Zionist re-education programs (get them while their hot!!!)

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Jan 31, 2009
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#21
there was always been wars I not sure of your point here. but I think these video leans toward anti-god instead of Building or edifying God, I don't think you intend any good with these. but to answer your question why should Christians side with the jews, Is cause they are God's chosen people, they are The kinsman of our Lord Jesus. and God said that He would bless those that blessed Israel and curse those that cursed Israel. and I disagrre with your statement about native Indains they did not allow us to take their land. they are still here and they were defeated by lies and broken promises , but this was only after beaten down by warfare, to say that the indains allowed us to take their land is a very bad way of describing the history of the Natives indains. and The Bibles says that ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED!!!! I am getting a very bad feeling about you, well maybe not you but the people you have allowed to teach you about the Bible and the God Of the Bible. you can not study the Holy Bible and not see that the Jews are and will be God's chosen people. Only a twisted hateful doctrine would teach otherwise . I will pray for you in your search for the truth.

Ro 11:25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Ro 11:26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:Ro 11:27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
 
Jul 17, 2009
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#22
I have said before that I don't know what to think about 'Jews' or what people to consider the Jews...and yes, I lean towards what most people would negatively call replacement theology...because I think any Jew that truly worships God can only do it through Jesus Christ...and the ones who don't CANNOT get to God by any other means.
The term "Replacement theology" is mostly based on dispensationalism. A way of dividing the New Testament era into "ages" or "dispensations". It's not so much that we believe that the promises made to Israel were "replaced" but "continued".

We have to ask ourselves if God made a promise about the City of God to His people regardless of the stipulation "so long as they obey" or a promise about a Mediterranean strip of sand to a geo-political and widely varying group of Jewish sects/denominations that reject His Son - which is a rejection of Him.

That it is prophesied that they will corporately convert at some point in time is another issue. We also have to wonder if then all Jews, sleeping and on earth will be converted. In other words, is basically anyone that converts to Judaism, "saved" then? Or will Judaism as it is known simply become "Christian"?

That being said, I do not think your arguments against Zionism make sense based on scripture...though I do not know what to think of ZIonism myself...

The Lord 'DROVE' out nations before the Jews in the promised land...and ordered that every man, woman, and child be slaughtered or else they would become a snare to them...you look at that in today's world and you have the reason why so many CHristian's give way before the wicked, they put up with wickedness in their midst...but anyway, if the Lord had told the Jews to slaughter everyone in the land that He was giving them again as an inheritance, THAN who is man to stand against that? Do you NOT remember what happened to the Jews who refused to enter the promised land after the dessert?
But see, the only way we can reconcile the Old Testament "promises" is to question the promises themselves and dice them up into dispensations. We also get into the "literal" and the spiritual. There are Jews that aren't even Zionists. There are Jews that see the promise land as more than just a geographical location. The true promise land being the Holy City that will descend to earth, the New Earth, the New Heaven - the Kingdom of God.

We can look at the Temple or Tabernacle. Who is the Temple? Who is the Tabernacle? If the Jews are "blinded" then are they not looking to re-build a temple that actually points to the true Tabernacle, the True Temple (which they can't see)? Has God promised to give them a Temple made of Hands while the Gentile dogs get to worship in the True Temple?

Therefore, perhaps the Lord did give them that land and if so, you cannot claim mercy or being 'more gentile/mor humane/more loving' than God...because the wicked perhaps cannot live in his promised land, and the wicked I am referrring to is anybody who does not worship the true God of heaven and earth, of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
This is such a dangerous and counter view for a Christian to take. We are basically saying that it's okay to stone people. That God's chosen people are split into two groups. Christians that are supposed to be loving and forgiving and be internally what the Israelites were not able to achieve through the externals of the law. And the Jews, that have God's blessing to do exactly the thing that wound up forcing them into Exile the first couple of times and to boot, in the "promised" land!

???


It's not that hard to understand once it's explained properly. Recommend
A[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]rnold Fruchtenbaum or similar. [/FONT]I used to believe in replacement theology until I read his works. Then it all made sense.
I'll look into Fruchtenbaum. But let me throw this out there. I don't consider "replacement" theology to be replacement theology. I consider it to be ecclesiology. In other words, if you hold a certain ecclesiastic view, then that's going to effect (color) the way you view other things, like dispensations, the "promises", doctrinal things and even Christ himself. So, I would say that, depending on your ecclesiology, this might be the reason why whatever it is Fruchtenbaum offered, makes sense.

Romans 11:28 says,
"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes."

They are enemies for our sakes means that if they never became God's enemy , we gentiles would never have become God's friends. So even them being enemies is to our benefit. It most certainly does not mean that we should treat them as our enemies. In Paul's writings in places he refers to his Israelite brethren and wishes they could be saved. He never talks about them as mortal enemies but considers them to be brethren, of sorts. The second thing it says is they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers/ancestors. So we shouldn't think they are rejected completely, hated, or "anti christ satan worshippers under the curse of a hexagram" as Cup of Ruin said. God loves them just as God loved us in Christ.
I totally agree. But let me make a distinction in regards to "enemy". Anyone that rejects Christ is an "enemy". Sounds harsh but we have to remember our parentage. ALL are made in His image. So, what we seek in the faces of every human we come across, regardless of their religion, age etc. (good Samaritan parable) is God Himself! God is all of humanity's natural Father. When we reject our Father we ask that we be adopted by the Father of Lies. What is the lie? That God is not our Father. We must recognize that God can squeeze Sons of Abraham out of the rocks. We can wait for the Jews realize that the messiah has come but it doesn't mean that the things that go against the very teachings of Christ should be supported. A Christian response should be to stop the violence and start doing as they were originally called to do, to be a light unto the world, seek justice, peace and mercy.

And it's totally nuts that we seem to support their persecution of the Christians.

???

So the reason why many Christians support Israel is because the Israelites are our brethren and more like disobedient children to the same Father, temporarily placed to one side for punishment until the fullness of the gentiles come in. They are like the natural born child who rebels, we gentiles are like the adopted child who is faithful (through Christ).
Then we should be a good younger brother, yes? And tell our foolish older brother to stop beating us and return home. We shouldn't be applauding his blind disobedience.
 
Jul 17, 2009
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#23
Ro 11:25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Ro 11:26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:Ro 11:27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
My comment about the Indians was in regards to the various ways we justify their "actions". We say, because they were their "first" then they should be able to deal with the inhabitants in whatever way they please. Was it a Christian thing to do when the Puritans.

Romans 9:30-33
The first answer to the paradox of Jewish unbelief is from God's standpoint: His sovereign will (vv. 6-29). The second answer to the paradox is from humanity's standpoint (9:30-10:21): faith. For "the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith" (1:17) equally for Jews and Gentiles. The Gentiles, who had been unconcerned about righteousness now attain it by their faith in Christ. God mercifully overlooks their former unrighteousness practiced in ignorance (Acts 17:30). By contrast the Jews fail to attain even the righteousness of the law, for they do not pursue the lay by faith (v. 32) but by works. Seeing only the letter of the law, not its spirit, they miss Christ in the law and try to keep the commandments apart from Him. They substitute what was "shadow" (Col. 2:16, 17; Heb. 10:1) for substance. Jesus Christ becomes their stumbling block (v. 32).

10:1-3
Paul wishes nothing but good for the people of Israel. He prays for their salvation, and knows of their zeal for God (v.2). But their zeal is without insight into God's righteousness (v.3) in Christ. By rejecting the gospel and adhering to the law, they seek to establish their own righteousness. Their ignorance of God's righteousness, a rejection of Christ Himself, is willful and self-imposed.

10:4
Christ has always been the way of salvation in both Testaments. Christ puts an end to the law as a way for people to try to gain righteousness without Him (v. 5). Thus, He terminates the Old Covenant without nullifying its law as useless. For He fulfills the law. His righteousness is superior to that of the law. Everyone who believes in Christ participates in His incomparable righteousness.

10:5-13
The way of the law and the way of faith (v. 6) are contrasted. Whereas mere obedience to the law has always failed, faith in Christ as Lord (v. 13) always succeeds (vv. 11-13). For: 1) Faith does not doubt, though righteousness is beyond human possibility without Christ (v. 6). 2) Faith is not a distant accomplishment but is near (v.8), having a vision of Christ as present and easily accessible (vv. 6-8). (3) Faith transforms the whole person; the soul (heart, vv. 8-9) working with the body (mouth) makes it real (vv. 8-10). (4) True faith is accessible to all eually, as even the OT prophets teach (vv. 11-13).

10:11-13
Believing and confessing are OT themes-- Isaiah emphasizing the faith of the heart (v. 11) and Joel, the confession of the mouth (v.13). Both prophets teach that grace and faith are universal: God makes NO DISTINCTION (v.12) between persons. All may come freely! if they will.

10:14-21
From 9:1-10:13 Paul has left the Jews with no excuse for rejecting the Gospel. Paul insists God fulfilled His part completely. The Jews had extraordinary opportunities to come to faith. For God sent His message through preachers (v.15) and throughout all creation (v. 18). Israel did indeed hear (vv. 16, 18), but did not believe (vv. 16,21). Therefore, God turned to the Gentiles, who heard and believed (vv. 19,20). The Jews of Jesus' time demanded a sing, yet they always had a higher sign than miracles; they had God's own words, and creation itself. When they failed to heed the prophets, God gave them a sign of fulfilled prophecy, the conversion of the Gentiles. Jealousy (v. 19) is a powerful motivator. To see those deemed far inferior to you, whom you detest, adopted and inheriting your promises and dreams should arouse great indignation.

11:1-10
Jewish unbelief in Christ raises the question whether God cast away His people? And the answer is "no". For had He done so, He would have saved NONE of them. Paul himself, an Israelite, was not cast away (v.1); and there is a REMNANT (v.5) , a minority, of Jews who choose to believe. Elijah testifies to this, for he thought he was the only one left (vv. 2-4). As only a few heeded Elijah in his day, so only a few heed Jesus, the Apostles and Paul (9:27, 29; 1 Thess. 2:14-16) in theirs.

God's grace saves the willing, not the unwilling; those who will receive grace by faith and obey God (vv. 5,6). Israel is not willing,for she seeks (v.7) righteousness on her own terms: through the works of the law, not through the grace of Christ. She stubbornly and freely hardens herself in unrepentance (2:4). God does not cast the people away; they remove themselves. God has given them a spirit of stupor (v.8).

11:11-15
Has Israel stumbled that it should fall permanently? Since the people have fallen away because of Christ, are they beyond salvation? No, for though Israel's failure to believe, salvation has come to the Gentiles (v. 11). Further, through the Gentiles' faith, Israel's opportunity for salvation is renewed. God's presence among the Gentiles provokes the Jews to jealousy and anger (vv. 11,14; 10:19) that they might believe and experience the fullness (v.12) of grace. As their being cast away (v.15) is caused by their own unbelief (vv.20,23), their return through faith would be so glorious, it would be as life from the dead (v. 15), the final resurrection itself.

11:16-22
Paul admonishes Christian Gentiles not to be boastful and contemptuous toward unbelieving Jews. For (1) Israel's heritage is holy and ought to make Christians humble. Jewish tradition and righteous Jews are the root (v.16). Gentile believers are a wild branch grafted in (v.17). Thus, the Church is ONE with Israel, as its consummation, its ultimate fruition, the true fulfillment of Israel. (2) Israel's unbelief is a warning to the Church to remain faithful. We also will be cut off (v.22) unless we continue in faith. God has both goodness and severity (v. 22) -- He respects man's free choices.

11:25-27
Here is Paul's final answer to the paradox of Jewish unbelief, which is the revelation of a mystery (v.25) from God and which censures conceit by Christian Gentiles. For while the Gentiles are being gathered in between Christ's two comings, so are the elect among the Jews. Then ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED (v. 26) --- that is, TRUE ISRAEL (see 9:6), those who TRULY believe, not all physical descendants of Jacob.

11:28,29
True Israel is those who freely believe, the elect of God.


-- Orthodox Study bible
 
Jul 17, 2009
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#24
Some of the articles reveal the author's political leanings and might have (probably) made their "reporting" a little, er, suggestive. The Palin article is a good example. Still, it reveals that people that might not separate Christianity from the actions of those who call themselves Christian, have valid reasons for rejecting what is being projected as "Christian"....


Jews against Zionism

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

Not in My Name

http://www.nimn.org/

Gulf between Judaism and Zionism

The Great Gulf between Judaism and Zionism






CHRISTIAN ZIONISM:


  • [FONT=Callisto MT,Georgia,Book Antiqua,Palatino,Times New Roman,Serif][FONT=Callisto MT,Georgia,Book Antiqua,Palatino,Times New Roman,Serif]
  • Donald Wagner: Christian Zionists, Israel and the 'second coming'
  • C. E. Carlson: Why Judeo-Christians Support War
  • Gary North: Fundamentalism's Bloody Homeland for Jews
  • Grace Halsell: Armageddon: Zionism's Diabolical Goal
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Christian Zionists, or dispensationalists, give Israel total support because they think there has to be an Israel there, a place — not for Jews, but for the battle of Armageddon, which they actually believe must occur. It's part of the required steps, they believe, that will lead to their Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ.[/SIZE][/FONT]​
  • Zion's Christian Soldiers
  • Carol Valentine: The Traitors Among Us
  • Ronald Bleier: In the Beginning, There Was Terror
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]The effects of the dispossession of the Palestinians and other Arabs are with us to this day, in the shattered lives of the millions of people directly affected and also as a sign of the West's war against the entire Arab nation and Muslims everywhere. Arguably, the original sin of Zionism and its effects on the peoples of the Middle East were central to the motivation behind the events of 9/11, and the most important consequence of which is the ongoing "war on terrorism" that is smothering our political landscape.[/SIZE][/FONT]​
  • Xymphora: Dick Cheney and the American Likudniks
  • Alton Raines: Zionism — The Occult Guild Of Antichrist
  • Jason Blain: The Pentateuch
  • Xymphora: Christianity Without Christ
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Simon Cozens proposes ... that American Christianity — referring to what is variously called American Evangelism, Christian Zionism, or Dominionism, and comprising much of mainstream American Protestantism — isn't really Christianity at all. It seems they've taken the goriest bits from the Old Testament, added the Book of Revelations and a smattering of very Aryan and militaristic visual images of Jesus, and purport to call it Christianity.[/SIZE][/FONT]​
  • Xymphora: On a Learjet to hell
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1][Jerry] Falwell was the pioneer in tying American Christian Evangelism to the extreme Israeli right.[/SIZE][/FONT]​
  • JP Briggs II, Ph.D., and Thomas D. Williams: Bush, Mideast Wars and End-Time Prophecy
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]... end-timers all agree that the establishment of Israeli hegemony over the biblical lands and the rebuilding of the ancient Jewish temple are preconditions for Christ's return. From this belief derives the unwavering support of end-time Christians for Israel. Both dominionists and dispensationalists call themselves "Christian Zionists." ... [A]lthough a succession of Israeli prime ministers has courted the American end-timers (the Christian Zionists) and declared them Israel's "greatest friends," the Israelis don't accept the end-time theology one wit. ... However ... the Israelis also know that the end-time Christian Zionists are a lobby that can deliver US support for Israeli hard-line positions on arms, West Bank settlements, negotiations with the Arabs, and Iran.[/SIZE][/FONT]​
  • Xymphora: Deep Palin
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Palin was secretly chosen by a cabal of Christian Zionists ...[/SIZE][/FONT]​
  • F. William Engdahl: Christian Fundamentalism Permeates the Republican Party: Sarah Palin's links to the Christian Right
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Sarah Palin is a product of an extreme fringe of the American Evangelical movement known variously as the Third Wave Movement, also known as the New Apostolic Reformation, or as Joel's Army, a part of what is called Dominionism. ... [/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]As one researcher familiar with the history of the Third Wave Movement or Dominionism describes, Dominionism "is based on the idea that in the end times there will be an outpouring of supernatural powers on a group of Christians that will take authority over the existing church and the world. The believing Christians of the world will be reorganized under the Fivefold Ministry and the church restructured under the authority of Prophets and Apostles and others anointed by God. The young generation will form 'Joel's Army' to rise up and battle evil and retake the earth for God."[/SIZE][/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Joel's Army followers are most often labile teenagers and young adults. They are taught to believe they're members of the final generation to come of age before the end of the world. Sarah Palin was twelve when she first came into these circles.[/SIZE][/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Palin recently told interviewer Charles Gibson of ABC News that Georgia should be granted membership of NATO. When pressed on whether this would mean that the US would be obliged to defend Georgia if Russian troops went into the country again, she replied, "Perhaps so. I mean, that is the agreement when you are a NATO ally, is if another country is attacked, you're going to be expected to be called upon and help ... We have got to show the support, in this case, for Georgia." Is this Sarah Palin a stateswoman with foreign policy experience, or is it Sarah Palin the Dominionist who sees a potential war with Russia as part of an 'Elijah/Jezebel showdown on the Earth'?[/SIZE][/FONT]
  • The Deep Politics of God: The CNP, Dominionism, and the Ted Haggard Scandal — Part One and Part Two[/FONT][/FONT]
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#25
Yeah I don't agree with these Christian zionists or whatever. Many don't understand the symbolism in biblical prophecy and so they only get involved in political world events that their eyes see because they interpret prophecy with their natural mind and take it all literally. Makes good movies but doesn't do any justice to the many sensationalist views out there.
 
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Cup-of-Ruin

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#26
The Bibles says that ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED!!!! .

Israel has already been saved, Israel are a people not a geographical location, Israel were to recieve a new name and be saved by God, as per Jeremiah 31:31-38 and confirmed in Hebrews 8:8-12. Obviously you are not reading the Old Covenant scripture and New Covenant scripture. The children of Israel are a people and Israel as a military state meets none of the identifying marks of Israel. The remnant of Judah and Benjimin were the first to be saved by Christ and then the House of Israel whom were scattered and divorced from God were to be found by the House of Judah as Jesus Christ sent His Apostles and diciples out from the House of Judah to divorced Israel, as He said "I come only for the lost sheep of Israel" Why? Because Judah was already saved, they followed Christ immediately, they knew their God and their God knew them.

The military zionist state of "Israel" under the Babylonian Hexagram and two rivers flag, is the fullfillment of prophecy Rev. 2:9 - The Jews who lie and are the Synagogue of Satan! As we know from the Old Testament the "Jews" translated from the Chaldee Yehuwdiy - which means slave or subject of the land of Judea, and the "Jews" were indeed slaves and subjects of the House of Judah, they were decendants of Esau/Edom and are first introduced in II Kings 16:6 as enemies and usurpers of israel, which is also fullfillment of the prophecies regarding the usurping of Jacob by the servant Esau, which is what we see now in the world, the "Jews" believe that Esau their father should have recieved the blessing and not Jacob and they believe Jacob deceived Esau, but God is quite clear on to whom the blessing went.
 
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Cup-of-Ruin

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#27
images.jpg

The true 'wailing wall'...
 
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