The Torah is God’s way (1 Kings 2:1-3), the truth (Psalms 119:142), and the life (Deuteronomy 32:46-47), and the way to know the Father (Exodus 33:13), and Jesus embodied the way, the truth, and the life, and the way to know the Father through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to it (John 14:6-11). In other words, Jesus is God’s word made flesh, so what he said was in affirmation of obeying God’s word, not in contrast with it.
Your ways Lord
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You missed something that is absolutely critical to right understanding.
Jesus did not say, "I embody the way, the truth, and the life." Rather, He said, "I AM the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
If you try to come to the Father through the law, you will be rejected. If you try any other way, you will be rejected. If you come humbly through Jesus Christ HIMSELF, you will be accepted.
That is not what He said in that passage. It's not even close.
Jesus did not say, "I embody the way, the truth, and the life." Rather, He said, "I AM the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
If you try to come to the Father through the law, you will be rejected. If you try any other way, you will be rejected. If you come humbly through Jesus Christ HIMSELF, you will be accepted.
That is not what He said in that passage. It's not even close.
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Indeed, in Ephesians 2:8-10, we are made new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul denied that we can earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, being made to be a doer of good works in obedience to God’s law is nevertheless a central part of God’s gift of salvation. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so doing those works has absolutely nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation as the result, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of them is part of His gift of salvation. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith alone. Jesus saves is from our sins (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God’s law (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it.
I am still concerned whether or not we are in agreement with my choice of wording? You cited Paul together with works. Yes, AFTER being saved and brought nigh to God by Christ, we become a ' 'peculiar people zealous of good works'' AFTER accepting the ''gift''. You seem unwilling to accept it as a gift just as the Jews of old who became unworthy of everlasting life. (Acts 13)
You are in search for peace through works. But it is still the same, ‘’whosoever believes’’ (Jn 3:16) are accepted and instantly righteous through faith alone and not to be works-diluted. But, here we go again, people just can’t bring themselves to accept the ‘’gift of God, not of works’’. But that’s exactly what the ‘devout’ did in Paul’s time,
‘’On the next Sabbath, , they were filled with envy , , Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you [Jews] first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles , , But the Jews stirred up the devout and prominent women and the chief men of the city, raised up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, ,’’ (Acts 13:44-46, 50)
You are in search for peace through works. But it is still the same, ‘’whosoever believes’’ (Jn 3:16) are accepted and instantly righteous through faith alone and not to be works-diluted. But, here we go again, people just can’t bring themselves to accept the ‘’gift of God, not of works’’. But that’s exactly what the ‘devout’ did in Paul’s time,
‘’On the next Sabbath, , they were filled with envy , , Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you [Jews] first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles , , But the Jews stirred up the devout and prominent women and the chief men of the city, raised up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, ,’’ (Acts 13:44-46, 50)
A gift can be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work contributes nothing to detract from the fact that the opportunity to drive it was completely given to them as a gift. Likewise, God’s gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing God and Jesus (John 17:3) and the gift of God’s law is His instructions for how to have that experience, not for how to earn it. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to graciously teach us how to experience knowing God and Jesus, which is why Jesus said in Luke 10:25-28 that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments, and something that we inherit is a gift.
Our gift of salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were just saved from the penalty of our sin while our lives continued to be directed and being doers of sin, so there must be an aspect of our gift of salvation from the we are experiencing in the present by directing our lives towards being a doer of God’s law. In Titus 2:11-13, we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is the aspect of His gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present. In Titus 2:14, Jesus did not just give himself to pay the penalty for our sins, but also to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works.
I think that it is clearer to translate Ephesians 2:8-10 as saying salvation is not earned as the result of our works rather than saying that it is not of works, especially given that it describes our salvation as being made to be doers of good works and Titus 2:11-13 describing our salvation as being trained by grace to do those works. The position of faith alone denies that we are required to have first done enough works in order to earn our salvation as the result, but does not deny that being a doer of good works is intrinsically part of what God’s gift of salvation is. We can do works that express our faith, such as with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith by his works, so everyone who is a doer of the same works as James has faith in Jesus and it is by that faith alone that we are being saved.
Our gift of salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were just saved from the penalty of our sin while our lives continued to be directed and being doers of sin, so there must be an aspect of our gift of salvation from the we are experiencing in the present by directing our lives towards being a doer of God’s law. In Titus 2:11-13, we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is the aspect of His gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present. In Titus 2:14, Jesus did not just give himself to pay the penalty for our sins, but also to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works.
I think that it is clearer to translate Ephesians 2:8-10 as saying salvation is not earned as the result of our works rather than saying that it is not of works, especially given that it describes our salvation as being made to be doers of good works and Titus 2:11-13 describing our salvation as being trained by grace to do those works. The position of faith alone denies that we are required to have first done enough works in order to earn our salvation as the result, but does not deny that being a doer of good works is intrinsically part of what God’s gift of salvation is. We can do works that express our faith, such as with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith by his works, so everyone who is a doer of the same works as James has faith in Jesus and it is by that faith alone that we are being saved.
Whew, that was close, for a minute there I thought you had just covered up your earnest appraisal of the initial faith in Christ alone? But now that I see you wish to insult God's grace for the glory He alone gets, my conscience is clear and now I see you have chosen to indeed make salvation by His hand null and void. I get it: ''Works and faith earns salvation'' See, doesn't take that long to say. I can't say it was pleasant but I can retain a clearing for myself. Praying God speed his best towards you.
The Bible frequently connects our faith in God with our obedience to Him, such as in Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God’s commandments, so what I’ve said in favor of obedience to God’s commandments in in complete accordance with having faith in Christ alone. God is trustworthy, therefore His instructions are also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in His instructions, it it is contradictory to think that we should have faith in God, but not in His instructions, and it is contradictory to think that we should have faith in God’s word made flesh, but not in Gods word.
I have not said anything to insult God’s grace, but have quoted verses that show that our salvation involves God being gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law.
I’ve not said anything detract from the glory that God alone gets, but rather our good works in obedience to God’s law testify about His goodness, which is why Jesus said that they give glory to the Father (Matthew 5:16).
I have not stated that works and faith earn our salvation, but rather I am completely opposed to that position and I have stated that that doing works has nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation as the result. The Bible can speak against being required to do something for an incorrect reason without speaking against being required to do it for the reasons for which God commanded it, so the Bible can support both the position that our salvation requires us to choose to be a doer of the law and the position that our salvation does not require us to obey it in order to earn it as the result. For example, in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, and in Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey him, so our salvation requires us to be workers of lawfulness not in order to earn it as the result, but because that is the way to know Jesus.
I have not said anything to insult God’s grace, but have quoted verses that show that our salvation involves God being gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law.
I’ve not said anything detract from the glory that God alone gets, but rather our good works in obedience to God’s law testify about His goodness, which is why Jesus said that they give glory to the Father (Matthew 5:16).
I have not stated that works and faith earn our salvation, but rather I am completely opposed to that position and I have stated that that doing works has nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation as the result. The Bible can speak against being required to do something for an incorrect reason without speaking against being required to do it for the reasons for which God commanded it, so the Bible can support both the position that our salvation requires us to choose to be a doer of the law and the position that our salvation does not require us to obey it in order to earn it as the result. For example, in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, and in Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey him, so our salvation requires us to be workers of lawfulness not in order to earn it as the result, but because that is the way to know Jesus.
There are three kinds of law: moral law, civil law and ceremonial law. We all have to follow the civil law, like "the law of the land " Follow traffic laws. etc. Ceremonial Law is what the old testament rules and laws given to Moses. But the Moral Law is still in place today! I don't see anywhere that the 10 commandments should not be kept by believers. In fact, the "law of Love" is more strict than this! It says that if you even look at a woman with lust in your heart you have already committed adultery! Or if you hate your brother, you are a murderer! I agree with Dino246 when he writes, "We fulfill the law by loving God and loving our neighbour, not by striving to avoid sin." Our love for Yahuah and for his son Yahushua that keeps us from sinning! Because we agape them!!!
The issue of whether followers of God should follow what He has commanded in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow is independent of the issue of what I happened to be doing. I do keep the Law of Moses, but even if I were actively trying to commit as much sin a as possible, then that would just mean that I would need to repent, not that I was wrong about the fact that followers of God should follow what He has commanded in accordance with the example that Jesus set for us to follow. Paul never stopped identifying as a Pharisee (Acts 23:6), so most of the New Testament was written by a Pharisee, who instructed us to be imitators of him as he is of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1), so thank you.
he, God Father by Son first took away all sin that brought death. Jesus separated sin and death, done once for all, to choose to either believe it or not and then get imputed the new life in Daddy's spirit and Truth, The Holy Spirit. being our guide
Hebrews 8:11
and they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shallknow me, from the least to the greatest.
God Father and Son as Won for us the people is now our personal treacherous, believe, see and knowing in thanksgiving and praise being freed also Psalm 100:4, 103:12 Ezekiel 36:26
Yet, please read it all in context thank you
Hebrews 8:11
and they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shallknow me, from the least to the greatest.
God Father and Son as Won for us the people is now our personal treacherous, believe, see and knowing in thanksgiving and praise being freed also Psalm 100:4, 103:12 Ezekiel 36:26
Yet, please read it all in context thank you
We are free to create however many categories of law that want and to decide for ourselves which laws best fit into which of our categories, but we should not interpret the authors of the Bible as though they had in mind a set of laws that we created without establishing that they had in mind an identical set of laws, however, the Bible never even refers to the categories of moral, civil, and ceremonial law. For example, I could categorize God’s laws based on which part of the body is most commonly used to obey/disobey them, such as with the law against theft being a hard law, but just because I can do that does not establish that the authors of the Bible used the same categories or that they would agree with me that the law against theft best fits as a hand law. So I would be making the same sort of error that you are making if I were to interpret the Bible as saying that we no longer need to follow hand laws.
The existence of the category of moral law would imply that we can be acting morally while disobeying the laws that aren’t in that category, however, there are no examples in the Bible where disobedience to God was said to be moral and I see no justification for thinking that it can ever be moral to disobey God. Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to be in God’s likeness by being a doer of His character traits in obedience to Him, so all of God’s laws are inherently moral laws. To claim that some of God’s laws are not moral laws is to claim that God made a moral error about what ought to be done when He gave those laws and is therefore to claim to have greater moral knowledge than God.
Everything that God has commanded is in regard to how to love Him and our neighbor, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them, so the position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey the commandments that hang on them. Loving God and our neighbor and avoiding sins are two sides of the same coin, so we can’t do one without also doing the other.
The existence of the category of moral law would imply that we can be acting morally while disobeying the laws that aren’t in that category, however, there are no examples in the Bible where disobedience to God was said to be moral and I see no justification for thinking that it can ever be moral to disobey God. Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to be in God’s likeness by being a doer of His character traits in obedience to Him, so all of God’s laws are inherently moral laws. To claim that some of God’s laws are not moral laws is to claim that God made a moral error about what ought to be done when He gave those laws and is therefore to claim to have greater moral knowledge than God.
Everything that God has commanded is in regard to how to love Him and our neighbor, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them, so the position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey the commandments that hang on them. Loving God and our neighbor and avoiding sins are two sides of the same coin, so we can’t do one without also doing the other.
