A Generalized Question
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DiscipleDave - You are nuts. All you need is Jesus and the Word of God. Firstly you need to know a language. A language is made up of cultural summaries of objects, ideas, relationships etc. Each culture uses different symbols and pictures to mean similar and slightly different things. By looking into what the writer meant and the symbols they were using can help bring to light the intention and nuance intended. This is a good thing, to look at things from different angles, and to see possible meaning that we no longer have because our culture is so different.
On top of this the reader and listener are biased by their own experiences and biases so meanings and implications can be lost. The funny thing that makes me laugh, is Jesus put such simple and yet complex concepts in parables which transcend language and are often easy to translate. But to get "new" meaning people love to delve too deeply when the obvious is hitting them in the face. Take a simple phrase, women should not have authority over men.
Now the context is women of Pauls time had no education, had very limited experience and interaction. Much of their questions and issues were from the lack of information, not because women are inferior to men. You could validly argue that most of the conflict in the world and problems are caused be men. Our agressive attitudes lead to conflicts where there could more easily be compromise. The church has often grown where women have been given caring, pastoral roles, because us men are often not sensitive or observant enough to see struggles or issues going on but are hidden.
Now where is the truth. Is it in the plain words or also in the context? Where is the love, is it in seeking the best for all people or in disagreement about what a writer might or might not have meant?
On top of this the reader and listener are biased by their own experiences and biases so meanings and implications can be lost. The funny thing that makes me laugh, is Jesus put such simple and yet complex concepts in parables which transcend language and are often easy to translate. But to get "new" meaning people love to delve too deeply when the obvious is hitting them in the face. Take a simple phrase, women should not have authority over men.
Now the context is women of Pauls time had no education, had very limited experience and interaction. Much of their questions and issues were from the lack of information, not because women are inferior to men. You could validly argue that most of the conflict in the world and problems are caused be men. Our agressive attitudes lead to conflicts where there could more easily be compromise. The church has often grown where women have been given caring, pastoral roles, because us men are often not sensitive or observant enough to see struggles or issues going on but are hidden.
Now where is the truth. Is it in the plain words or also in the context? Where is the love, is it in seeking the best for all people or in disagreement about what a writer might or might not have meant?
Read any and all versions you care to, but it is advisable to pray first each time you open the Word.
I like languages, so I read in a few, or have read in a few. All are inspired by our Father, however it is nice, when reading Hebrew, to see first hand what each name will translate to in English. One of my favorite full translations is the name of the town of Bethleham. Our Lord, Who is the Bread from Heaven, was born there, and Bethlehem translates to "House of Bread." Now is this not an underscoring of our faith, and a blessing?
I like languages, so I read in a few, or have read in a few. All are inspired by our Father, however it is nice, when reading Hebrew, to see first hand what each name will translate to in English. One of my favorite full translations is the name of the town of Bethleham. Our Lord, Who is the Bread from Heaven, was born there, and Bethlehem translates to "House of Bread." Now is this not an underscoring of our faith, and a blessing?
So many people I have known, myself included, have studied Hebrw for this very reason, having learned what some names translate as. They ratify what we have already learned of the Holy Spirit. It is not necessary read in any language if the Holy Spirit is indeed leading an individual, but it is so gratifying, learning some of the translations ince they are mostly regarded as simply names in languages to which they have been translated. God bless you.
Well, since much doctrine has been built on specific and esoteric wording as it is found in particular versions, mainly, the KJV, I can well understand the aversion to possibly finding out the translators might have blown it in certain areas.
It's the old story of, "Hey, I know what I believe... don't confuse me with the facts."
It's the old story of, "Hey, I know what I believe... don't confuse me with the facts."
Gotta drink the milk before you can eat the meat. That's to say it's all good. My old pastor said just the other night that he has been studying the bible for over sixty years and he still studies it today. He still does not know it all. He did not know any Greek of Hebrew when he was twelve but as he grew he learned the Greek and the Hebrew.
The problem has never been too much study.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The problem has never been too much study.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
D
1 Cr 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
1 Cr 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Timing on this always reminded of this, because it says,
Mat 25:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
And we see Paul discerning their state
1 Cr 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
1 Cr 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Timing on this always reminded of this, because it says,
Mat 25:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
And we see Paul discerning their state
1 Cr 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
Back about 15 years ago, I was studying advanced French, and I decided to read my Bible in French. It was partly to see how God's Word looked in French, and partly to learn the words for witnessing, which I did not learn in my French courses, like sin, justification, righteousness, etc!
One thing that delighted me was how easy it was to read the Bible in French. Another thing was that French has both the singular and plural second person, so for the first time, (except for the KJV which I still do not understand to this day) I could clearly see where an individual versus a group was being addressed, or commanded!
So I picked up Spanish and started reading the Bible in Spanish. It was a bit more difficult, but it expanded my vocabularly, and certain things came to light that I had not seen in English or French. (They were there in the other languages, I just had not noticed them)
Along comes Seminary, and the original languages requirement to get my MDiv. The first 4 years I was safe. Then, came Greek! Well, turns out, Greek was amazing! It just opened up the Bible in so many ways, clarified theology and identified false doctrine, and I had a real knack for it. My high school German, (noun cases) and the French and Spanish also helped. I got 100% for the course, and the Greek award, beating out the men in the class! (For those who think a woman can't teach! Or is that not learn from anyone but their husband!? LOL)
So my last year, came the dreaded Hebrew! After getting over the initial block, turns out I loved Hebrew too! And did I ever learn a lot about the Hebrew culture and life! I've spent time translating my favourite Old Testament passages and finding shades of variation and textual things that are very interesting.
So, no, I don't believe you have to know the Greek and the Hebrew to get saved and follow Christ. I do think that a good translation should have all the essentials covered in it.
But yes, studying the original languages greatly enriched my study and understanding of God, his will for my life, and opened up whole new areas of discovery and maybe even helped me become a more mature Christian.
One thing that delighted me was how easy it was to read the Bible in French. Another thing was that French has both the singular and plural second person, so for the first time, (except for the KJV which I still do not understand to this day) I could clearly see where an individual versus a group was being addressed, or commanded!
So I picked up Spanish and started reading the Bible in Spanish. It was a bit more difficult, but it expanded my vocabularly, and certain things came to light that I had not seen in English or French. (They were there in the other languages, I just had not noticed them)
Along comes Seminary, and the original languages requirement to get my MDiv. The first 4 years I was safe. Then, came Greek! Well, turns out, Greek was amazing! It just opened up the Bible in so many ways, clarified theology and identified false doctrine, and I had a real knack for it. My high school German, (noun cases) and the French and Spanish also helped. I got 100% for the course, and the Greek award, beating out the men in the class! (For those who think a woman can't teach! Or is that not learn from anyone but their husband!? LOL)
So my last year, came the dreaded Hebrew! After getting over the initial block, turns out I loved Hebrew too! And did I ever learn a lot about the Hebrew culture and life! I've spent time translating my favourite Old Testament passages and finding shades of variation and textual things that are very interesting.
So, no, I don't believe you have to know the Greek and the Hebrew to get saved and follow Christ. I do think that a good translation should have all the essentials covered in it.
But yes, studying the original languages greatly enriched my study and understanding of God, his will for my life, and opened up whole new areas of discovery and maybe even helped me become a more mature Christian.
people everywhere are foolish , "at best" --- and few ever turn to the creator to live his way.
the born again, spiritual man appraises all things - and is appraised by no one.
the carnal man knows nothing, or even less than nothing(as if possible) - he is opposed to Yahweh.
from all creation, a little child trusting and relying on the creator sees all the evidence of
the creator's existence and power and glory and love and more - hope upon hope in HIM the CREATOR.
when a spiritual man reads the catechism of any group, yahweh teaches him the truth about it - red flags and all, as well as what part is true and what is not.
same with any translation of scripture, original or copied a thousand times - yahweh reveals, not man nor study.
yahshua told this and showed this plain and simple with his disciples and the little children of his life time on earth, and the opposition of the educated ones, the legal authorities and teachers, and so on.
yahweh knows best. yahweh knows everything. yahweh either teaches or he doesn't, as he said and says and as it is written.
listen to him little children, as he delights to make known himself to the humble, and opposes the proud.
the born again, spiritual man appraises all things - and is appraised by no one.
the carnal man knows nothing, or even less than nothing(as if possible) - he is opposed to Yahweh.
from all creation, a little child trusting and relying on the creator sees all the evidence of
the creator's existence and power and glory and love and more - hope upon hope in HIM the CREATOR.
when a spiritual man reads the catechism of any group, yahweh teaches him the truth about it - red flags and all, as well as what part is true and what is not.
same with any translation of scripture, original or copied a thousand times - yahweh reveals, not man nor study.
yahshua told this and showed this plain and simple with his disciples and the little children of his life time on earth, and the opposition of the educated ones, the legal authorities and teachers, and so on.
yahweh knows best. yahweh knows everything. yahweh either teaches or he doesn't, as he said and says and as it is written.
listen to him little children, as he delights to make known himself to the humble, and opposes the proud.
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Abba is an Aramaic word for father; but not as a name. It's a grammatical
vocative. For example: when my wife and my son are in the kitchen talking
about me; "dad" is who I am to my son. But when he calls out to me to get
my attention-- Dad! Where are you? --then "dad" becomes a vocative. In
other words; vocatives are used to address somebody not to identify
somebody.
==========================================
Abba is an Aramaic word for father; but not as a name. It's a grammatical
vocative. For example: when my wife and my son are in the kitchen talking
about me; "dad" is who I am to my son. But when he calls out to me to get
my attention-- Dad! Where are you? --then "dad" becomes a vocative. In
other words; vocatives are used to address somebody not to identify
somebody.
==========================================
The problem with this is that manuscripts which were historically rejected by church leaders are now looked at as reliable for gaining understanding, and the implication being that ALL copies have mistakes and we really don't know what the Word of God says but we can do our best to get as close to it as possible. This is an error. God promised to preserve His Word without error and He has.
Copies handed down from the men God first gave His Word to are either reliable or they are not.
If we don't believe that God preserved a line of His Word handed down from the men He inspired and directed to put it in writing, then we do NOT have God's Word and no amout of research can bring it to us. It is important to believe God preserved His Word and there was a set of manuscripts proteted from corruptions which change or deny God's Word. The two lines of manuscipts handed down from the original authors are:
True Path – Believers in Antioc, Syria collected the Holy Scriptures, which formed the New Testament. Antioc is where followers of Christ were first called Christians. They made many copies of the scriptures and shared them with other churches, and many believed in Jesus through their witness.
Corrupt Path –Satan countered by having philosophers in Alexandria, Egypt change the Syrian texts to fit their beliefs. Unbelieving philosophers in Alexandria Egypt, such as a man named Origen, who did not accept the Bible as the Word of God or Jesus as the Son of God; amended, added to and deleted many portions of the true text and then palmed off their work as the Word of God.
As a result, their Greek manuscripts either changed words, deleted words, or deleted entire verses, where a text validated the deity of Jesus.
The two most prominent of the corrupt Alexandrian codices are called the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus:
Codex Siniaticus (Aleph or a) was put in the trash heap by the monks of St Catherine’s Monastery. On nearly every page of the manuscript there are corrections and revisions, done by 10 different people. It is indeed worthless trash.
Codex Vaticanus (B) is kept by the Roman Catholic Church, which the Reformers properly identified as Antichrist.
In the gospels alone it leaves out 237 words, 452 clauses and 748 whole sentences.
The early Christians REJECTED these manuscripts, so they were cast aside for a thousand years, until they were later dug up and called “ancient manuscripts.”
As long as you reject anything that differs from the line God preserved through the ages, enjoy reading the Word of God in Hebrew and Greek. The problem is that people claim to have special understanding of the Word based on their studies of the Hebrew and Greek. Any such studies which discredit the King James Bible should be rejected. Beware of corrupt manuscripts which are the basis for all modern versions. Those manuscripts were rejected as corrupt for over a thousand years, and now they are held up for comparison and criticism of the King James Bible. It's a mistake.
Copies handed down from the men God first gave His Word to are either reliable or they are not.
If we don't believe that God preserved a line of His Word handed down from the men He inspired and directed to put it in writing, then we do NOT have God's Word and no amout of research can bring it to us. It is important to believe God preserved His Word and there was a set of manuscripts proteted from corruptions which change or deny God's Word. The two lines of manuscipts handed down from the original authors are:
True Path – Believers in Antioc, Syria collected the Holy Scriptures, which formed the New Testament. Antioc is where followers of Christ were first called Christians. They made many copies of the scriptures and shared them with other churches, and many believed in Jesus through their witness.
Corrupt Path –Satan countered by having philosophers in Alexandria, Egypt change the Syrian texts to fit their beliefs. Unbelieving philosophers in Alexandria Egypt, such as a man named Origen, who did not accept the Bible as the Word of God or Jesus as the Son of God; amended, added to and deleted many portions of the true text and then palmed off their work as the Word of God.
As a result, their Greek manuscripts either changed words, deleted words, or deleted entire verses, where a text validated the deity of Jesus.
The two most prominent of the corrupt Alexandrian codices are called the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus:
Codex Siniaticus (Aleph or a) was put in the trash heap by the monks of St Catherine’s Monastery. On nearly every page of the manuscript there are corrections and revisions, done by 10 different people. It is indeed worthless trash.
Codex Vaticanus (B) is kept by the Roman Catholic Church, which the Reformers properly identified as Antichrist.
In the gospels alone it leaves out 237 words, 452 clauses and 748 whole sentences.
The early Christians REJECTED these manuscripts, so they were cast aside for a thousand years, until they were later dug up and called “ancient manuscripts.”
As long as you reject anything that differs from the line God preserved through the ages, enjoy reading the Word of God in Hebrew and Greek. The problem is that people claim to have special understanding of the Word based on their studies of the Hebrew and Greek. Any such studies which discredit the King James Bible should be rejected. Beware of corrupt manuscripts which are the basis for all modern versions. Those manuscripts were rejected as corrupt for over a thousand years, and now they are held up for comparison and criticism of the King James Bible. It's a mistake.
Maybe tell that person that to study the bible in English, German etc. is also carnal. Hey, just soar over words on a page with your co-pilot the Holy Spirit. Who needs all those words on a page anyways? (hehe)
So with the Holy Spirit as your co-pilot, you are the pilot, right? And you can fly around and throwo your Bible out the window while the Holy Spirit whispers in your ear on which way to go?
The Bible is only accurate and reliable in the originals, so who needs the modern erroneous versions when we can never really know what God said, we can only get close to it because we don't have it in writing any more sinse the originals are lost and all the copies have errors.....
this is the argument atheists and agnostics use agasint the Bible, wilth modern leaders like Richard Dawkins and Price taking it further to say Jesus never even existed and the who Bible is nothing but Pagan myths twisted into wild tales.
If you say God has not preserved His Word in a set of copies that contains no error or variance from the originals, then you have no solid basis for believing the Bible is the Word of God and you might as well quit calling it the Bible, which means "The Book", and you might as well call it a guess at what God wants to say to us today.
this is the argument atheists and agnostics use agasint the Bible, wilth modern leaders like Richard Dawkins and Price taking it further to say Jesus never even existed and the who Bible is nothing but Pagan myths twisted into wild tales.
If you say God has not preserved His Word in a set of copies that contains no error or variance from the originals, then you have no solid basis for believing the Bible is the Word of God and you might as well quit calling it the Bible, which means "The Book", and you might as well call it a guess at what God wants to say to us today.
