A Generalized Question

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JesusistheChrist

Guest
#41
Read any and all versions you care to, but it is advisable to pray first each time you open the Word.

I like languages, so I read in a few, or have read in a few. All are inspired by our Father, however it is nice, when reading Hebrew, to see first hand what each name will translate to in English. One of my favorite full translations is the name of the town of Bethleham. Our Lord, Who is the Bread from Heaven, was born there, and Bethlehem translates to "House of Bread." Now is this not an underscoring of our faith, and a blessing?
Personally, I like what Yeshua's/Jesus' Name means in either Hebrew or Greek:

Online Etymology Dictionary

Jesus

late 12c. (Old English used hælend "savior"), from Greek Iesous, which is an attempt to render into Greek the Aramaic proper name Jeshua (Hebrew Yeshua) "Jah is salvation," a common Jewish personal name, the later form of Hebrew Yehoshua (see Joshua).
Yes, Yeshua/Jesus means "Jah is salvation"...as in SALVATION FROM SIN:

"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." (Matthew 1:21)

Unfortunately and ironically, many people here on this forum, the OP included, don't believe the same in Hebrew, Greek, English or Swahili. No, just try to tell them that Jesus actually saves us FROM our sins and not just the consequences of the same and they'll go ballistic.

IOW, just another hypocritical thread...
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#42
Maybe tell that person that to study the bible in English, German etc. is also carnal. Hey, just soar over words on a page with your co-pilot the Holy Spirit. Who needs all those words on a page anyways? (hehe)
:)...........well, that may be part of the problem? God will not settle for being our CO-pilot........He wants to be our PILOT. :)
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#43
So many people I have known, myself included, have studied Hebrw for this very reason, having learned what some names translate as. They ratify what we have already learned of the Holy Spirit. It is not necessary read in any language if the Holy Spirit is indeed leading an individual, but it is so gratifying, learning some of the translations ince they are mostly regarded as simply names in languages to which they have been translated. God bless you.

What? You mean the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit does not speak to us in Greek and/or Hebrew only? What?

Hmm.............(oh yeah, God is not the author of confusion............ok, never mind)
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#44
I would like to see an example of Greek and Hebrew giving better understanding of scripture. To be honest, the only thing I see people use Greek and Hebrew for is too twist the meaning of scripture to make it line up with their beliefs.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#45
Where have you seen that I have even hinted at this? How many times have I posted it is the Holy Spirit Who teaches all of us. I have posted one may get the truth from a cook book if it is God's will. Pay attention to th econtent of the post ok?


What? You mean the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit does not speak to us in Greek and/or Hebrew only? What?

Hmm.............(oh yeah, God is not the author of confusion............ok, never mind)
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#46
Brother D, don't let people bog you down with such stumbling blocks. I know you already know that.

God is not confined to any language and God's people are not carnal for seeking greater understanding.
(Utah: not directed at you........speaking in general concerning the highlighted)

So, we agree that those who do not read Greek or Hebrew are able to obtain salvation, sanctification, justification and eternal life through their study of His Word translated into English?

Or are all those multilingual deficient people doomed to eternal damnation?

Is God powerful enough to assure that His written word will not be corrupted? Or does He not care if it is? Do people believe that God cares so little for so very many people in this world that He would allow His written word to be corrupted, and thus they would miss the salvation train?

The God I love and serve surely is all powerful.........and able to preserve His written word.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#47
Where have you seen that I have even hinted at this? How many times have I posted it is the Holy Spirit Who teaches all of us. I have posted one may get the truth from a cook book if it is God's will. Pay attention to th econtent of the post ok?
Tongue in cheek Brother.......should have put a :) there I suppose..........it was a sarcastic wit comment......
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#48
I must confess to all, many times tongue-in-cheek, humor, or the like confuses me. I really thought it was quite serious being one who takes being sober minded at all times quite seriously. Please forgive that trait in me.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#49
I must confess to all, many times tongue-in-cheek, humor, or the like confuses me. I really thought it was quite serious being one who takes being sober minded at all times quite seriously. Please forgive that trait in me.
You, of all here, never have to ask my forgiveness........just though that you would understand I was agreeing with your comment I quoted.

But, then, knowing the daily attacks you weather here, I should have just put an "Amen" there........ :)

God bless and keep you and yours........and continue to stand in support of the Gospel of Jesus Christ........
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#50
I would like to see an example of Greek and Hebrew giving better understanding of scripture. To be honest, the only thing I see people use Greek and Hebrew for is too twist the meaning of scripture to make it line up with their beliefs.
Sounds like a defense of some of the KJV inadequate translations.

Did they know koine Greek back then?
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#51
Sounds like a defense of some of the KJV inadequate translations.

Did they know koine Greek back then?
No I'm not defending the KJV Elin. I just wanted to know how studying the original languages gives better understanding of scripture. Specifically I was looking for some examples.

Did they know koine Greek back then? I don't know, i don't spend much time with that type of thing.
 
E

Eva1218

Guest
#52
When studying the Bible which is what we are commanded to do it is best to go to the original language. I would not argue with one who has decided not to do so. As long as they are reading the Bible GOD will speak to them to dig deeper. We must not interfere how and in what way GOD is teaching a person. What we must do is pray for them and answer any questions they bring our way with Biblical and Godly Wisdom. Many times when one comes on too strong it can and will cause a babe to walk away from learning all together and that will bring GOD to anger so I say please be gentle with those who are seeking even if they are in shallow water, for we all must learn and get understanding.

Blessings!!!!!!!
 
Dec 1, 2014
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#53
(Utah: not directed at you........speaking in general concerning the highlighted)

So, we agree that those who do not read Greek or Hebrew are able to obtain salvation, sanctification, justification and eternal life through their study of His Word translated into English?

Or are all those multilingual deficient people doomed to eternal damnation?

Is God powerful enough to assure that His written word will not be corrupted? Or does He not care if it is? Do people believe that God cares so little for so very many people in this world that He would allow His written word to be corrupted, and thus they would miss the salvation train?

The God I love and serve surely is all powerful.........and able to preserve His written word.
No worries, Brother! It's alright if it was directed at me; I'm here to learn and value what you share. :)

And I like what you've shared with this post regarding God's love and Word.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#54
No I'm not defending the KJV Elin. I just wanted to know how studying the original languages gives better understanding of scripture.
Specifically I was looking for some examples.
Gal 2:16 - "Knowing that a man is justified. . .by the faith of Jesus Christ. . .justified by the faith of Christ. . ."

The words "the" and "of" are not in the Greek, the phrase is simply "faith Jesus Christ,"
and by choosing to add the words "the" and "of" rather than just the word "in," the whole gospel
is altered from salvation through our faith in Jesus Christ, to salvation not by our faith, but by Jesus' faith.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#55
Gal 2:16 - "Knowing that a man is justified. . .by the faith of Jesus Christ. . .justified by the faith of Christ. . ."

The words "the" and "of" are not in the Greek, the phrase is simply "faith Jesus Christ,"
and by choosing to add the words "the" and "of" rather than just the word "in," the whole gospel
is altered from salvation through our faith in Jesus Christ, to salvation not by our faith, but by Jesus' faith.
According to Eph 2:8, we are not saved by our faith in Jesus Christ, we are saved by grace period. The method of salvation is through faith and that faith is not OUR own faith, it is the faith of God (Jesus Christ) which God has given to us. We don't have to work for anything to get salvation.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
The true meaning of Gal 2:16 is that a man is not justified by works, he is justified because of the faith of Jesus Christ. The faith of Christ allowed him to do all that God command of him, fulfilling the law and death on the cross. If he hadn't done that, we would not be saved. We are saved by the faith of Christ.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
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#56
Hmmm...
I can definitely say that there are some preachers who use lexicons as a way to sort through definitions till they find one that suits their personal agenda...
True.

But as a whole, the study of Greek and Hebrew is a well rewarded study, both in growing in the knowledge of the Word, and in learning new things that the English cannot translate: like the poetic structures of the Psalms and Proverbs, and the double meanings of certain words (like when Christ said "I am the bread of life", it is a play on words, along with being a deep theological statement.)
Yes it can be very rewarding to study Greek and Hebrew, i did myself, and it was rewarding. However which is better.
To learn what "I am the bread of life" really means via the Hebrew and Greek
or
To learn what "I am the bread of life" really means via The Holy Spirit of God?

That is what i have been saying all along. A person does NOT need to go to the Hebrew or Greek to glean Truth, even though you can glean Truth from them, the carnal way (not saying that is evil, only saying there is a better way)

You may learn on your own, and through your own intellegence what "I am the bread of life" really means via the Hebrew and Greek, and because it was gleaned from your own intelligence, it was done carnally. To learn it from the Holy Spirit is BETTER. and is what people should seek to understand the Truth. Those who seek the Truth other than through the Holy Spirit of God seek it carnally. The problem is when i say that, people associate carnal to be a bad word, and therefore think i am saying to study the Hebrew and Greek is carnal, is somehow saying it is evil. That is not what i am saying.

i studies Hebrew and Greek, and it was rewarding at the time, But here is the Truth, it was but dung compared to what the Holy Ghost can teach you, and that is the Truth. Those who seek the Truth from Hebrew and Greek, are seeking the Truth from the wrong place, NOT saying it is evil to seek the Truth there, only trying to tell you there is a BETTER way, then the Hebrew and Greek.

^i^ Responding to Post #20
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#57
True.



Yes it can be very rewarding to study Greek and Hebrew, i did myself, and it was rewarding. However which is better.
To learn what "I am the bread of life" really means via the Hebrew and Greek
or
To learn what "I am the bread of life" really means via The Holy Spirit of God?

That is what i have been saying all along. A person does NOT need to go to the Hebrew or Greek to glean Truth, even though you can glean Truth from them, the carnal way (not saying that is evil, only saying there is a better way)

You may learn on your own, and through your own intellegence what "I am the bread of life" really means via the Hebrew and Greek, and because it was gleaned from your own intelligence, it was done carnally. To learn it from the Holy Spirit is BETTER. and is what people should seek to understand the Truth. Those who seek the Truth other than through the Holy Spirit of God seek it carnally. The problem is when i say that, people associate carnal to be a bad word, and therefore think i am saying to study the Hebrew and Greek is carnal, is somehow saying it is evil. That is not what i am saying.

i studies Hebrew and Greek, and it was rewarding at the time, But here is the Truth, it was but dung compared to what the Holy Ghost can teach you, and that is the Truth. Those who seek the Truth from Hebrew and Greek, are seeking the Truth from the wrong place, NOT saying it is evil to seek the Truth there, only trying to tell you there is a BETTER way, then the Hebrew and Greek.

^i^ Responding to Post #20
You are absolutely right Dave. We all know what bread means... we need the Holy Ghost to show us what the bread means. The Holy Ghost brings this to our minds.

Mat_16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

The Holy Ghost teaches that Christ is the bread (doctrine) of life. :)
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
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#58
DiscipleDave - You are nuts. All you need is Jesus and the Word of God. Firstly you need to know a language. A language is made up of cultural summaries of objects, ideas, relationships etc. Each culture uses different symbols and pictures to mean similar and slightly different things.
Did i not say Jesus AND the WORD of God, by saying AND THE WORD OF GOD, it is implied that that person knows the language of that WORD of God. And by saying that i am nuts, is that of God or of satan? Tell me, Where is your LOVE for me? If Jesus were Truly in you, would you not LOVE ME, and not me only, but everyone. Do you say to someone you LOVE, you are nuts? Jokingly, i can see, but it does not seem to me you said this in a joking manner, but said it in a way to cause hurt, to put down someone else, to belittle another. These things are not of God.

By looking into what the writer meant and the symbols they were using can help bring to light the intention and nuance intended. This is a good thing, to look at things from different angles, and to see possible meaning that we no longer have because our culture is so different.
This thinking is in error, Is it not written interpretations belong to God. When men, through their own power and intellegence started interpreting the Word of God and what THEY (man) thought it means, is the reason we have so many false doctrines today, the reason we have so many different denominations, the reason we have so many different versions of the Bible. Interpretations belong to God, NOT TO MEN. True interpretations of the Word of God comes from the Holy Spirit of Truth, NOT from the minds of men, from their own thinking, from their own intellegence.
A person can study Hebrew and Greek, Study the Bible, study all the ancient manuscripts their entire life, and NEVER come to the knowledge of the Truth. The Truth comes from God, NOT from the minds of men with their own interpretations.

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21: For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

This applies to ALL the Word of God, not just to prophesies. Notice Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the HOLY GHOST, they were not moved by their own thinking, or their own interpretations, but moved by God.

On top of this the reader and listener are biased by their own experiences and biases so meanings and implications can be lost.
And it is because of this Truth, that God interprets, and men are NOT to interpret, because of those very reasons you just mentioned. And because men to interpret, we now have a thousand false doctrines being taught, hundreds of different denominations, and many versions of the Bible, ALL of which came about, because of men and their OWN interpretations of what THEY THINK the Word of God means.

The funny thing that makes me laugh, is Jesus put such simple and yet complex concepts in parables which transcend language and are often easy to translate. But to get "new" meaning people love to delve too deeply when the obvious is hitting them in the face. Take a simple phrase, women should not have authority over men.
Now the context is women of Pauls time had no education, had very limited experience and interaction. Much of their questions and issues were from the lack of information, not because women are inferior to men. You could validly argue that most of the conflict in the world and problems are caused be men. Our agressive attitudes lead to conflicts where there could more easily be compromise. The church has often grown where women have been given caring, pastoral roles, because us men are often not sensitive or observant enough to see struggles or issues going on but are hidden.

Now where is the truth. Is it in the plain words or also in the context? Where is the love, is it in seeking the best for all people or in disagreement about what a writer might or might not have meant?
Tell me, which is better in the eyes of the LIVING GOD?

A woman who merely believes the verse that says "women should not have authority over men." And thereby lives by it.
or
A woman who reads the verse that says "women should not have authority over men." Does not believe it, and therefore goes to the Hebrew and Greek to figure out what it is REALLY trying to say, OR they excuse that verse saying it no longer applies to women in this last days generation, because Paul spoke to the women in those days who were ignorant.?
i will tell you the Truth, those who merely believe the Word of God and live it, are more pleasing to God then those who disagree with the Word of God and do whatever they must to CHANGE the Word to fit their own beliefs.

^i^ Responding to Post #22
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
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#59
Read any and all versions you care to, but it is advisable to pray first each time you open the Word.
Absolutely, seek help from God, not from your own understanding.

I like languages, so I read in a few, or have read in a few. All are inspired by our Father, however it is nice, when reading Hebrew, to see first hand what each name will translate to in English. One of my favorite full translations is the name of the town of Bethleham. Our Lord, Who is the Bread from Heaven, was born there, and Bethlehem translates to "House of Bread." Now is this not an underscoring of our faith, and a blessing?
True, Do you know how i knew Bethlehem is the "House of Bread" not because of Hebrew or Greek, but because the Word of God (KJV) plainly teaches that Jesus is the Bread, and that Jesus is from Bethlehem. Bethlehem can now also translate as "Birthplace of the Savior" or "Birthplace of the Son of God" or "Home of the Light" or "House of the Truth" or All these things would be TRUE. But a billion time a billion times a billion Earth years from now, Bethlehem will not even be thought of. Humankind, is but a vapor, a wisp of smoke, temporary. Bethlehem is significant to humans, not to the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus existed prior to being born human.

^i^ Responding to Post #23
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#60
Elin said:
Gal 2:16 - "Knowing that a man is justified. . .by the faith of Jesus Christ. . .justified by the faith of Christ. . ."

The words "the" and "of" are not in the Greek, the phrase is simply "faith Jesus Christ,"
and by choosing to add the words "the" and "of" rather than just the word "in,"
the whole gospel is altered from salvation through our faith in Jesus Christ, to salvation not by our faith, but by Jesus' faith.
According to Eph 2:8, we are not saved by our^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^faith in Jesus Christ, we are saved by grace period.
Agreed. . .we are saved through faith by^^^^^^^^^^^^grace (Eph 2:8-9).

The method of salvation is through faith and that faith is not OUR own faith, it is the faith of God (Jesus Christ) which God has given to us. We don't have to work for anything to get salvation.
So the faith God gives us is not our faith, but God's faith?

The words "the" and "of" are not in the Greek, and result in

the manifestly absurd notion that God has faith and trust in himself.

What is it that God cannot do that he must rely on faith to accomplish?
 
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