All the evidence you will ever need to trash the false pre-trib rapture

[Markum1972]

The false prophets of old were those that said that the famine and sword would not come upon them. Yet it did. There is nothing new under the sun. Inasmuch as those that have spoken against God in this matter, so shall the famine and sword come upon them like a thief in the night, unaware, and unprepared. But not so for the wise virgins of the Lord, for they will hear the voice of the Lord or his watchmen and take preparation.


Ezekiel
33 And the word of Jehovah came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, and the people of the land take a man from among them, and set him for their watchman;
3 if, when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;
4 then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning, if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.
5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him; whereas if he had taken warning, he would have delivered his soul.

 

[popeye]

Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 all teach that AFTER the GREAT TRIBULATION of those days.....

the bible teaches post tribulation/pre-wrath ingathering.......

Tribulation-->thilipsis
Wrath-->orge

Two different words with two different applications.....

No,they overlap.
The third facet would be "judgement",which is what it is when God sends drought/holdds back moisture.
God holds AC back,then releases AC,so you have no case for the wrath/trib thinggy.
If wrath is God's anger ,which it is,do you think God is happy when he releases judgement/AC ?
BTW,"tribulation " is translated from the greek "constriction" or "affliction" and we see this in the wrath of God,so it is not a "either or" win for post or pre trib adherants.......It is a non issue.

 

[AtonedFor]

The false prophets of old were those that said that the famine and sword would not come upon them. Yet it did. There is nothing new under the sun. Inasmuch as those that have spoken against God in this matter, so shall the famine and sword come upon them like
a thief in the night, unaware, and unprepared. But not so for the wise virgins of the Lord,
for they will hear the voice of the Lord or his watchmen and take preparation.

Yes indeed ... seems 1972 was a very good year indeed ...

PREPARE by getting as close to the Lord as you possibly can,
and He will lead you and guide you into what you should do,
which way you should go, and many etcs.

 

[popeye]

Two comings? Two days of the Lord? What you speak of is part of the great falling away; departure from the faith. Study to show yourself approved that the promise of God not be a mystery to you.

Awake!

2 Thessalonians 2
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, touching the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him;
2 to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord is just at hand;
3 let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
4 he that opposeth and exalteth himself against all that is called God or that is worshipped; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, setting himself forth as God.

Two comings? Two days of the Lord? What you speak of is part of the great falling away; departure from the faith. Study to show yourself approved that the promise of God not be a mystery to you.

Obviously you have ,in your own mind,some idea you are right.

Before you go all condescing and haughty on us you may want to take a second look at your "falling away" thinggy.

The "from the faith" is infeered (supposedly) and the translators went with the flow.
It ONLY says departure,which works for me but not you. HMMMMMMM
But you are 'right" in your mind,which is ok by me.

BTW, Jesus already came back at least 2 times and the word of God testifies of it.

 

[popeye]

Originally Posted by Markum1972

The false prophets of old were those that said that the famine and sword would not come upon them. Yet it did. There is nothing new under the sun. Inasmuch as those that have spoken against God in this matter, so shall the famine and sword come upon them like
a thief in the night, unaware, and unprepared. But not so for the wise virgins of the Lord,
for they will hear the voice of the Lord or his watchmen and take preparation.

Yes indeed ... seems 1972 was a very good year indeed ...

PREPARE by getting as close to the Lord as you possibly can,
and He will lead you and guide you into what you should do,
which way you should go, and many etcs.

Yes good to see rapture ready folks embracing the soon gathering by the groom

 

[popeye]

You do understand tenses right...

was<--past tense
is<--present tense
is to come<---FUTURE TENSE

There is but ONE (1) PAROUSIA of Jesus and ALL things must jive with one coming.....!

He already parousia-ed in acts and revelation on patmos.
He is not confined to heaven.
You have a major problem try ing to make rev 19 the rapture,and mat 24;31 blows away a postrib rapture.
But yes he certainly does parousia after the GT. It will just have to remain a mytery to some how the saints got to heaven pretrib.
"parousia","trumps", "trumpets" ,"1st resurrection" etc will not get you there. There are major segments and dimensions that must be ignored to make postrib work.

 

[Markum1972]

Obviously you have ,in your own mind,some idea you are right.

Before you go all condescing and haughty on us you may want to take a second look at your "falling away" thinggy.

The "from the faith" is infeered (supposedly) and the translators went with the flow.
It ONLY says departure,which works for me but not you. HMMMMMMM
But you are 'right" in your mind,which is ok by me.

BTW, Jesus already came back at least 2 times and the word of God testifies of it.

It should not be OK for any to be right in their own mind or seeing that which is right in their own eyes.

Only by hearing from the Lord are these mysteries made known. Many shall say that one is not able to hear the voice of the Lord, yet it is written "My sheep know my voice." These are hypocrites that claim to believe what the scriptures say yet try to understand the mysteries of God through their own might and power; they call the scripture holy but then say that God was not able to keep it. God forbid. God will not be mocked in this way.

Please do not bear false witness against me. I do not condescend to anyone as I consider myself less than others. Speaking the truth boldly while boasting to know God does not make one haughty.

 

[Elin]

The rapture is when we meet Him in the air, His second return is when He will set foot on the earth.

They are the same event.

The saints, both those living and those resurrected, rise to meet the Lord in the air, and then descend with him to earth.

It's called "parousia," where the people go out to meet the dignitary and accompany him back into their city, as we see in Jesus' entry into Jerusalem before he died.

 

[Elin]

That is not Heb 9:27-28.

In 2Th 1:6-10, Paul locates Jesus' coming to relieve the saints (rapture) from persecution (v.7)
with Jesus' coming to judge the world (vv. 8-10).

There Paul is comforting the Thessalonians in their suffering (v.4)
with the fact that God will punish those who persecute them (vv. 5-6),
and that God will punish the persecutors when Jesus comes to relieve the saints (rapture) from that persecution (v.7),
which is his coming in judgment (v.8).

Again, the rapture is specifically located with Jesus coming to judge the world
at the end of time.

Mat 256 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

No,you are way,way off. Not even a hint of judgement.
You have failed to factor in the bride/groom dimension

Thanks, Popeye, but the ten virgins of Mt 25:6-10 is a parable about the kingdom, not a prophecy,
just as the talents of Mt 25:14-30 is a parable about the kingdom, and not a prophecy,
and as all the many parables about the kingdom are not prophecies.

so you're oblivious to the purose of the rapture and miss the dispensation of the gentiles ENDING.(which is why AC is EMPOWERED to kill all saints on the planet) DURING THE GT
This is why the GT is referred to as Jacob's trouble=ISRAELS TROUBLE.
I know of no other study,besides postrib rapture, (except debating the orthodox Jews) where
a huge segment of the word is edited out for a doctrine's sake.
Why?

The "huge segment of the word edited out" are prophetic riddles whose meanings are subject to varying personal interpretations which greatly differ from one another.
The personal interpretation you propose of some of these prophetic riddles contradicts clear NT teaching,
which is certain, authoritative and not a riddle.

Ac 3:21; Heb 9:27-28, 2Th 1:6-10 are examples of clear, certain and authoritative NT teaching which contradict your personal non-authoritative interpretation of some of these prophetic riddles.

My point is the self-evident principle:
all non-authoritative interpretation of prophecy which contradicts authoritative NT teaching
is in error.

The word clearly,clearly shows all saints killed by AC DURING THE GT.
.....Making your theory IMPOSSIBLE

Where is that found in clear, certain and authoritative NT teaching, as distinct from
personal non-authoritative interpretation of prophetic riddles which are subject to greatly differing interpretations, none of them authoritative?

 

[dcontroversal]

He already parousia-ed in acts and revelation on patmos.
He is not confined to heaven.
You have a major problem try ing to make rev 19 the rapture,and mat 24;31 blows away a postrib rapture.
But yes he certainly does parousia after the GT. It will just have to remain a mytery to some how the saints got to heaven pretrib.
"parousia","trumps", "trumpets" ,"1st resurrection" etc will not get you there. There are major segments and dimensions that must be ignored to make postrib work.

1st of all go eat some spinach
2nd NO where did I equate Revelation 19 to the (rapture)
3rd You have to reject hundreds of scripture in context to teach believe pre-trib
4th I used to believe that (pre-trib) until I actually started studying the bible in context

There are too many scriptures that contradicts it....so...believe what you will Bluto HAHAHA, oh I men POPEYE!

 

[Jason0047]

Yes indeed ... seems 1972 was a very good year indeed ...

PREPARE by getting as close to the Lord as you possibly can,
and He will lead you and guide you into what you should do,
which way you should go, and many etcs.

Here is the thing. If no Pre-Trib Rapture does not take place and the Antichrist appears on the scene in the Jewish temple showing himself that he is God, then I will be like... Okay.... I suppose I need to go back to the drawing board on my understanding on those verses in Scripture. No real loss.

Oh, and if you believe some Christians will fall away because they had their hope in the Pre-Trib, well... they never were God's Elect to begin with. For anyone who has a real deep connection with Jesus is not going to give up on Him so easily if they have misunderstood Scripture.

However, if you are wrong, you will be ashamed before God for not believing Scripture and you will have missed out on the opportunity of the Pre-Trib Rapture. For if there is one thing that is stressed in the Rapture is that you will not know the day or hour of his return. For Scripture says that the person who thinks the Lord is delaying His coming is compared to that of an evil and wicked servant. Also, you have to understand that just because a Christian believes in the Pre-Trib Rapture does not also guarantee that they will be taken up in it, either. Believers have to be fruitful for God on some level and also live righteously (i.e. not abide in unrepentant sin). For Jesus has to be their Master and Lord.

 

[AtonedFor]

... if you believe some Christians will fall away because they had their hope in the Pre-Trib,
well... they never were God's Elect to begin with.
For anyone who has a real deep connection with Jesus is not going to give up on Him so easily
if they have misunderstood Scripture.

Multitudes in the churches will be so devastated when they realize
they are NOT going to be raptured out of the antichrist's tribulation
... that they will lose faith in the church, period.

Perhaps, this is the great apostacy (falling away).

But yes, I agree, MOST of these will have never been truly born-again!
SOME may have born-again, but were living a very shallow existence
(even in loads of habitual sin).

 

[Jason0047]

Multitudes in the churches will be so devastated when they realize
they are NOT going to be raptured out of the antichrist's tribulation
... that they will lose faith in the church, period.

Perhaps, this is the great apostacy (falling away).

But yes, I agree, MOST of these will have never been truly born-again!
SOME may have born-again, but were living a very shallow existence
(even in loads of habitual sin).

If they were living in habititual sin, then they were:

(a) Never a true believer to begin with.
(b) Backslidden in a life of sin (like the prodigal) and they are in need of repentance.

Also, you can't assume everyone who believes in the Rapture is living in habitual sin. That is just wrong to even say that. We are talking Eschatology and not Soteriology. As I said before, those who are living righteously and or have a deep connection with Jesus are not going to fall away. That is a true believer. That is the Elect. So no. Nobody who is a TRUE believer is really going to fall away. Only those who have spurious or weak faith will fall away. But that is not a true believer who has root in God's Word.

Do all believers who hold to a false "Works Salvation" program saved and doing everything perfectly?

 

[Kerry]

It's funny how we become judge and jury. I'm so glad that Jesus is my lawyer and my judge. Because if were men I would be doomed.

 

[john832]

They are the same event.

The saints, both those living and those resurrected, rise to meet the Lord in the air, and then descend with him to earth.

It's called "parousia," where the people go out to meet the dignitary and accompany him back into their city, as we see in Jesus' entry into Jerusalem before he died.

Exactty correct here.

 

[CRC]

The research is appreciated!! However Christian soldiers have no furlough!! Whenever or Whatever! True soldiers have been admonished!! Be ye ever ready!!!

 

[Brighthouse]

I myself have never cared to speak much on the rapture of the saints,because any of you could be correct in when,however i would like to point your attention to one area Rev 13:8! From this point on,any rapture one believes in has taken place,there are NO believers on the earth from this moment on!!NONE! in chapter 18 from heaven an appeal is made starting at verse 4-8 of course no one follows.

Jesus returns in chapter 19 and announcements are rendered! Armageddon follows verse 17.The point to this, there is a point upon the earth where there are NO believers on the earth! NONE!! After rev 13:8 all take the mark,ALL! There are no believers to worry about having to take the mark or not,as many claim.( rev 13:14-17!!) ALL take the mark! Just thought i would point this out to you,and see if any disagree?And if you do, please show me scripture as to believers being on the earth after rev 13:8. thanks

 

[john832]

I myself have never cared to speak much on the rapture of the saints,because any of you could be correct in when,however i would like to point your attention to one area Rev 13:8! From this point on,any rapture one believes in has taken place,there are NO believers on the earth from this moment on!!NONE! in chapter 18 from heaven an appeal is made starting at verse 4-8 of course no one follows.

Jesus returns in chapter 19 and announcements are rendered! Armageddon follows verse 17.The point to this, there is a point upon the earth where there are NO believers on the earth! NONE!! After rev 13:8 all take the mark,ALL! There are no believers to worry about having to take the mark or not,as many claim.( rev 13:14-17!!) ALL take the mark! Just thought i would point this out to you,and see if any disagree?And if you do, please show me scripture as to believers being on the earth after rev 13:8. thanks

What saints is he making war with here?

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

And here are some who are blessed to die in the Lord from now on...

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.


Uh, who is He talking to here?

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Actually, the saints are protected on earth in a Place of Safety for the 3-1/2 years...

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

So, yes the believers are on the earth for the entire 3-1/2 years.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I myself have never cared to speak much on the rapture of the saints,because any of you could be correct in when,however i would like to point your attention to one area Rev 13:8! From this point on,any rapture one believes in has taken place,there are NO believers on the earth from this moment on!!NONE! in chapter 18 from heaven an appeal is made starting at verse 4-8 of course no one follows.

Jesus returns in chapter 19 and announcements are rendered! Armageddon follows verse 17.The point to this, there is a point upon the earth where there are NO believers on the earth! NONE!! After rev 13:8 all take the mark,ALL! There are no believers to worry about having to take the mark or not,as many claim.( rev 13:14-17!!) ALL take the mark! Just thought i would point this out to you,and see if any disagree?And if you do, please show me scripture as to believers being on the earth after rev 13:8. thanks

That verse in Revelation 13:8 says all the inhabitant whose name is not written in the Book of life ( believers ) will worship the antichrist. There has to be believers in our Lord in order for there to be a group to come against him at Armageddon. Then on top of that when the Lord comes back standing on Mount Zion, it shows He comes back to protect His people from being persecuted in this war. Chapter 14 verse 13 says blessed are those who die in the name of the Lord from here on...
Then to also to show believers still here, Jesus 1,000 millennial reign has people that follow Him, and when He releases satan after the 1,000 years it says he tries again to deceive those on the earth.
I believe those who are faithful to Chris will be raptured after the Great Tribulation period, right before the bowl judgments of God's wrath are poured out. But then there will be some that come to believe in Him after these two events, the rapture and God's wrath judgments.

 

[AtonedFor]

Originally Posted by AtonedFor

SOME may have born-again, but were living a very shallow existence (even in loads of habitual sin).

If they were living in habititual sin, then they were:

(a) Never a true believer to begin with.
(b) Backslidden in a life of sin (like the prodigal) and they are in need of repentance.

Also, you can't assume everyone who believes in the Rapture is living in habitual sin.
That is just wrong to even say that.

WOW ... another one who can't seem to understand simple English!
Just how does SOME get understood to mean EVERYONE?