All the evidence you will ever need to trash the false pre-trib rapture

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A

AtonedFor

Guest
#1

Unfortunately, there is not enough space to fully quote most of the Scripture references!


If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return of Christ …
the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be gathered at His second coming,
and not at some secret return that precedes His BIG coming at the end of the tribulation!


Matthew 24:21-31 • Might as well get the most obvious proof out of the way first!
“For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world
until this time, no, nor ever shall be. … Immediately after the tribulation of those days
the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear
in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man
coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels
with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds,
from one end of heaven to the other.”


Rapture vs Resurrection • The main difficulty here is our understanding of the resurrection!
John 5:28-29 “… for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear
His voice and come forth — those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.”
Luke 14:14 “… you shall be repaid at the resurrection of the just.”
Acts 24:15 “… there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.”

• The archangel Michael instructs Daniel about the tribulation and the resurrection:
Daniel 12:2 “… many of those that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”

• The passages above plainly state that there are 2 resurrections:
• a resurrection of the good and just … and a resurrection of the evil and unjust.
Revelation 20:4-12
4 “And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them.
Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God,
who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they (believers) lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.
This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power,
but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog,
to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city.
And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone
where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face
the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened.
And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life.
And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.”

• The U/L verses above plainly state that there are 2 resurrections separated by 1000 years (the millenium).
• The first resurrection is that of believers … 1000 years later, the others are resurrected.


The Last Trumpet • The resurrection of ALL dead believers is at the LAST trumpet.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds”
1 Corinthians 15:51-52We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment,
in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound,
and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

• The verses above describe the resurrection of ALL dead believers! And also, those who are
alive on earth will be changed to the same incorruptible state as the resurrected believers.
• The pre-trib doctrine teaches that believers living in the last generation will be
changed into an eternal state at the beginning of the tribulation period.
If the dead believers are resurrected at the same time as the rapture (before the tribulation),
how can these so-called tribulation saints be resurrected at the end of the tribulation?
Because … there are only 2 resurrections: ONE for the believers and ONE for the lost.
But, pre-trib falsely teaches 2 resurrections for believers.
Also, pre-trib falsely teaches that raptured saints are the “firstfruits”, however Jesus is!

1 Cor 15:23 “But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.”
• Also, “the dead in Christ” refers to the group of ALL the dead in Christ.
How could this main harvest be considered merely the “firstfruits”?
Jesus returns at His second coming at the end of the tribulation period.
There will be Christians alive at that time.
ALL dead believers will be resurrected from the dead, and then …

“we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds”

The Elect • Please refer to Matthew 24 above!
Pre-trib’s excuse for “His elect” is that it is some group of Jewish believers! This is absurd, e.g.
-- Paul refers to the Jews as “Israel” and the believers in Christ as “the elect” (Romans 11:7)
-- Writing mostly to Greek believers, Paul refers to them as “the elect of God” (Colossians 3:12-13)


The Last Day
John 6:39-54 “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing,
but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees
the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
… No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
… Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

• Jesus has clearly stated that the dead believers will be raised up on the last day!
How can the rapture doctrine have “the dead in Christ will rise first” (1 Thes 4:16), followed by a rapture
… if this rapture occurs 7 years before the last day? … How many occurrences of “the last day” are there?
• Pre-trib says they meet the Lord in the air (along with the living believers) before the tribulation.
All 4 gospels have references to a trumpet, and all occur in connection with the end of
the tribulation and the resurrection of believers! This is especially obvious in Matthew 24.
In Revelation, there are 7 consecutive trumpets encompassing the entire tribulation period,
with the last trumpet obviously coming at the very end.
Pre-trib has unsurmountable problems with the last day and the last trumpet.


The Days of Noah
Matthew 24:37-41 “But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage,
until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did NOT KNOW until the flood came and took them all away,
so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken
and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.”
Luke 17:26-37 “And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man
… Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left.
Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?” So He said to them,
“Wherever the body is, there the eagles (or vultures) will be gathered together.”
Matthew 24:28 “For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

• The disciples asked, “Where were they taken, Lord?”
His response was like, “Where the dead bodies are is where the eagles (vultures) gather.”
Those who are taken are taken to destruction, to the place where the eagles circle overhead.
Immediately preceding the flood, no one had any idea that destruction was about to fall.
And “so also will the coming of the Son of Man be”!

Most church people are not expecting danger … they are expecting to be raptured.
They are the ones who “did NOT KNOW until the flood came and took them all away” (Matt 24:39).
As in the days of Noah, the ones who will be taken away are taken away to destruction!
But, some believers today are like Noah and his family who spent 120 years building the Ark.
Some today are getting prepared to “ride it out” during the coming persecution and tribulation.
Another sign this event is one of judgment: both eagle and vulture are abominations (Lev 11:13).
The true believer is among those who will remain, while the others are taken to be destroyed.

“Watch therefore, for you do NOT KNOW what hour your Lord is coming … Therefore you
also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do NOT EXPECT.” (Matt 24:42-44).

• Yes, the believers do NOT KNOW that they will NOT be evacuated before things get really rough.
Noah was involved in heavy-duty preparations for the coming disaster.
True believers (who refuse to take the mark) do NOT KNOW they won’t be able to buy anything!


Coming upon you as a thief • This is a negative event, not a positive one!
Revelation 3:2-3 “Be watchful … for I have not found your works perfect before God.
… hold fast and repent … if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief,
and you will NOT KNOW what hour I will come upon you.”

• Jesus clearly warns that some believers will be IN ERROR about the timing of His return.
This group’s works are lacking … they need to repent and re-evaluate when Jesus will return.

1 Thessalonians 5:
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!”, then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

• However, Paul says true believers WILL KNOW when the thief comes!
This group are
“sons of light … not of the night nor of darkness” (1 Thes 5:5).
As for the other group, Paul says sudden destruction will come upon those
who are of the night and darkness, who are those who say,“Peace and safety!”
All of the 15 NT verses which refer to Christ’s coming as a thief
… refer to His second coming at the end of the tribulation period.

Matthew 24:43But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour
the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.”
John 10:10The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy.”
2 Peter 3:10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens
will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat;
both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.”
1 Thes 5:2-3 “For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord
so comes as a thief in the night … then sudden destruction comes upon them”

• We always see the thief being spoken of in a negative context, not a positive rescuing one!
1 Thes 5:4 “But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.”
• The above clearly says believers will be on the earth when “the Day” arrives!
And some of them will be prepared for that Day because they have been watching and anticipating.

Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches,
and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

• In this verse (and Revelation 3 above), believers are told to watch and Christ is referred to as a thief.
At this point, all 7 seal judgments have occurred, all 7 trumpets have sounded, and at least
6 of the 7 vial judgments have been poured out. Then, immediately preceding the battle
of Armaggedon, Christ says:
“I will come upon you as a thief” (Revelation 3:3)
All of this is irrefutable Scriptural proof that the thief in the night comes AFTER the tribulation!


The Day of the Lord • The wrath of God - at Jesus’ second coming - at the end of the tribulation!
Both Paul and Peter connect the coming of the “thief in the night” with the Day of the Lord:
1 Thessalonians 5:2 “the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night”
2 Peter 3:10 “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night”

• The Day of the Lord ALWAYS speaks of the second coming of Christ at the very end of the tribulation.
All 23 references of the Day of the Lord refer to the destructive post-tribulation return of Jesus Christ.
One example is …
Isaiah 13:6-9 “Wail, for the day of the Lord is at hand! It will come as destruction
from the Almighty. … Behold, the day of the Lord comes, cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger,
to lay the land desolate; and He will destroy its sinners from it.”

• The wrath of God comes on the day of the Lord … at the very end of the tribulation.
Matthew 24:29-31 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the
heavens will be shaken ... and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven
with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

• However, some believe that the Day of the Lord actually begins at the supposed pre-tribulation rapture!

2 Peter 3:10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens
will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat;
both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.”

• There is no way this verse can be turned into a blessed rapture of the saints!

But, Satan’s extremely dangerous pre-tribulation rapture theory remains alive and well on planet earth!
 
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May 15, 2013
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#2
The tribulations are the times of distress, and the great tribulation is when Babylon, Persia and Rome had taken over and put them under great distress, more distressful than the time they were under the control of Egypt, because it lasted longer.
 
P

popeye

Guest
#3

Unfortunately, there is not enough space to fully quote most of the Scripture references!


If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return of Christ …
the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be gathered at His second coming,
and not at some secret return that precedes His BIG coming at the end of the tribulation!


Matthew 24:21-31 • Might as well get the most obvious proof out of the way first!
“For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world
until this time, no, nor ever shall be. … Immediately after the tribulation of those days
the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear
in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man
coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels
with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds,
from one end of heaven to the other.”





But, Satan’s extremely dangerous pre-tribulation rapture theory remains alive and well on planet earth!
Immediately after the tribulation of those days
the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear
in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man
coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels
with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds,
from one end of heaven to the other.”


Thanks for the proof of the pretrib rapture.
Now you were saying this verse is satan's????
You think satan agrees with God????
Hmmmmm
 
P

popeye

Guest
#4
The Day of the Lord ALWAYS speaks of the second coming of Christ at the very end of the tribulation.
No,it does not.
You are leaving out any possibility of "2 comings"
As I have said,leave out the other side and Poof! Postrib is indesputable.
 
A

AtonedFor

Guest
#5
they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
Thanks for informing people that they need to go to heaven BEFORE they are raptured.
T'will be mucho appreciated, I'm sure!
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
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#6
Unfortunately, there is not enough space to fully quote most of the Scripture references!

If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return of Christ …
the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be gathered at His second coming,
and not at some secret return that precedes His BIG coming at the end of the tribulation!

And you can add this to your list.
 
P

popeye

Guest
#7
Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches,
and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

• In this verse (and Revelation 3 above), believers are told to watch and Christ is referred to as a thief.
At this point, all 7 seal judgments have occurred, all 7 trumpets have sounded, and at least
6 of the 7 vial judgments have been poured out. Then, immediately preceding the battle
of Armaggedon, Christ says:
“I will come upon you as a thief” (Revelation 3:3)
All of this is irrefutable Scriptural proof that the thief in the night comes AFTER the tribulation!



15
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Proves absolutely nothing. You are doing with this what postribs do with rev 20 and the resurrection.
In your mish mash you have "islands fleeing away" and "hail of fire" after the supposed "postrib" rapture.

Postribs tend to throw a million cliche's out,misquoted and all,hoping something sticks
 
P

popeye

Guest
#8
Thanks for informing people that they need to go to heaven BEFORE they are raptured.
T'will be mucho appreciated, I'm sure!
IOW,you are in agreement with the fact the elect are in heaven during the GT as Jesus tells us?
 
P

popeye

Guest
#9
Originally Posted by AtonedFor
Unfortunately, there is not enough space to fully quote most of the Scripture references!

If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return of Christ …
the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be gathered at His second coming,
and not at some secret return that precedes His BIG coming at the end of the tribulation!
Yes we agree they are gathered from heaven postrib as Jesus tell us
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
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#10
Yes we agree they are gathered from heaven postrib as Jesus tell us
In Ac 3:21, Peter says that Jesus must "remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything" (Ro 8:19-23), which is the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness he tells us about in 2Pe 3:10-13, at the end of time, for there is no death (Rev 21:1-4).

Since Jesus must remain in heaven, there can be
no appearing prior to his coming to restore all things at
the end of time, which therefore specifically locates the rapture at the end of time.
 
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popeye

Guest
#11
Originally Posted by AtonedFor


......and not at some secret return that precedes His BIG coming at the end of the tribulation!
Only postribs use the "secret rapture" phrase,never heard it anywhere else.
 

Nautilus

Senior Member
Jun 29, 2012
6,488
53
48
#12
pretrib? posttrib? How about Idontcaretrib? When it happens it happens.
 
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popeye

Guest
#13
In Ac 3:21, Peter says that Jesus must "remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything" (Ro 8:19-23), which is the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness he tells us about in 2Pe 3:10-13, at the end of time, for there is no death (Rev 21:1-4).

Since Jesus must remain in heaven, there can be no appearing prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time, which therefore specifically locates the rapture at the end of time.
unscrriptural;
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Jesus can leave heaven anytime.Kinda like he did when Paul was on the Damascas rd
 
P

popeye

Guest
#14
pretrib? posttrib? How about Idontcaretrib? When it happens it happens.
Jesus spoke extensively of it as did paul and daniel.
Would be silly to ignore it.
 
A

AtonedFor

Guest
#15
How about Idontcaretrib? When it happens it happens.
Okay, but do you have what is required to get through the great tribulation?
Because if you don't, you won't make it through.
 
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#16
Elin said:
In Ac 3:21, Peter says that Jesus must "remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything" (Ro 8:19-23), which is the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness he tells us about in 2Pe 3:10-13, at the end of time, for there is no death (Rev 21:1-4).

Since Jesus must remain in heaven, there can be no appearing prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time, which therefore specifically locates the rapture at the end of time.
unscrriptural;
Ac 3:21 is Scripture.

In Heb 9:27-28 the author states that
there will be no appearing prior to his coming to judge the world, because Christ appears but twice, once to atone and once to judge.
Heb states that just as men die once and then face judgment, so Christ appears once to die and once to judge, and not in between.

Since Jesus appears only twice, there can be
only one more appearing to come, the only one
in which the rapture can occur, and therefore specifically locating the rapture at the end of time.
 
P

popeye

Guest
#17
Matthew 24:28 “For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”
• The disciples asked, “Where were they taken, Lord?”
His response was like, “Where the dead bodies are is where the eagles (vultures) gather.”
Those who are taken are taken to destruction, to the place where the eagles circle overhead.
Immediately preceding the flood, no one had any idea that destruction was about to fall.
And “so also will the coming of the Son of Man be”!

Most church people are not expecting danger … they are expecting to be raptured.
They are the ones who “did NOT KNOW until the flood came and took them all away” (Matt 24:39).
As in the days of Noah, the ones who will be taken away are taken away to destruction!
But, some believers today are like Noah and his family who spent 120 years building the Ark.
Some today are getting prepared to “ride it out” during the coming persecution and tribulation.
Another sign this event is one of judgment: both eagle and vulture are abominations (Lev 11:13).
The true believer is among those who will remain, while the others are taken to be destroyed.
They are the ones who “did NOT KNOW until the flood came and took them all away” (Matt 24:39).
As in the days of Noah, the ones who will be taken away are taken away to destruction!
But, some believers today are like Noah and his family who spent 120 years building the Ark.
Amazimg where your doctrine leads. Do you realize you are now saying thousands of people survived the flood?
"One taken,one left." Wreckless interpretations lead to bizarre statements.
Let me help you. You need a postrib rapture right? You therefore need some example of a postrib deliverance where those delivered immediately return to the spot of the judgement.
You have no such thing. That is why you do that to the noah story where 8 pple were DELIVERED (the righteous) PRETRIB/flood and you can not even see it.
Under your theory you need noah delivered post flood.
 

Agricola

Senior Member
Dec 10, 2012
2,638
88
48
#18
Pre trib, mid trib, post trib, WHO CARES? Why is this such an issue, truth is we will only know when it happens, arguing over timing of rapture or if it will happen at all is a good waste of time and a ridiculous argument to try and win.
 

Yet

Banned
Jan 4, 2014
3,756
69
0
#19
Matt. 24 is speaking to the the Jewish Christians and the coming forces of Titus to destroy the temple and lay waste Jerusalem, taking the contents of the temple and many captives as slaves back to Rome. Not one stone left on another. That generation did not pass till it all came to pass. Are their double prophetic fulfillments in place? I'm sure.
 
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
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#20
Pre trib, mid trib, post trib, WHO CARES? Why is this such an issue, truth is we will only know when it happens, arguing over timing of rapture or if it will happen at all is a good waste of time and a ridiculous argument to try and win.
Truth is important, particularly about the hope of all believers, the second coming of Christ,
and what the NT teaches regarding it.