Legalism empowers DEMONS in your life!

[Delivery]

While I do not believe in Works Based Salvationism or Legalism, we obviously are not talking about the ignoring of the moral law here (with the thinking that you are saved no matter how you live), right? For if one can think they can do evil or sin and think they are saved, then Jesus, Paul, and Peter would be in disagreement with them big time. For Paul says, be not deceived for the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. Then Paul lists certain sins (Such as murder, hate, theft, sexual immorality, etc.). Paul also says if any man teaches contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of godliness is proud and knows nothing. So while I am against Legalism or a rules based system of salvation, it is just as equally wrong to say we do not uphold no law whatseover as a part of being saved. For shall we continue in sin because we are not under the Law? Paul replies, God forbid.

Legalists have a hard time understanding spiritual concepts. Your mindset knows that our Salvation is only by Grace, not by works because that's what the scriptures teach and you read it and believe it. But your legalistic mindset prevents you from going all the way with the freedom from sin that Salvation gives us. For example you continually quote Paul using these verses:

[SUP]1[/SUP] What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[SUP]2[/SUP] God forbid.

I'm not disagreeing with Paul, but I'd like to refer you to some thing that the Apostle John said:

[SUP]9[/SUP] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So, I agree with the Apostle Paul that just cause we're saved by grace doesn't mean we should continue in sin. But I also agree with the Apostle John that those of us who are saved born again Christians can't sin anymore anyway. Our Faith in Jesus keeps us from being sinners and from sinning. But people who have a problem with legalism have a hard time understanding these verses in John and these spiritual concepts. Righteousness and sinlessness are automatically bestowed upon us by our Faith in Jesus.John says the same thing a few times in his epistle:

[SUP]18[/SUP] We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. ( People who sin don't know Jesus, People who know Jesus don't sin.) (The reason people sin is because they don't know Jesus, The reason born of God people don't sin is because they do know Jesus.) It doesn't have anything to do with how well you can keep the 10 commandments or any other rules. See? We have to take everything in the context of how the apostles meant it when they first wrote it.

For example, back to what Paul said, Shall we continue in sin because we are not under the law? He was simply saying, Just because we are not under the law anymore doesn't mean we should go hog wild committing murder, adultery, fornication, thefts, drunkenness, etc. and break every law in the book. So, who's doing that or teaching that? Not anybody in this forum that I can think of. So, therefore it's wrong to make such judgmental accusations against people who go a step further than you in their belief in the freedom from sin that Salvation and forgiveness of sins brings us through receiving Jesus as our Lord and Savior. After all, isn't that what your doing? Accusing people who believe in Salvation by grace of believing that now that we're saved we can just go out and commit "murder, hate, theft, sexual immorality, Etc." Those are the exact words you used right? But, again, I haven't heard anybody in this forum actually teach that, which makes your accusation a false one. But as far as committing sins go, we're all sinners and we all sin in the sense that we all make mistakes, succumb to different temptations to disobey, and make wrong decisions in our life,etc., including you. Or are you interpreting what Paul said to mean that once we're saved we shouldn't be allowed to commit any kind of sin or make mistakes or wrong decisions, or disobey the 10 commandments or else we will lose our Salvation? See? This is what a legalist is, somebody who judges others for their sins and disobedience's, when they are just as much a sinner.

Another verse you quoted was:

If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
[SUP]4[/SUP] He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
[SUP]5[/SUP] Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

That's good. But to take it all into context we have to look at the words of our Lord Jesus Christ and see exactly what is the doctrine that is according to godliness.

[SUP]37[/SUP] All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.


[SUP]39[/SUP] And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
[SUP]40[/SUP] And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (Believe in Jesus and you will live forever. There's nothing in there about obeying the 10 commandments)


[SUP]34[/SUP] A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
[SUP]35[/SUP] By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:


But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Judge not, that ye be not judged.
[SUP]2[/SUP] For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
[SUP]3[/SUP] And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
[SUP]4[/SUP] Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
[SUP]5[/SUP] Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

(These are all words of Jesus, so let's consent to them. Legalists condemn others for their sins because they base their opinions on what makes a good Christian on how much somebody obeys the moral code or the 10 commandments or other sets of rules rather than on the simple fact that somebody believes in Jesus and therefore is born of God and has all of their sins forgiven them. Being non-judgmental, being forgiving, and loving one another are all synonymous. Legalists have a hard time abiding by these New testament rules that supplant the old testament obedience to the letter of the law.

 

[Joidevivre]

"My grace is sufficient".

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

The Law of God is not evil, the law of God is not sin.....sin is evil, sin is sin.

Romans 7:12
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Word up!

 

[Jason0047]

Legalists have a hard time understanding spiritual concepts. Your mindset knows that our Salvation is only by Grace, not by works because that's what the scriptures teach and you read it and believe it. But your legalistic mindset prevents you from going all the way with the freedom from sin that Salvation gives us. For example you continually quote Paul using these verses:

[SUP]1[/SUP] What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[SUP]2[/SUP]God forbid.

I'm not disagreeing with Paul, but I'd like to refer you to some thing that the Apostle John said:

[SUP]9[/SUP]Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So, I agree with the Apostle Paul that just cause we're saved by grace doesn't mean we should continue in sin. But I also agree with the Apostle John that those of us who are saved born again Christians can't sin anymore anyway. Our Faith in Jesus keeps us from being sinners and from sinning. But people who have a problem with legalism have a hard time understanding these verses in John and these spiritual concepts. Righteousness and sinlessness are automatically bestowed upon us by our Faith in Jesus.John says the same thing a few times in his epistle:

[SUP]18[/SUP]We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. ( People who sin don't know Jesus, People who know Jesus don't sin.) (The reason people sin is because they don't know Jesus, The reason born of God people don't sin is because they do know Jesus.) It doesn't have anything to do with how well you can keep the 10 commandments or any other rules. See? We have to take everything in the context of how the apostles meant it when they first wrote it.

For example, back to what Paul said, Shall we continue in sin because we are not under the law? He was simply saying, Just because we are not under the law anymore doesn't mean we should go hog wild committing murder, adultery, fornication, thefts, drunkenness, etc. and break every law in the book. So, who's doing that or teaching that? Not anybody in this forum that I can think of. So, therefore it's wrong to make such judgmental accusations against people who go a step further than you in their belief in the freedom from sin that Salvation and forgiveness of sins brings us through receiving Jesus as our Lord and Savior. After all, isn't that what your doing? Accusing people who believe in Salvation by grace of believing that now that we're saved we can just go out and commit "murder, hate, theft, sexual immorality, Etc." Those are the exact words you used right? But, again, I haven't heard anybody in this forum actually teach that, which makes your accusation a false one. But as far as committing sins go, we're all sinners and we all sin in the sense that we all make mistakes, succumb to different temptations to disobey, and make wrong decisions in our life,etc., including you. Or are you interpreting what Paul said to mean that once we're saved we shouldn't be allowed to commit any kind of sin or make mistakes or wrong decisions, or disobey the 10 commandments or else we will lose our Salvation? See? This is what a legalist is, somebody who judges others for their sins and disobedience's, when they are just as much a sinner.

Another verse you quoted was:

If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
[SUP]4[/SUP] He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
[SUP]5[/SUP] Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

That's good. But to take it all into context we have to look at the words of our Lord Jesus Christ and see exactly what is the doctrine that is according to godliness.

[SUP]37[/SUP] All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.


[SUP]39[/SUP] And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
[SUP]40[/SUP] And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (Believe in Jesus and you will live forever. There's nothing in there about obeying the 10 commandments)


[SUP]34[/SUP] A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
[SUP]35[/SUP] By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:


But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Judge not, that ye be not judged.
[SUP]2[/SUP] For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
[SUP]3[/SUP] And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
[SUP]4[/SUP] Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
[SUP]5[/SUP] Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

(These are all words of Jesus, so let's consent to them. Legalists condemn others for their sins because they base their opinions on what makes a good Christian on how much somebody obeys the moral code or the 10 commandments or other sets of rules rather than on the simple fact that somebody believes in Jesus and therefore is born of God and has all of their sins forgiven them. Being non-judgmental, being forgiving, and loving one another are all synonymous. Legalists have a hard time abiding by these New testament rules that supplant the old testament obedience to the letter of the law.

Uh, 1 John 3 is not saying a believer is not capable of not sinning. 1 John 2:1 says if we sin, we have an advocate named Jesus Christ. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). 1 John 3 does not defend the idea that a believer cannot commit sin. Verse 10 says whosever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

1 John 3:6 and 1 John 3:9 are in reference to a believer not abiding in habitual unrepentant sin as way of life. If you were to look at other translations, this becomes clear, my friend.

 

[Jason0047]

So then Paul is teaching love, not legalism... Love is obedience , legalism is not!

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

First, the OT Law of Moses is no longer binding. Second, the moral law has not been destroyed, though. Third, loving fulfills the moral law and it is not legalism. Four, when a person repents of their sin and accepts Christ and is saved, they will then naturally obey the moral law. Five, Romans 7 is Paul speaking from his perspective as a Jew before he became a Christian. Paul says in verse 14 that he is carnal and sold under sin. Yet in Romans 8:2 Paul says Christ Jesus has made him free from the law of sin and death. Is Paul contradicting himself? No. As I said before. Romans 7 is Paul speaking from his experience as a Jew obeying the Law. Which would mean Romans 8:1 is the solution for the Jew who is struggling to keep the Law. For Romans 8 is his counsel for the Christian.

 

[Mitspa]

Why Are Legalists Mean?


If a person has to measure up in order to be acceptable to God, he’s in trouble. His actions, both past and present, do not meet the standards he believes are necessary. How does he survive the thoughts that this produces? (This is the inner conflict that causes performance people to be depressed and just plain mean.) The only way to feel better is through comparisons. He may not measure up to the ideal, but he may be able to surpass you. When he measures himself against others, he has a competitive system of spirituality that moves him to hide his own sins while pointing out those of others. Of course, this doesn’t help his true problems. He may still be depressed and/or mean, but he will have something going for him. He may actually feel better about himself.


If he thinks in terms of a competition then he will probably see only right and wrong, good and bad, superior and inferior, winners and losers. When one is right the other, who disagrees, must be wrong. One of the tenets of the performance system is that superior spirituality will lead to higher honor and increased influence/power. If he accepts that successfully spiritual people have more influence/power, then he may also accept that the one who causes another to act in a certain way is the spiritually superior one.

When performance people read that the strong are to yield to the struggles of the weak, they find themselves in a logical loop. They want to be the stronger, because that appears to be the superior position, but they see that the weak have the influence they desire. Remember that the goal is not real growth. The goal is to be considered more spiritual. The one with the influence is more spiritual. Thus, to be weaker, according to their system, is to be stronger. And around and around we go…

 

[Mitspa]

The Law of God is not evil, the law of God is not sin.....sin is evil, sin is sin.

Romans 7:12
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Word up!

Good...walk in the Spirit...not legalism ...

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

 

[Mitspa]

First, the OT Law of Moses is no longer binding. Second, the moral law has not been destroyed, though. Third, loving fulfills the moral law and it is not legalism. Four, when a person repents of their sin and accepts Christ and is saved, they will then naturally obey the moral law. Five, Romans 7 is Paul speaking from his perspective as a Jew before he became a Christian. Paul says in verse 14 that he is carnal and sold under sin. Yet in Romans 8:2 Paul says Christ Jesus has made him free from the law of sin and death. Is Paul contradicting himself? No. As I said before. Romans 7 is Paul speaking from his experience as a Jew obeying the Law. Which would mean Romans 8:1 is the solution for the Jew who is struggling to keep the Law. For Romans 8 is his counsel for the Christian.

All your saying is what I have been saying...but your trying to mix legalism in with walking in the Spirit...faith and love

YES! we have obedience, but its not to the written legal code of the law (Ten Commandments and all the law)

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. 7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Please don't make the argument that the Jews and Gentiles are somehow different in relation to the law and its purpose.

 

[Delivery]

Uh, 1 John 3 is not saying a believer is not capable of not sinning. 1 John 2:1 says if we sin, we have an advocate named Jesus Christ. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). 1 John 3 does not defend the idea that a believer cannot commit sin. Verse 10 says whosever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

1 John 3:6 and 1 John 3:9 are in reference to a believer not abiding in habitual unrepentant sin as way of life. If you were to look at other translations, this becomes clear, my friend.

I view it from the standpoint that once we confess our sins and receive Jesus' forgiveness for them then all of our sins are forgiven forever. This verse in chapter one is about Salvation. It's not a case where every time we sin and make a mistake, do wrong things, etc. that we have to continually and habitually confess all our sins every day in order to continually receive forgiveness for them. All of our sins are completely forgiven forever once we confess that we are a sinner and then ask Jesus for forgiveness and accept His atonement for our sins. Otherwise you're saying that Salvation is an ongoing process and we have to keep repenting of our sins all the time in order to keep receiving forgiveness. I don't agree with that doctrine. I believe all your sins are forgiven, all past, present and future sins, forever, from the moment you get saved.

I know that the Apostle John didn't mean to say that once you are born of God that you will never sin, make mistakes do bad things etc. I believe I even mentioned this later on in my post. But what I do believe John meant was that once we confess our sins, are saved and born again then all of our sins are forgiven us forever. It doesn't mean you won't ever sin, but it does mean that when you do sin your sins are already forgiven and covered by the blood of Jesus. You are not condemned for them. Our advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous Defends us and the slate is wiped clean and we are found "not Guilty" by reason of forgiveness.

The verse about "he that does not righteousness is not of God" also refers to our Faith in Jesus. How does one become righteous? By keeping the 10 commandments. Since all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, then nobody has the righteous ability to do good and be good on their own by keeping the law. SO, what does that mean? It means that the only way to become righteous is to have your sins forgiven and righteousness automatically imputed upon you by faith. And, of course, the only way that could happen is by receiving and believing in Jesus. So the best way to paraphrase the verse in order to get the correct meaning is to say:

Whosoever does not believe in Jesus is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother. Because "doing righteousness" in this context simply means to believe in Jesus. Because that's the only way to become righteous.

If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. (Since we know that Jesus is righteous then we know that if we believe in Him we are born of God.)

[SUP]7[/SUP] Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. (If we believe in Jesus, Do Righteousness, then that means we are righteous just like Jesus is righteous.)

[SUP]23[/SUP] And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. (And here John further clarifies the point by saying that the commandments we need to keep are really only 1. believe in Jesus, and 2. love one another.)

And if you look at my post again I also used scripture to show you that loving one another also means being forgiving. If you have a critical attitude toward some body who you see isn't acting right or is disobedient then you are being disobedient to the Love one another part of Jesus commandments.

 

[Mitspa]

1. LEGALISM TAKES THE FOCUS OFF CHRIST . And places it on self. Attempts to keep rules inevitably take one’s eyes off the sufficiency of God’s grace and instead place them on those rules. It is not that observing moral rules are inconsequential to the life of faith. They are not. Sin matters. But God would rather we gaze on Him and receive strength for obedience than self-righteously attempt to be ‘good’.

That legalism does not encourage focus on Christ is amply illustrated in the lives of the members of churches that are legalistic. In some of these groups, one is holy only to the extent that one’s dressing or hairstyle or prayer posture or mannerism or whatever else is consistent with those deemed appropriate. So one finds these Christians checking the veracity of their Christian profession, not against the holy scriptures, but against human standards.

2. LEGALISM BRINGS GUILT. Those of us who have attempted to be ‘good’ by making resolutions backed by willpower know that such attempts are utterly futile. They are doomed for failure.

And guilt is usually the fruit of this failure. Ironically, this guilt , rather than serving to discourage the immoral act, actually reinforces it. And the cycle continues. ‘ I should not…’ ,’ I should…’, ‘ I resolve to…’,etc do not make temptations any less tempting. They only serve to exacerbate guilt upon yielding to the temptation. But the freedom( a word the legalist probably doesn’t like to use) and love that Christ offer are way more potent in really living above sin.

3. LEGALISM BRINGS PRIDE. Pride in what he has done to be ‘right’ with God. Pride in feeling himself more ‘holy’ than the others. And self glory that others are not on the ‘right’ track; that he is the ‘real’ christian. Just like in the account of the self-righteous Pharisee and the tax collector. The former believed himself to be more observant of the law than the latter. But He was not declared righteous before God. And the ‘sinful’ tax collector was. For God detests every form of pride. Even pride about one’s spiritual state!

4. LEGALISM LEADS TO BONDAGE. And that was the apostle Paul’s main burden in His letter to the Galatian Christians. He was afraid that they were in danger of trading their freedom in Christ for the chains of legalism.He maintained that their freedom was earned by Christ. They have been justified (declared righteous) by His grace. Trying to earn their righteousness will only take them back to where they were before their encounter with the gospel.

Similarly, legalism, even today, results in bondage. Mark this: Legalism destroys the joy of salvation. It is the perfect joy-killer!

5. LEGALISM KILLS LOVE. Love and legalism are diametrically opposed. This should come as no surprise really. For pride and love are eternal enemies. The legalist , as ironical as this may sound, doesn’t really love God. He is only being selfish. He is concerned more with the rewards he imagines God giving him than he is concerned about truly pleasing God. In relation to those who do not follow him to ”keep rules” he has nothing but contempt. How can scorn foster love?

 

[Jason0047]

All your saying is what I have been saying...but your trying to mix legalism in with walking in the Spirit...faith and love

YES! we have obedience, but its not to the written legal code of the law (Ten Commandments and all the law)

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. 7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Please don't make the argument that the Jews and Gentiles are somehow different in relation to the law and its purpose.

What I am trying to understand from your beliefs is do you believe you can covet, lust, hate, etc. and still be saved while doing so? Or do you need to repent and or confess of those sins? See, it comes down to either:

(a) You believe all future sin is forgiven (And no sin can separate you from Christ) (Antinomianism) (or)
(b) You must confess and repent of your sin (i.e. you must admit your sin before Jesus and forsake it with His help). (Which is what the Bible teaches). (or)
(c) You must perform certain religious works tomorrow and the next day to be saved. (Works Based Salvation)

The obedience of the moral law is merely an after effect that shows ones faith to be true. If one is not obeying the moral law as a way of life, then they are showing they have not been saved or they do not have God living within them.

In other words, do you believe you can abide in unrepentant sin (Such as hate, theft, lying, etc.) at any point in your life and still be saved?

 

[Jason0047]

Obeying the moral law is not Works Based Salvationism. Why? Well, because one is already saved by repenting of their sins and accepting Jesus (Which is a free gift); And then from there....Christ does the good work within the true believer. Holiness and fruitful works is not done for salvation. They are just the proof that you have been saved and that God lives within you. Sort of like how waves in an ocean are usually proof that there is wind blowing upon the waters. Waves are just the byproduct of wind hitting water. In other words, you cannot have waves unless there is wind and or some kind of object in the water disturbing it.

 

[Jason0047]

Romans 7 is talking about Paul's struggle with the Law as a Jew. Romans 8:1 is the solution. There is no Condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK after the Spirit. Again, Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin. But if Paul was saying this as a Christian, then he would be contradicting himself because just a few verses later in Romans 8:2 he says Christ Jesus has made him free from the law of sin and death. So which is it? Is Paul sold under sin? Or is Paul made free from the law of sin and death? You cannot have it both ways in being a Christian. It is either one or the other.

 

[Mitspa]

What I am trying to understand from your beliefs is do you believe you can covet, lust, hate, etc. and still be saved while doing so? Or do you need to repent and or confess of those sins? See, it comes down to either:

(a) You believe all future sin is forgiven (And no sin can separate you from Christ) (Antinomianism) (or)
(b) You must confess and repent of your sin (i.e. you must admit your sin before Jesus and forsake it with His help). (Which is what the Bible teaches). (or)
(c) You must perform certain religious works tomorrow and the next day to be saved. (Works Based Salvation)

The obedience of the moral law is merely an after effect that shows ones faith to be true. If one is not obeying the moral law as a way of life, then they are showing they have not been saved or they do not have God living within them.

In other words, do you believe you can abide in unrepentant sin (Such as hate, theft, lying, etc.) at any point in your life and still be saved?

When I have said any of that? In fact what I have taught is true obedience by the Spirit...Through faith and love.

Legalism is not obedience, its the flesh trying to justify itself through the written code of the law. Its and outward appearance of obedience, it hypocrisy.

True obedience is from a heart that is truly changed by the love of God shed abroad in that heart, by the Holy Spirit. That's the law of God, not some written legal code.

 

[Mitspa]

Obeying the moral law is not Works Based Salvationism. Why? Well, because one is already saved by repenting of their sins and accepting Jesus (Which is a free gift); And then from there....Christ does the good work within the true believer. Holiness and fruitful works is not done for salvation. They are just the proof that you have been saved and that God lives within you. Sort of like how waves in an ocean are usually proof that there is wind blowing upon the waters. Waves are just the byproduct of wind hitting water. In other words, you cannot have waves unless there is wind and or some kind of object in the water disturbing it.

Well if your obedience is an outward obedience to the legal code, its not true obedience.If your obedience is faith working by love, it is true obedience.

Ro 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Are any of you guys really even interested in seeing and walking in the truth, or are you so content with being in the flesh that you are willing to reject the Word of God?

 

[Jason0047]

When I have said any of that? In fact what I have taught is true obedience by the Spirit...Through faith and love.

Legalism is not obedience, its the flesh trying to justify itself through the written code of the law. Its and outward appearance of obedience, it hypocrisy.

True obedience is from a heart that is truly changed by the love of God shed abroad in that heart, by the Holy Spirit. That's the law of God, not some written legal code.

First, please take note that there were three options. (a) (b) and (c). Second, I am merely asking a question about what you believe. Which is different than an accusation or saying what you believe. In the question I was asking if you do not believe the moral law does not apply in obeying the Lord from the heart (Because the law is written in one's heart). For you have to understand that there are other self proclaiming Christians I have ran into who are against Works Salvationism just like I am. However, the difference between us is that they believe they can abide in unrepentant sins (Such as hate, lust, thefl, lying) and still be saved because they believe all future sin is forgiven them. So if you are for upholding the moral law, then you need to make that fact clear here and not lead people to think they have a license to sin.

 

[Mitspa]

Romans 7 is talking about Paul's struggle with the Law as a Jew. Romans 8:1 is the solution. There is no Condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK after the Spirit. Again, Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin. But if Paul was saying this as a Christian, then he would be contradicting himself because just a few verses later in Romans 8:2 he says Christ Jesus has made him free from the law of sin and death. So which is it? Is Paul sold under sin? Or is Paul made free from the law of sin and death? You cannot have it both ways in being a Christian. It is either one or the other.

What are you taking about? Its not that complicated!

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

 

[Mitspa]

First, please take note that there were three options. (a) (b) and (c). Second, I am merely asking a question about what you believe. Which is different than an accusation or saying what you believe. In the question I was asking if you do not believe the moral law does not apply in obeying the Lord from the heart (Because the law is written in one's heart). For you have to understand that there are other self proclaiming Christians I have ran into who are against Works Salvationism just like I am. However, the difference between us is that they believe they can abide in unrepentant sins (Such as hate, lust, thefl, lying) and still be saved because they believe all future sin is forgiven them.

Look I don't limit the truth to your options...and I have never suggested anything but true obedience to God, not this fake stuff that comes from those who claim to keep the written code of the law.

Its the legalist who are in sin and hate.... For the strength of sin is the law.

 

[Jason0047]

What are you taking about? Its not that complicated!

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Yes, Paul is going back and forth and he is trying to convince those Christians who know the Law or who are still caught up in it (i.e. the Law of Moses). Romans 7:1 says he is speaking to them that know the Law. Romans 7:5 says, "for when we were [PAST TENSE] in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the Law [WHICH AGAIN IS IN THE PAST], did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto deeath.

 

[Mitspa]

Where does this "moral" ability come from? It cant come from mans ability to keep the law! Its must come from the Spirit of God in the heart of a believer. And that obedience is simplified in the word love.

So its not "thou shalt not steal" its thou shall love as I have loved you...Jesus