Why War in Heaven?

GaryA · Nov 6, 2014

"Yes - this is usually the problem..."

You must let scripture "speak to you" -- you cannot "speak to it" - and hope to obtain a proper and correct interpretation and understanding...

You must not try to "fit" things into scripture -- you must allow "what Scripture says" to simply "speak for itself"...

You must "get" the understanding; you cannot "make" the understanding. Understand?

ELECT · Nov 6, 2014

Jason0047 said:

Well, I was open minded and I checked out the verses and it just doesn't add up, my friend.

First, Luke 10:18 is a prophetic vision of Jesus. For Romans 4:17 says,

"God, ... calleth those things which be not as though they were."

Also, Jesus prophecied his death and resurrection and the faling away of the disciples and judas's betrayal. In other words, just as Jesus was able to forgive sins before he went to the cross, Jesus was letting his diciples know that they have power to overcome the devil because Jesus (Who is God) has already seen His victory over Satan being cast down from Heaven in the future during the End Times.

John 12 confirms that Satan's fall is still yet future.

Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." (John 12:31-32).

Second, if Satan had been cast down as the accuser of the brethren in Luke 10:18, then why does Jesus tell Peter that Satan desires to sift Peter like wheat in Luke 22:31?

Third, in Revelation 12:12 says that when Satan is cast out he has great wrath because he knows he has but a short time. If this was during Christ's ministry and or after his death and resurrection, I would say that 2000 years + is not a short time. Besides, Revelation 17:10-11 says that he that comes (the Beast) will continue a short space. This short space or short time is confirmed for us when the Jews flee to the mountains (i.e. the wilderness) for 1,260 days (Revelation 12:6) when they see the Abomination of Desolation in the Jewish Temple (i.e. When the Anti-Christ descrates the Temple and declares himself to be God). This is the 3 and a half years (Which is the final half of the 7 Year Tribulation, a.k.a. Jacob's Trouble or the Great Tribulation).

In fact, if you were to re-read Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 where it talks about the Fall of Satan, you will notice that the language used to describe his fall (or casting out) from heaven is one that is still yet future. The devil's casting out from heaven takes place during the midpoint of the Tribulation, whereby he will make war with the remnant of the woman's seed (Which are the Tribulation saints who will be beheaded or martyred for Jesus).

Satan was cast out in the begining . When was iniquity found in satan in the past or will that be in the future ?

please stop reading into the bible what you believe let God word speak

sassylady · Nov 6, 2014

During the tribulation the devil will be cast to earth, by means of the war, and that is when things will get worse. Imagine his rage as well as God's wrath. The believers will not be here. Jesus saw the devil cast out of Heaven, but he became the prince of the power of the air and is in the lower part of the heavens right now until he is cast down.

JesusIsAll · Nov 6, 2014

sassylady said:

I also once tended to believe this, of Satan's access to God's heaven, but it has a problem. (Believed for "power of the air" you mention and an extrapolation of Christ's victory of the cross.) But Satan had access, was allowed to approach God, in Job, your usual accuser, therefore having some access to God, well after his rebellion. Here, of the incident in Revelation,

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

It's appears to the contrary here, that Satan has access to God, accusing "before our God day and night," up to the point of being cast to earth, that is, cast out of heaven in the above verse. But it's sort of bizarre an accuser would any longer have an audience in God, regarding those justified in Christ and our Lord's victory over Satan, for all time. The exact prophetic setting of Luke 10:18 is debatable and neither helps much.

Ain't no easy answers to some things! (Still pondering those burning weapons of Ezekiel, same as in decades past, knocking walls down with my head...)

Jason0047 · Nov 6, 2014

GaryA said:

"Yes - this is usually the problem..."

You must let scripture "speak to you" -- you cannot "speak to it" - and hope to obtain a proper and correct interpretation and understanding...

You must not try to "fit" things into scripture -- you must allow "what Scripture says" to simply "speak for itself"...

You must "get" the understanding; you cannot "make" the understanding. Understand?

Are you a Preterist?

jb · Nov 6, 2014

Jason0047 said:

No, I think he's a Baptist...

Jason0047 · Nov 6, 2014

jb said:

Thanks. Well, just looking at his chronology of Olivet Discourse, he believes the Rapture is the gathering of the Elect before Christ's Second Coming. This is a common misconception by many. There are many verses that blow that idea out of the water. Many.

Jason0047 · Nov 6, 2014

Anyways, getting back on track with Revelation 12: Israel is the woman. The devil draws a third of the stars (i.e. these are angels that he gets to rebel against God from heaven). Israel travails in pain awaiting for the Messiah to come. Jesus is born and the devil strives to kill Jesus (as a baby) using Herod.

In the Midpoint of the Tribulation when the Antichrist desecrates the Temple (i.e. the Abomination of Desolations): The Jews flee into the mountains (a.k.a. the wilderness). The devil is then cast down from out of heaven and has great wrath because his time is short (i.e. 3 and a half years or the last half of the Tribulation before Christ's return).

The devil makes war with the remnant of Israel's seed (Which is the Tribulation saints).

Kerry · Nov 6, 2014

Jason0047 said:

Thanks. Well, just looking at his chronology of Olivet Discourse, he believes the Rapture is the gathering of the Elect before Christ's Second Coming. This is a common misconception by many. There are many verses that blow that idea out of the water. Many.

Which ones?

Kerry · Nov 6, 2014

What causes the Antichrist to rise to power? What event takes place that gives him the ability to rule?

kennethcadwell · Nov 6, 2014

Jason0047 said:

This does not match up because Revelation was given to John way after Jesus crucifixion while John was exiled on Patmos.
This Revelation was given to John as future events to take place, not past and future.
Plus you can not say half of Revelation has been filled and half is still to be filled because the bible speaks of the tribulation period being seven years with the last 3 1/2 years being great tribulation as nobody has ever seen before.

You can not say the first 3 1/2 years of tribulation happened way back when Jesus was born, and the second half happens in future events. They run concurrent.

Tintin · Nov 6, 2014

This thread started so promisingly. Now it's just about the Rapture (which isn't even a thing) and the Tribulation period. Don't we have enough of that elsewhere?

kennethcadwell · Nov 6, 2014

Tintin said:

It is kind of hard not to get into the other topics as well for they all tie in together as a list of events that all take place in their proper order.

GodIsSalvation · Nov 6, 2014

Tintin said:

Well in fairness the War in Heaven episode does occur during the Tribulation, so it is sort of impossible to not talk about the Tribulation in regards to this topic.

In my opinion there's not much else to commentate on this topic, Revelation states everything pretty clearly in my opinion.

Jason0047 · Nov 6, 2014

kennethcadwell said:

Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; ~ Revelation 1:19

Revelation chapter 2 and 3 are the report cards on various church's by Jesus Christ. These churches existed during the time of John, and thru out history, and even now. For there are Laodician churches that exist today. That is in fitting the spiritual characteristics of such a church.

Didn't say such a thing. A gap of time (i.e. Age of Grace) exists from the time of Christ and the 7 Year Tribulation which is still yet future.

Trailblazer · Nov 6, 2014

Nicee said:

Lucifer is running a bit rogue now. He does have some restraints put on him by God.
You know some of them ugly nasty thoughts and temptations that may pop into your mind at times? Hello! Meet Lucifer or
his fallen buddies.

In this world today. You might think!...How can people kill, rape, send children and others off into slavery, etc.
This very well could be people acting out on the temptations that Lucifer, or his fallen buddies may give them.

Whats in it for us? As Christian believers in Christ. God watches after us. The temptations from Lucifer is very limited to what he can do. As a true believer in Jesus. We can call on Jesus with his supernatural power for bringing good into our lives. Having a relationship with Jesus. Personally gives me a feeling of bliss and well being.

Whats in it for God?
God gets to send his most powerful Angels to kick tail on Lucifer and his fallen buddies any time he wants.
He can also answer Christians believers prayers to kick tail in the demonic world. What a slap in Satan's face to have some weak human fleshly Christian beings having access to the heavens to do warfare against Satan and his most powerful fallen buddies.

Tintin · Nov 6, 2014

GodIsSalvation said:

Well, maybe. I don't really see how the War in Heaven is seen to be a future event though. By cross-examining the passages I've posted and those from Revelation, it seem to me that it happened long ago in the past. After creation was declared good but before Satan entered the Garden in the form of a serpent. Remember, Revelation isn't always linear. It encapsulates past, present and future events.

Kerry · Nov 6, 2014

Trailblazer said:

What you are describing is a people that have turned their back on God and God said that He would give them over to a reprobate mind. Hence abortion and gay rights and school shootings and injustice and bad leadership. Wow did I just describe America or what? It's like God saying , well if you don't want Me then you get what you want but, don't want what you got.

kennethcadwell · Nov 6, 2014

Jason0047 said:

Yes that was said in Revelation, but this is in reference to what John had been shown at that moment and also to the things that are to take place then and now and future.
The letters to the seven churches were the Lords way of saying to them the things He is pleased with, and the things they need to stop doing that He is displeased with them in.

Then it goes into the events of the tribulation period.
And in this it goes into talking about the war in heaven in chapter 12. This can not be referred to when he first initially was cast out of heaven in a past event because if you cross reference scriptures to similar event in prophecy like as in Isaiah to. They say satan ( dragon ) rises to make war with Micheal and his angels, symbolic that satan had already been cast down and now is trying to rise and make war again to take over heaven. Of course he fails.

The woman pictured here in twelve is Israel ( Jews ) to which our Lord came from, which is why the twelve stars which refer to the twelve Jewish tribes are on her. Satan failed in heaven, so now is and is set to persecuting her offspring which is the true church of our Lord. Because it then says the woman was caught up and protected from satan.

Jason0047 · Nov 6, 2014

Kerry said:

Short Version:

There are some interesting things to notice that are different about the Rapture (i.e. The Appearing) and the Second Coming.

At the rapture, only those who are looking for him will see him:

• Hebrews 9:28 ESV

So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Now contrast that with the second coming to the earth

• Revelation 1:7

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

At the rapture, Jesus comes FOR His church :

• 1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

• John 14:3 -

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also

However, at the second coming (after the tribulation period) , Christ comes WITH His saints.

• Jude 1:14

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints

• Revelation 19:14

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean

At the rapture, the LORD calls His church up to a wedding/marriage

• Matthew 25:10

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

But at the second coming to earth, He is returning from a wedding

• Luke 12:36

And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

Why War in Heaven?

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