrest my words: all their thoughts [are] against me for evil.
10 In God will I praise [his] word: in the LORD will I praise [his] word.

2Pt 3:16-18

16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen

Ps 68:11

11 The Lord gave the word: great [was] the company of those that published [it].

God's words are as eternal as God is ...

Mt 24:35

Heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall never pass away.

 

[shroom2]

What if a person does all the above, but lives in sin? Is he "saved"?

If a person does what it says in Romans 10:9, he is saved.

In any denomination?

Is that possible?

Can salvation be reduced to a calculated formula?

No.

Do you believe Romans 10:9?

And about supposedly "dead" saints.

No Orthodox Christians worship dead saints. Besides, departed saints

are not dead. They are alive in heaven. To be absent from the body is

to be present with the LORD. That is Scripture. See also Wisdom (of

Solomon) 3:1-9 RSV New Oxford Annotated Bible. This is the Bible.

To say it is not is a mistake, andJudaism. Not faith in Christ. Which has

the longer canon of the Old Testament.

Dead people are dead. Dead Christians will be raised when Christ returns to gather the church ("the dead in Christ shall rise")

As for Mary, the Mother of our Lord, there is no Scripture that says,

"The children of Mary and Joseph".

On that account alone, it proves by that absence of words that Mary did not have any children with Joseph. If it were true, it would be in the Bible. Since it is NOT in the Bible, it is not true.

Strange reasoning, Scott.... The bible does not say there is gravity, nor does it say New York is a city. Are those things not true?

The bible DOES say:

Mat 1:25) And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn (implies there were others) son: and he called his name JESUS.

Mark 6:3) Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Gal 1:19) But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

Jesus had half brothers and sisters, fathered by Joseph and Mary.

Also, there is a verse that proves Mary is ever-virgin. See Mark 6:3 ONT (Orthodox New Testament, volume 1; p. 148. "This is the carpenter, the Son of Mary, and Brother of Iakovos [James], and Joses, and Juda, and Simon, is it not?" If James, Joses, Judah, and Simon, were sons of Mary, Mark 6:3 would not say "the" Son of Mary, but would say "a" Son. There are no accidents. Mark calls Jesus "the" Son of Mary, because He is the Only-begotten Son of Mary. If He is not the Only-begotten Son of Mary, He is not the Only-begotten Son of God,

Again, bad reasoning. A woman can have sons by more than one father. It happens all the time. Jesus Christ is God's only begotten Son, he is not Mary's only son.

and He is not God.

He is not God. He is the only begotten Son of God.

It follows, logically, of necessity, and there is no gainsaying against sound Biblical logic.

Sound biblical logic dictates that Jesus had half brothers and sisters. Some religions insist he does not, but that is not according to scripture.

As for Matthew 1:25, we must understand the word until in context. It says, "and was not knowing her until she brought forth her Son, the firstborn; and he called His name Jesus." ONT, p. 2.

Saint John Chrysostom: He uses herein the word "until", not that thou shouldest suspect that afterwards he did come to know her, but in order that thou mayest learn that before the birth the Virgin was wholly untouched. Because it is usual in Scripture oftentimes to do this, to use this expression without reference to limited times ... When discoursing also of God, Scripture says, "From the age until the age Thou art [Psalm 89 (90):2], not as fixing limits in this case ... So then here likewise, it uses the word "until" to make certain what was before the birth; but as to what follows, it leaves thee to make inference." [Homily 5, Commentary on St. Matthew the Evangelist, PG 57:77 (col. 58)].

Until in the Bible. "Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto (until) the day of her death". 2 Samuel 6:23 KJV

Are we to assume Michal had a child after the day of her death? No.

Are we to assume Mary knew Joseph after Christ was born? See how until can be used of something that never happens.

There is not one verses that identifies the brothers of Jesus and His sisters as children of Mary and Joseph together. Brothers and sisters are words that can mean any close relative, which can mean cousins.

No Christian in the first 1000 years of the Church believed Mary and Joseph has marital relationship with each other.

You have no way of proving that statement. I submit that it is simply not true.

If Christ is not the only Son of Mary, then Mark 6:3 is false and the whole New Testament cannot be said to be without error. Simple truth.

But Mark 6:3 says "THE Son of Mary", not "A" Son.
God bless you. AMEN. In Erie PA USA Scott R. Harrington

Again, faulty reasoning to try and make the bible fit your religion. I am Rob, the son of my mother. That statement does not prove or disprove that I am the only son of my mother.

God bless you, as well.

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

Yes, I believe there is much wrong with it. The whole idea of "apostolic succession" is not biblical, and to think the EO is THE church Christ built is ridiculous.


If you confess Jesus as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead, you are Christian (Rom 10:9).


I cannot help but notice you did not mention a single Protestant denomination, they are all variants of Orthodoxy / Catholicism. Do you believe Protestants can be Christian?


I have not read the book, so cannot comment.

The whole idea of Bible alone is not Biblical. So even if apostolic succession were not Biblical, that would prove nothing. The Word Trinity is not in the Bible. So in the strictest sense of the word, it is not Biblical. But it is Biblical in the sense that the Trinity concept, if not the word Trinity itself, is taught by the whole Bible.
A Christian doctrine does not have to be Biblical to be true. The Bible is only one part of true Christian Tradition. There is spoken oral Tradition from the 12 Apostles (cf. 2 Thess. 2:15), and other written traditions from the early Fathers of the early Church.
See: Sparks, Jack N., editor. The Apostolic Fathers. Copyright by Thomas Nelson, Nashville, TN. Minneapolis, MN: Light and Life Publishing Company.
I did mention every Protestant denomination under the general word Protestant. Protestantism is a collection of diverse Protestant denominations. Even Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses are Protestant in the widest sense of the term, as Protestant means any religion in Christianity that is not
Eastern Orthodox
or Oriental Orthodox
or Old Catholic
or Anglican
or Roman Catholic
Anglican is special: is it both Protestant and a hybrid that is kind of semi-Protestant. It is really Protestant, but it tries or in some cases is still trying to be Roman Catholic, even though it is not Roman Catholic it is kind of double minded in a certain sense
there are Protestants who are Christians
then there are Protestants who are not Christians
Jehovah's Witnesses
Christadelphians
Branhamites
Armstrongists
Swedenborgians
Unification "church" people (Moonies)
Mormons
United Pentecostal
Way International
and in a certain sense Seventh Day Adventists are not Christian. They are sort of semi-Christian
they aren't as bad as the above denominations, as they kind of believe in the Trinity, but their doctrines make them at least semi-cultic

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

If a person does what it says in Romans 10:9, he is saved.

Do you believe Romans 10:9?

Dead people are dead. Dead Christians will be raised when Christ returns to gather the church ("the dead in Christ shall rise")

Strange reasoning, Scott.... The bible does not say there is gravity, nor does it say New York is a city. Are those things not true?

The bible DOES say:

Mat 1:25) And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn (implies there were others) son: and he called his name JESUS.

Mark 6:3) Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Gal 1:19) But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

Jesus had half brothers and sisters, fathered by Joseph and Mary.

Again, bad reasoning. A woman can have sons by more than one father. It happens all the time. Jesus Christ is God's only begotten Son, he is not Mary's only son.

He is not God. He is the only begotten Son of God.

Sound biblical logic dictates that Jesus had half brothers and sisters. Some religions insist he does not, but that is not according to scripture.


You have no way of proving that statement. I submit that it is simply not true.

Again, faulty reasoning to try and make the bible fit your religion. I am Rob, the son of my mother. That statement does not prove or disprove that I am the only son of my mother.

God bless you, as well.[

/quote]
You have no way of proving what you say is true. What verse in the Bible says "the children of Joseph and Mary". Since it doesn't say that, you have no way of proving Mary and Joseph had children together. You are merely ASSUMING that brothers and sisters means children of Mary and Joseph. Sometimes in the OT, the word brother is used for a close relative. As Lot was called Abraham's brother. When he was really his uncle.
Look it up!
You have not proved that Mary had sons by "more than one father". Are you calling the Virgin Mary immoral? Are you failing to call her "blessed" among women?

Firstborn means first born. It merely means born first. It does not necessitate that there must be other children. If you know the Bible, you know that.

If a person does Romans 10:9, but lives a life of sin, and breaks the ten commandments, is he saved?

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

Can a man truly worship God without the Spirit and the without the truth revealed by the light of God's word (Jn 4:23,24)? Is it possible that the spirit within man can be the candle of the Lord without the Holy Spirit and without being quickened by the light of God's word (Prov 20:27, Ps 18:28)? Can a man worship and have fellowship with the living God without walking in the light as He is in the light (1Jn 1:7)? The true worshipers that the Father is seeking are those that walk in the same light and esteem the word above His name (Ps 138:2). Do we, as believers, give the word of God the same esteem as God does? God has never separated His word from who He is and has even clarified in the scriptures that the Word was God (Jn 1:1-3). Do we separate the word from who God is and lightly esteem it, or do we esteem the Word as God and live by every word of it (Mt 4:4)?

Ps 56, 4,5,10

4 In God I will praise his word, in God I have put my trust; I will not fear what flesh can do unto me.
5 Every day they wrest my words: all their thoughts [are] against me for evil.
10 In God will I praise [his] word: in the LORD will I praise [his] word.

2Pt 3:16-18

16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen

Ps 68:11

11 The Lord gave the word: great [was] the company of those that published [it].

God's words are as eternal as God is ...

Mt 24:35

Heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall never pass away.

Why is it that the Lutheran, Anglican, Calvinist, and Methodist Protestants all believe IN the Bible, and in these words from the Bible that you quote, but they DON'T believe John 15:26?
The majority of Protestants FALSIFY John 15:26? WHY? Granted, some Protestants, like Pat Robertson, believe John 15:26. Rev. Robertson says a lot of strange bad political and radical things. But at least in his book "Answer's to Life's Probing Questions", he gets John 15:26 right.

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

If a person does what it says in Romans 10:9, he is saved.

Do you believe Romans 10:9?

Dead people are dead. Dead Christians will be raised when Christ returns to gather the church ("the dead in Christ shall rise")

Strange reasoning, Scott.... The bible does not say there is gravity, nor does it say New York is a city. Are those things not true?

The bible DOES say:

Mat 1:25) And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn (implies there were others) son: and he called his name JESUS.

Mark 6:3) Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Gal 1:19) But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

Jesus had half brothers and sisters, fathered by Joseph and Mary.

Again, bad reasoning. A woman can have sons by more than one father. It happens all the time. Jesus Christ is God's only begotten Son, he is not Mary's only son.

He is not God. He is the only begotten Son of God.

Sound biblical logic dictates that Jesus had half brothers and sisters. Some religions insist he does not, but that is not according to scripture.


You have no way of proving that statement. I submit that it is simply not true.

Again, faulty reasoning to try and make the bible fit your religion. I am Rob, the son of my mother. That statement does not prove or disprove that I am the only son of my mother.

God bless you, as well.

The son meaning a son is not literally true. I'm talking about literal truth. Protestants believe the Bible is literally true, except when it doesn't please them. They believe only the Scriptures they want to believe, and these they misinterpret anyway.
For more on the ever virginity of Mary, see Ezekiel 44:1-3.
GOD BLESS YOU.

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

If a person does what it says in Romans 10:9, he is saved.

Do you believe Romans 10:9?

Dead people are dead. Dead Christians will be raised when Christ returns to gather the church ("the dead in Christ shall rise")

Strange reasoning, Scott.... The bible does not say there is gravity, nor does it say New York is a city. Are those things not true?

The bible DOES say:

Mat 1:25) And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn (implies there were others) son: and he called his name JESUS.

Mark 6:3) Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Gal 1:19) But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

Jesus had half brothers and sisters, fathered by Joseph and Mary.

Again, bad reasoning. A woman can have sons by more than one father. It happens all the time. Jesus Christ is God's only begotten Son, he is not Mary's only son.

He is not God. He is the only begotten Son of God.

Sound biblical logic dictates that Jesus had half brothers and sisters. Some religions insist he does not, but that is not according to scripture.


You have no way of proving that statement. I submit that it is simply not true.

Again, faulty reasoning to try and make the bible fit your religion. I am Rob, the son of my mother. That statement does not prove or disprove that I am the only son of my mother.

God bless you, as well.

You use the Bible to try to make the Bible fit your religion that Mary had children with Saint Joseph.
It isn't in Church Tradition. And the Church comes from God (Matt. 16:18, 1 Tim. 3:15). The Church that Christ founded never believed anything other than that Mary is Ever-Virgin. Therefore it is true, because the gates of hell (mouths of heretics) cannot prevail against the Church Christ founded.

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

Having a high reverence and love for the word of God is healthy. Just because a Christian honors and reverences the Holy Bible, doesn't mean he or she is worshiping it.

Protestants love THE WAY THEY USE THE BIBLE MORE than the way the Bible itself teaches. They love 500 years of Protestant traditions more than the traditions of the early Church. Protestantism wasn't taught in the first 100 years of the early Church. Therefore, PROTESTANTISM IS NOT TRUE.
The Protestants quote the Church Fathers only when they want to prove things, TRY to prove things, that THE CHURCH FATHERS NEVER BELIEVED.