A Generalized Question

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DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
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#61
So many people I have known, myself included, have studied Hebrw for this very reason, having learned what some names translate as. They ratify what we have already learned of the Holy Spirit. It is not necessary read in any language if the Holy Spirit is indeed leading an individual, but it is so gratifying, learning some of the translations ince they are mostly regarded as simply names in languages to which they have been translated. God bless you.
100% agree.

i hope nobody is thinking that i am condemning the study of Hebrew and Greek, i am not, i know first hand experience that when i was on milk, the study of Hebrew and Greek was good. But now that i am on meat, i realize that seeking the Truth via the study of Hebrew and Greek was actually hindering me. Because i was seeking the Truth on my own merit, through my own studies, through my own intelligence . i KNOW now there is a better way, and that is through the Holy Spirit of Truth. Hebrew and Greek and even the Bible itself, is but a middle man. Hebrew does not teach you Truth, Greek does not teach you Truth, and even the Bible does not teach you Truth, it is the HOLY SPIRIT that teaches you Truth, The Word of God is a means in which the Holy Spirit can teach you those Truths. And even though you can glean some Truths from the Hebrew and Greek, it is NOT a place to go to, to seek the Truth, in which the Holy Spirit of Truth can reveal to you through the Word of God.

^i^ Responding to Post #26
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
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#63
Gotta drink the milk before you can eat the meat. That's to say it's all good. My old pastor said just the other night that he has been studying the bible for over sixty years and he still studies it today. He still does not know it all. He did not know any Greek of Hebrew when he was twelve but as he grew he learned the Greek and the Hebrew.

The problem has never been too much study.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
True, unless you teach people they MUST study Hebrew and Greek in order to come to the Truth. That is the problem that is see today. People who do study the Hebrew and Greek telling people, that they need to also study the Hebrew and Greek so that they can understand the Truth as THEY see it. That is the problem.
For example, there are many versus that says to "Fear the Lord" and "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge" Those who do NOT believe you should FEAR (scared of) God, that God is nobody to fear, they will inevitably go to the Hebrew and Greek to see if fear can mean something other than (scared of) as the word has always meant, of old, and today as well. But because they do not agree with it, MUST take it to the Hebrew and Greek. Now it is widely taught that fear means reverence or respect. Altogether changing the word fear (scared of) to mean something that they will agree with, such as saying fear means reverence or respect, and then teach people that IS what it means. There are many people who will use the Hebrew and Greek to back up their own personal beliefs, and NOT believe what the Word of God plainly says and teaches.
We as True Christians are to believe the Word of God, NOT DOUBT it, NOT question it, NOT change it via any methods.

^i^ Responding to Post #28
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#64
Agreed. . .we are saved through faith by^^^^^^^^^^^^grace (Eph 2:8-9).


So the faith God gives us is not our faith, but God's faith?

The words "the" and "of" are not in the Greek, and result in

the manifestly absurd notion that God has faith and trust in himself.

What is it that God cannot do that he must rely on faith to accomplish?
Yes according to Ephesians, our faith is given to us by God.
Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

I really can't comment much on the Greek because I don't know Greek. But this makes no sense in English: "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, by faith Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by faith Christ". I trust God preserved his word (like he said he would do) and translated it right.


There was nothing that Jesus could not do because he had perfect faith in the Fathers word.
 
D

DesiredHaven

Guest
#65
Groovy: A term coined by the 'beatnicks' of the 1950's and 1960's in New York City especially Greenwich Village meaning very pleasant. If people realized which groove was referred to, the word would see a lot less use.
I was laughing because it sounded like something Marsha Brady would say LOL!

You know, the Brady Bunch?

But I wont go there because Jan just becomes highly annoyed

tumblr_m90pmpHQBC1qfacmco1_500.jpg

I honestly didnt know Marsha was spelled that way to be honest with you LOL
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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Tennessee
#66
I was laughing because it sounded like something Marsha Brady would say LOL!

You know, the Brady Bunch?

But I wont go there because Jan just becomes highly annoyed

View attachment 99307

I honestly didnt know Marsha was spelled that way to be honest with you LOL
Jan always appeared to be constipated.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
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#67
Desired Haven,

I hope you realize I didn't mean for that post to seem judgmental.

Linguistics has fascenated me since childhood and I really thought that the etymology of the word would be eye opening.
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
3,095
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#68
Your exact quote was...Want to search for the truth in a carnal way go to the GREEK and the HEBREW.......now you are adding a WORD to what you said........! Where are the words (and not by) found in your original statement?
And i still stand by what i said. Anyone who searches for the Truth via the Greek and Hebrew, do so in a carnal way. Those who seek the Truth via the Holy Spirit, do it in a Spiritual way. The latter is BETTER
i think you do not understand the word carnal.
Carnal thinking is any thinking that comes from the minds of men.
Spiritual thinking is any thinking that comes from the Spirit of Truth.
if i think that i need to go to the Hebrew and Greek, that is carnal.
if i feel compelled by God to learn the Hebrew and Greek, that is spiritual.
Anyone who seeks the Truth, via their own mind, their own thinking, it is carnal.

How can i explain it?

Bob Knows that Tim hates him and that he is the enemy. Tim one day needed help, and Bobs sees him in need of help. Bob thinks about the Bible verse that says "LOVE YOUR ENEMIES" and "Be kind to your enemies" and "if your enemies need help, then help them" So Bob then proceeds to help Tim. This is carnal. It is good that he helped, it is good that he thought of the Bible, it is good that decided to help Tim because that is what the Bible instructs him to do. It is still CARNAL.

Bob Knows that Tim hates him and that he is the enemy. Tim one day needed help, and Bobs sees him in need of help.Bob immediately helps Tim, because even though Tim hates Bob, and Tim views Bob as the enemy. Bob loves Tim. Bob does not help Tim because the Bible says to, or instructs him to. Bob helps Tim, because it is in his heart to do so. That is SPIRITUAL.

A person can believe Jesus in a carnal way or a spiritual way. Believing is one of the steps to Salvation is it not? how can a person believe in Jesus a carnal way, you ask?

A person may read the Bible and believe what they are reading, the Bible says Jesus is the Son of God, therefore He must have been if the Bible is True and is the Word of God. This is a carnal belief.
Those who believe Jesus in a spiritual way. KNOW that He is the Son of God, not because the Bible says He is, nor because that is what men have been teaching, They KNOW He is because the Spirit of Truth has revealed it to them. They just KNOW.
People who use to be Christians and are no longer Christian, had a carnal knowledge of Jesus Christ.
Carnal knowledge increases a persons own understanding, such as gleaning Truths from the Hebrew and Greek.
Spiritual knowledge changes a persons life, and understanding altogether..

^i^ Responding to Post #39
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
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#69
I would like to see an example of Greek and Hebrew giving better understanding of scripture. To be honest, the only thing I see people use Greek and Hebrew for is too twist the meaning of scripture to make it line up with their beliefs.
This is True, hence one of the reasons i suggest people not go the Hebrew and Greek at all, They don't need to. Am i saying it is evil or wicked to go study the Hebrew and Greek, No i am not saying that at all, only saying one day, when people are no longer on the milk, and start eating the meat, they will realize, even as i did, Hebrew and Greek study will in general (not all) will deter the Holy Spirit revealing Truths to you.
Most people do not use the Hebrew and Greek to find Truths, most people use Hebrew and Greek to change the Word of God to fit their own beliefs. Now there are those who will take names and the such to the Hebrew and Greek, This is fine, and recommended, But i say a person is better off, if they merely believe the Word of God (KJV) and what it plainly says and teaches, then change your belief if it is contrary. Than to read the Word of God, not believe what it says, and then go to the Hebrew and Greek to try to find the REAL meaning of the verse which they disagree with.
Change your belief to match with what Scriptures teach.
Don't change the Scriptures to match what you believe and use the Hebrew and Greek to accomplish that goal.

^i^ Responding to Post #44
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#70
Elin said:
Agreed. . .we are saved through faith by grace (Eph 2:8-9).

So the faith God gives us is not our faith, but God's faith?

The words "the" and "of" are not in the Greek, and result in

the manifestly absurd notion that God has faith and trust in himself.

What is it that God cannot do that he must rely on faith to accomplish
?
Yes according to Ephesians, our faith is given to us by God.

Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Actually, that refers to salvation there.

Nor is it not denied that faith is a gift (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3).

I really can't comment much on the Greek because I don't know Greek. But
this makes no sense in English: "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, by
faith Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by
faith Christ". I trust God preserved his word (
like he said he would do) and translated it right.
The word "in" is understood between "faith" and "Jesus Christ," making it "faith in Jesus Christ"
and faith in God.

Your choice of the words "the" and "of" produces a manifest Biblically absurd
the faith of Jesus Christ (Gal 2:16), the faith of God (Ro 3:25).

According to Eph 2:8, we are not saved by our faith in Jesus Christ, we are saved by grace period.
Nope. . .we are saved through faith. . .by grace.

There was nothing that Jesus could not do because he had perfect faith in the Fathers word.
Non-responsive.

You did not address the biblical absurdity of God's faith--in himself (Ro 3:25).
 
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DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
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#71
I must confess to all, many times tongue-in-cheek, humor, or the like confuses me. I really thought it was quite serious being one who takes being sober minded at all times quite seriously. Please forgive that trait in me.
i am the same way. very serious. i too am flawed in that way.

^i^ Responding to Post #48
 
D

DesiredHaven

Guest
#72
Desired Haven,

I hope you realize I didn't mean for that post to seem judgmental.

Linguistics has fascenated me since childhood and I really thought that the etymology of the word would be eye opening.
Oh no, I didnt take you to be anything of the sort, I still am not sure what you said to be quite truthful, like what you even meant, you sure didnt seem to come off as judgmental.

There doesnt seem to be a reason why you should be pereceived as coming off in that manner anyway.

Over"groovy"?

Heck, I just found it funny he used the word lol

Just brought back the Brady Bunch to my remembrance but thats about as far as it goes for me

God bless you, no problems here at all, you always post kindly here too.

At least I dont feel like I am developing ulcers the more I read ya LOL
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,783
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#73
I would like to see an example of Greek and Hebrew giving better understanding of scripture. To be honest, the only thing I see people use Greek and Hebrew for is too twist the meaning of scripture to make it line up with their beliefs.
Actually, this is precisely the point of studying the original languages. To counter the cults who really do twist Scripture, and make it say what it does not. Of course, all the translations from KJV to the Message all have the truth that Jesus Christ is God. And that God is a trinity embedded in each translation.

But how do you answer JW's who say Jesus is "A" god, or something lesser than the Father? Here is something I wrote, I pray you will take the time to read.

It IS IMPORTANT. Because the Greek PROVES Jesus is God, in a way the English can never do.

"In English, the order of the sentence generally determines the use of the noun. The subject usually comes first. However, in Greek, the word order is flexible, and is used for emphasis rather than for strict grammatical functions. For example, if there are two nouns and one has the definite article, it is the subject.

Word order is also employed for the sake of emphasis. Generally, if a word is thrown to the front of a clause or sentence, it is done so for emphasis. When the predicate nominative is thrown in front of the verb, by virtue of word order it takes on emphasis.

A good illustration of this is John 1:1c. English versions usually say, “and the Word was God.” But in Greek, the word order is reversed.

Καί θεός ήν ό λόγος or (Kai theos en ho logos)
And God was the Word

We know that “the Word” is the subject, because it has the definite article and is in the nominative case and we translate it accordingly “and the Word was God.”

Two questions, both of theological importance, come to mind
1. Why was θεός (theos or God) thrown forward?
2. Why does it lack the article?

The emphatic position of θεός (theos) stresses its essence of quality” “What God was, the Word was” is how one translation brings out this force. Its lack of a definition article keeps us from identifying the Person of the Word (Jesus Christ) with the person of “God” (the Father).

That means that the word order tells us that Jesus Christ has all the divine attributes that the Father has: lack of the article tells us the Jesus Christ is not the Father.

John’s wording here is beautifully compact! It is in fact, one of the most elegantly terse theological statements one could ever find. As Martin Luther said, the lack of an article is against Sabellianism; the word order is against Arianism

To state this another way, let’s look at how the different Greek constructions would be rendered:

1. καί ό λόγος ήν ό θεός
“and the Word was the God” Sabellianism*
2. καί ό λόγος ήν θεός
“and the Word was a god” Arianism+
3. καί θεός ήν ό ΄λόγος
“and the Word was God” Orthodoxy

Mounce William D., Basics of Biblical Greek: Grammar

*Sabellianism, (also known as modalism, modalistic monarchianism, or modal monarchism) is the nontrinitarian belief that the Heavenly Father, Resurrected Son and Holy Spirit are different modes or aspects of one monadic God, as perceived by the believer, rather than three distinct persons within the Godhead.
The term Sabellianism comes from Sabellius, a theologian and priest from the 3rd century. Modalism differs from Unitarianism by accepting the Christian doctrine that Jesus is fully God.

+ Arianism is the theological teaching attributed to Arius (ca. AD 250–336), a Christian presbyter in Alexandria, Egypt, concerning the relationship of God to the Son of God (Jesus of Nazareth). Arius asserted that the Son of God was a subordinate entity to God the Father.
Arianism is defined as those teachings attributed to Arius which are in opposition to mainstream Trinitarian Christological doctrine, as determined by the first two Ecumenical Councils and currently maintained by the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Churches, the Oriental Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, all Reformation-founded Protestant churches (Lutheran, Reformed/Presbyterian, and Anglican), and a large majority of groups founded after the Reformation and calling themselves Protestant (such as Methodist, Baptist, most Pentecostals), with the exception of such groups as Oneness Pentecostals, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Jehovah's Witnesses, Iglesia ni Cristo and Branhamism"
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
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#74
When studying the Bible which is what we are commanded to do it is best to go to the original language.
Where is you MUST go to the original languages to study the Bible? Are you implying that God requires a person to become learned in order to come the Truth, in order to understand the Truth.
Tell me, when God allowed His Word (Hebrew and Greek manuscripts) to be translated into English, Why did He not not say, you MUST study the original language? The whole purpose of God allowing His Word to be translated into English was so that the English speaking people of the world, can learn HIS FULL TRUTHS, via What He had come into existence. Now i am hearing you say, that we have to also go back to the original languages. Why? Did God not do it right the first time? Is God going to lead the English speaking people astray because they believe the Word of God that He caused to come about for the English speaking people? Are you saying the English Bible is not enough? That we need to do more? study more than what God gave to the English speaking people of the world?
If you want to the study the original languages then do so, i am only saying it is not necessary, nor MUST a person do so, to come to the FULL Truth. You saying that we are commanded to study the Word of God and that it is BEST to go to the Hebrew and Greek. Do you want to know the Truth and what it far BETTER?
We are instructed to study the Word of God, i suggest you study the Word of God that God gave YOU.
People are you still without understanding? God allowed the KJV to come into existence, because HE did not want His children to have to study a DEAD language, He did not want His children to become learned in order to study a DEAD language. We have the KJV Bible with us today, because it is what God wants us to study and learn. If He wanted us to study and learn the original DEAD language, then i assure you with no doubts whatsoever, that He would not have allowed His Word to be translated into English to begin with.
It is NOT BEST to study the original DEAD languages, it is BEST to study the Bible that God gave you to study and live by. That is the Truth.

I would not argue with one who has decided not to do so. As long as they are reading the Bible GOD will speak to them to dig deeper.
The part you say "GOD will speak to them" is the part where a person will learn the Truth. This is the BEST way, those who seek the Truth some other way, is doing so carnally. Those who seek the Truth Spiritually, seek it through the Word of God and God's guidance, His speaking to them via His Word which He gave that person.

We must not interfere how and in what way GOD is teaching a person. What we must do is pray for them and answer any questions they bring our way with Biblical and Godly Wisdom. Many times when one comes on too strong it can and will cause a babe to walk away from learning all together and that will bring GOD to anger so I say please be gentle with those who are seeking even if they are in shallow water, for we all must learn and get understanding.
What you say here, is True, and i can tell you have LOVE in you. But you also have to understand, there is coming a time, which i believe is now, that there is no time left. Those who are still on milk and not meat, will in all reality be weeping and gnashing their teeth when the end comes. We have had 2,000 years to teach allow people to be on milk and grow to a spiritual level when they are then on meat, but there is coming a time, there will not be time for the milk, you either are on the meat or you are not. The closer we get to the end, the louder people are going to get to try to get people off the milk and start eating meat, before it is to late.
i really do understand what you are saying, i teach meat and only meat, there are enough preachers in the world teaching to those who are on milk, i am called to teach meat. Those who hear what i teach and spew it out, it is because they are still on milk, and when i try to feed them meat, they will spit it out. But my hope is this, that one day they will remember the meat that they spit out, while they were yet on milk, and then readily accept the meat, because they have tasted it before, even though they spewed it out at that time.
Anyone who comes across me and hear my words, will be tasting meat of the Word, regardless if they are still on the milk. NO it is not my intention, nor my desire, for them to spew it out. But i was told a long time ago, it is not my place to convince anyone of the Truth, but only to present it to them. What they do with it, is up to them, they can either spew it out, which most do, or they can digest it and live, which a very few actually has done.
Eva1218, you have a good heart, caring and compassionate for others. the Kingdom of Heaven is looking for people like you.

^i^ Responding to Post #52
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#75
I do agree with studying the Greek and Hebrew, yet I urge caution when doing so as Greek and Hebrew words do have multiple meanings as well. And I have seen some take and get into deeper holes in studying scripture, by only using partial definitions of the Greek and Hebrew words to fit their understanding as well.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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#76
What I was saying is that the word 'groovy' refers to a specific part of the female anatomy.
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
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#77
I was laughing because it sounded like something Marsha Brady would say LOL!

You know, the Brady Bunch?
yeah, i know the Brady Bunch, did i just reveal my age? lol

^i^ Responding to Post #65
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
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#78
What I was saying is that the word 'groovy' at least in its original usage referred to the groove below a woman's navel.

I was hoping to be more subtle about it.
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
3,095
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#79
Actually, this is precisely the point of studying the original languages. To counter the cults who really do twist Scripture, and make it say what it does not. Of course, all the translations from KJV to the Message all have the truth that Jesus Christ is God. And that God is a trinity embedded in each translation.

But how do you answer JW's who say Jesus is "A" god, or something lesser than the Father? Here is something I wrote, I pray you will take the time to read.

It IS IMPORTANT. Because the Greek PROVES Jesus is God, in a way the English can never do.
And this is my point, you don't NEED the GREEK to PROVE Jesus is God. A person who believes Jesus is God because the Bible says He is God, is more righteous that a person who HAS to go to the Greek to PROVE that Jesus is God. i need no proof that He is God, nobody NEEDS to study the Hebrew and Greek to PROVE that He is God. He is God, because the Bible says He is God. PERIOD. No further proof needed. Why would someone seek this PROOF, unless they doubted to begin with.

Do you see the problem. Those who are spiritual, do not need proof nor do they go looking for the proof. Listen to your statement
Because the Greek PROVES Jesus is God, in a way the English can never do.
Are we Christians not instructed to believe the Word of God on FAITH, not based on PROOF. The English Bible most assuredly teaches that Jesus is God, because it says "Jesus is God" IF i 100% believe the English Bible that says Jesus is God, then what more can i add to that 100% by studying the Greek? If i believe the English Bible and what it says, why would i need to study the GREEK to get the Proof? i already know it is the Truth, don't NEED the Greek to prove it.
Now if the lost, don't believe that Jesus is God, even though that is what the Bible teaches, then by all means show them, or the doubters, the Greek which proves that He is God. But here is the Truth, if they do not believe the Word of God which plainly teach He is God, they will not believe the Greek either.
Now am i saying it is not interesting? No, it is very interesting that the Greek PROVES Jesus is God, but that information is something i already knew to be True, via the English KJV Bible.

^i^ Responding to Post #73
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
3,095
69
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#80
What I was saying is that the word 'groovy' at least in its original usage referred to the groove below a woman's navel.

I was hoping to be more subtle about it.
Brother and Sister, this made me laugh out loud. Truly though, wish i did not know this knowledge, one day someone will say groovy, and will have to explain why i just laughed.

^i^ Responding to Post #78