Predestination is misunderstood...

Genez · Apr 29, 2024

After we get saved there comes a period when we explore and discover what happened to us...

How long should we keep dwelling upon it?
All our life on earth?

How much more is there to know?

............

reneweddaybyday · Apr 30, 2024

studier said:

Do you believe each gospel records separate events ? ... that Jesus healed 3 different people of demon possession ? ... and the response of those around Him was basically the same at each different event?

or do you believe Matthew, Mark, Luke all wrote about the same incident ?

studier said:

I provided my understanding of the record:

reneweddaybyday said:

Additionally, I commented on your reasoning ... which I could have left off as it appears to have caused some confusion. sorry about that.

studier said:

again, do you believe these are separate incidents wherein Jesus healed someone of demon possession? ... and the response of those around Him was to claim Jesus cast out devils by beelzebub? ... and the reply of Jesus about satan being divided against himself? ... these were 3 separate incidents ?

studier said:

I believe Matthew, Mark and Luke wrote about the same incident.

studier said:

Matthew 12:27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children [Greek = huios] cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

Luke 11:19 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons [Greek = huios] cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.

The only difference between Matthew 12:27 and Luke 11:19 is that the Greek word huios is translated "children" in Matthew and "sons" in Luke.

However, both Matthew and Luke have Jesus stating "your huios" ... not "my huios".

I do not agree with your article that "the sons in Luke 11 are Jesus' disciples", otherwise Jesus would have said "my huios".

studier said:

do you believe they were speaking of the same event?

studier said:

you said it was my "favored view":

studier said:

I merely clarified that Scripture is my "favored view".
.

studier · Apr 30, 2024

reneweddaybyday said:

Do you believe each gospel records separate events ? ... that Jesus healed 3 different people of demon possession ? ... and the response of those around Him was basically the same at each different event?

or do you believe Matthew, Mark, Luke all wrote about the same incident ?

studier · Apr 30, 2024

reneweddaybyday said:

I think you present it as the same incident but have not proven it. Maybe books like this will help you present your case: Harmony of the Gospels. There may be better links. I found this one quickly.

I think Matthew, Mark and Luke present whatever the incident(s) and present it or them differently as the focus of their writings are different. Whether or not it's the same incident may or may not be important.

reneweddaybyday said:

If the Greek wording is the same, then there is no difference of the phrase in the actual Text no matter the translations. If we look at different translations, we'll typically see differences as you note. But maybe the translation you're using is not the best.

I didn't write the article. It's not mine. I didn't even say I agreed with it. I haven't read it. I noted that it is prominently referenced in several writings and it's easy to see that it questions and works through who the sons are. The reason it is noted in the NET Bible and other works is likely because they deem the argument worthy of consideration.

Jesus said and meant whatever He meant for the purposes of His argument. In my view the logic of His argument is not well understood by most who simply pass on what they've been taught. Articles like the one I referenced can be written by men who do a lot more reasoning on the topic than the casual student or even dedicated and educated students who have never truly focused on the section of Scripture.

Genez · Apr 30, 2024

maxamir said:

Those passages do not speak about people who are unsaved.
You do not warn unbelievers to not be carnally minded.

The passages speak of believers who are failing to live the active spiritual life in Christ.
They were neither hot, nor cold. They became lukewarm.

Lukewarm believers are those who became regenerate and are on fire for the Lord, and over time cooled down into complacency.

They are saved and will be with you in Heaven when the time comes....

maxamir · May 1, 2024

Genez said:

Eph_3:8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,

Eph 3:17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height—
Eph 3:19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

maxamir · May 1, 2024

Genez said:

Christ said it is only those who endure to the end that shall be saved. True Christians backslide but those who die in their sin will prove that they were never really Christians.

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Genez · May 2, 2024

maxamir said:

Jesus was speaking to Jews as a rabbi. He was teaching on the Jewish age which came to a screeching halt at Pentecost and will resume after the Rapture for seven years when Judaism will resume once more.

Those who endure till the end? That speaks of the Jews will remain remain faithful for the seven years of the Tribulation.
Jesus did not teach the mystery of the Church age. God assigned that message to Paul. Jesus was teaching as a rabbi to Jews.

Matthew 24:9-14

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations

for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one

another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will

abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this

gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then

the end will come."

The Gospel of the Kingdom was what Jews believed about the Lord restoring Israel and the Messiah reigning as King over the people of the Jews. What Jesus said is not speaking about the church age..

Acts 1:6

Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying,

“Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”

Before the Church age began (at Pentecost) that was all the Jews knew to know!
Jesus spoke as a rabbi of enduring to the end which was in reference to when the Kingdom to Israel will be restored!
Its not about the Church age.

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who doesn’t need to be ashamed,

correctly teaching the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15

We need to learn better teaching so we can stop repeating 'theological cliches' that are not accurate.

In Christ ............

reneweddaybyday · May 2, 2024

studier said:

I believe Matthew, Mark, Luke wrote concerning the same incident. There is more than one instance of the four gospels setting forth the same incident ... the crucifixion being the most significant and profound.

studier said:

you didn't read the article ... you may or may not agree with it ... yet you submitted the article to reveal "there are different views which seem to deserve some consideration" ... but you haven't considered them ... okey dokey

studier said:

I told you what I believe about the record ... I focused on the section of Scripture and told you why I believe what I believe. If you do not agree, that is fine – we can discuss (reason) or not discuss.

It's one thing to reason out and discuss our understandings of the passage ... and it's quite another to go online, find various articles and/or viewpoints, and submit the various articles/viewpoints without reading or considering what they say.

To me, here's what you're saying "I'm not going to discuss with you, but here are some articles I haven't considered that you should consider" ... then when I do consider and state my understanding ... the response is "well, I didn't say I agreed with the article" ... just sayin'
.

studier · May 2, 2024

reneweddaybyday said:

Actually, I have considered everything I've posted to you:

The Harmony of the Gospels book I linked for you disagrees with your belief that the Luke 11 event is the same one stated in Matthew and Mark. The author's footnotes provide an explanation of his reasoning, which make sense to me. I have considered and am not satisfied that Matthew and Mark and Luke are all dealing with the same event. I have seen some others that also disagree with you and some that agree with you but I've not seen their reasoning explained and you have not provided any reasoning that convinces me to believe as you do.
The excerpt from the article referenced in the NET Bible clearly disagrees with you in regard to who "your sons" are in Luke 11:19, and the NET Bible translators clearly consider the article writer's conclusion as worthy of consideration. So do many other publications as the same footnote shows up in many resources. To be clear, I would have read through the rest of the article if I was able to obtain it apart from paying for it, which as I recall ranged from $30 to a $few hundred. It's not available in the resources I do pay or have paid for and I looked through them all. Since the point re: "your sons" is clear from the NET Bible Notes, I saw no need to take this further than posting the Notes for your consideration as it's clear there are some solid resources that conclude you are or could be wrong in what you believe re: who "your sons" are. I have considered this point and I remain open to different views re: who "your sons" are. I currently see three possibilities for their identity.
I have mentioned other differences in Luke compared to Matthew and Mark. I have considered and have concluded that the differences are worthy of more study.
I have looked many times at and have considered the logic of what Jesus says in the event to be challenging - actually quite challenging once I start posing many questions to the logic to understand what He means.

From your side, I don't at the moment recall any major reasoning from you other than you believe something to be true.

Thanks for your time. I'd prefer to move on from where our discussion has headed. If you'd like to actually discuss the content of the Scripture and the logic of Jesus' argument in Luke 11:17-22 in some detail, please let me know.

maxamir · May 2, 2024

Genez said:

Jesus was speaking to Jews as a rabbi. He was teaching on the Jewish age which came to a screeching halt at Pentecost and will resume after the Rapture for seven years when Judaism will resume once more.

Those who endure till the end? That speaks of the Jews will remain remain faithful for the seven years of the Tribulation.
Jesus did not teach the mystery of the Church age. God assigned that message to Paul. Jesus was teaching as a rabbi to Jews.

Matthew 24:9-14

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations

for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one

another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will

abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this

gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then

the end will come."

The Gospel of the Kingdom was what Jews believed about the Lord restoring Israel and the Messiah reigning as King over the people of the Jews. What Jesus said is not speaking about the church age..

Acts 1:6

Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying,

“Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”

Before the Church age began (at Pentecost) that was all the Jews knew to know!
Jesus spoke as a rabbi of enduring to the end which was in reference to when the Kingdom to Israel will be restored!
Its not about the Church age.

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who doesn’t need to be ashamed,

correctly teaching the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15

We need to learn better teaching so we can stop repeating 'theological cliches' that are not accurate.

In Christ ............

thank you for showing how a persons eschatology can distort the Word of God.

Were these word's written only to Jews?

Mat 10:22 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

2Ti_2:12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.

Rev_2:26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations

Genez · May 2, 2024

maxamir said:

Jews alive during the Tribulation will relate to it if they are being positive to the Lord at that time.

It was also written for us. Written for us to understand, so we can better delineate the plan of God,

maxamir · May 6, 2024

Genez said:

sorry to break the news to you but there are no real Judeans (Jews) alive since AD70 and the tribulation period has been going on for nearly two thousand years. BTW, there is no rapture either.

You have succumbed to what is called Dispensational Theology that places Israel at the centre of prophecy instead of Christ and would do well to watch the video below.

Jesus-Based Prophecy Vs. Israel-Based Prophecy (Prophecy Message #5) - 3/13/22 By Pastor Baldwin

maxamir · May 6, 2024

Cameron143 said:

you firstly need to define what the image of God is biblically and not according to the traditions of men who think it is man's abilities or status above the animals. It is true righteousness, holiness and an intimate knowledge of God as seen below.

Eph 4:24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Col 3:10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,

God is Spirit (John 4:24) and therefore His image is His Spirit which was placed into man at creation but removed when he died spiritually as God had promised below.

Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Man who was originally made in the image and likeness of God and called very good by God (Gen 1:26,31) was no longer like God after the Fall as evidenced in Adam's son being in his cursed image and likeness and not God's (Gen 5:3) which was confirmed when God called man only evil continually (Gen 6:5).

All since the Fall are slaves to sin and Satan, his children (1 Jn 3:8-10), bearing his evil image (John 6:44) and desperately need the grace of God to be born again into a new creature (2 Cor 5:17) and have the image of God restored in Christ who is the Image of God (2 Cor 4:4).

Cameron143 · May 6, 2024

maxamir said:

Restoring something doesn't mean replacing something, but refurbishing it to its former estate.
When a piece of furniture is restored, you can tell it's a piece of furniture. Something about it has been broken or corrupted, but it's still identifiable. So it is with man. The image of God is still present; it has simply been marred and corrupted.
Incidentally, this is why murder is so condemned...by it, the image of God is destroyed.

Genez · May 6, 2024

maxamir said:

What denomination teaches that?

I am not going to argue with you. I know you are wrong. I just want to know who put together what you are squeezing into sausage casings....

Genez · May 6, 2024

maxamir said:

Its Christ who placed Israel in prophesy. But, not in the center as you put it. For Israel in the future will serve Christ on earth after Christ returns to rule the Millennium nations.

Isaiah 65

“See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18

But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19
I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.

20
“Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed.
21
They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22
No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the work of their hands.
23
They will not labor in vain,
nor will they bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the Lord,
they and their descendants with them.
24
Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.
25
The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
and dust will be the serpent’s food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,”
says the Lord.

TheDivineWatermark · May 6, 2024

maxamir said:

It seems you are conflating the common phrase "the tribulation period" (used commonly to refer to the specific, future, LIMITED time-period immediately preceding and LEADING UP TO Christ's Second Coming to the earth at Rev19 [i.e. a 7-yr period / 2520 days]) with that of the following (which is distinct from it):

Luke 21:23b-24 [in the "70ad" section of His Olivet Discourse (vv.12-24a,b)] -

"...for there shall be great distress [G318] in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations:
and Jerusalem shall be trodden down [comp. Rev11:2] of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

[note: the phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles" referring to Gentile domination over Israel (think: Neb's dream / statue / image; with Neb as "head of gold") STARTED in 605/606bc... and which will not be CONCLUDED until Christ's (future) Second Coming to the earth at Rev19; "the TIMES of the Gentiles" NOT to be EQUATED with the concept of "the Church age" i.e. when Gentiles are coming to faith--This phrase is NOT speaking to that issue; and is also distinct from the phrase (and meaning of) "the FULNESS of the Gentiles BE COME IN [G1525]" in Rom11:25]

--"great DISTRESS [G318] in the land, and wrath upon this people" speaks of the events surrounding 70ad

--the common phrase "the tribulation period" speaks ONLY of the 7-yr period [2520 days] immediately preceding and LEADING UP TO Christ's Second Coming to the earth at Rev19 (the time period that Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 and 22:6 calls "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"--NOT things transpiring over the course of some near-2000 years, as the Historicists have it)

TheDivineWatermark · May 6, 2024

^ Let the readers also CONSIDER:

Mat 19:28
And Jesus said unto them [the 12], Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory [compare with Matt25:31-34 for its TIMING (and location )], ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judgING the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luk 22:30
That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judgING the twelve tribes of Israel.

Genez · May 6, 2024

maxamir said:

Really.... do you ever think things through with all the facts?
Or, are you just to be programmed by someone for what appeals to your flesh?

To this day there continues to be real Jewish stock, though living as unbelievers.
What do you think Hitler was after?

Besides.... Look here!

Luke 21:23-24

How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!

There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. They will

fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will

be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Now think! Can you?

It says.. when the times of the Gentiles ends?

What will be left when it ends? More Gentiles??????????

You don't think clearly, Its muddled with hatred. If some warped teaching sits right with your bias?
You will never question what was actually written.

Having grown up in my younger years (before I became a Christian) I witnessed to hatred, and ignorance of certain evil (dumb) Gentiles who loved wrapping your antisemitic false teachings around themselves to form a nonsensical cloak to keep their cold hearts feeling warm in the cold world they live in.

Now.. go back to that secret room behind the wall, before I shoot my water pistol at that sneaky eye peering out...

We used to see that sort of imagery in old horror movies.
Its not Christian sentiment by any stretch of the imagination.
Christians do not hide to ambush others.

It will give others the creeps.

Predestination is misunderstood...

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