3 View Points.

[prove-all]

“the last day, that great day of the feast”

“The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the feast of tabernacles for seven days unto the Lord. …
[O]n the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you … it is a [day of] solemn assembly;
and ye shall do no servile work therein” (Leviticus 23:34, 36).

This eighth day, technically a separate feast, is called “the last day, that great day of the feast”
(John 7:37).

Notice what Jesus preached about on that day: “If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. …
[O]ut of his belly [innermost being] shall flow rivers of living water.

This was Jesus’s sermon giving the meaning of the Last Great Day!

Now turn to Revelation 20. After the Millennium, what happens? A resurrection!
The dead stand before God. This couldn’t include true Christians today, as they
will appear before the judgment seat when Christ returns,.

It couldn’t refer to those converted during the Millennium.
They would have already inherited the Kingdom during the Millennium,
after living out a normal lifespan.

Those in this resurrection must be those who died in ignorance in past ages!
They are not brought to life until after the Millennium (Revelation 20:5).

the books are opened, one being the word of God, those who never got to hear the only name.

 

[phil112]

Well, your unloving personal commentary about my character aside,................

It has not as much to do with your character as it does with your desire to go somewhere besides the bible for bible understanding. You think, believe, and try to tell us, that another man has a better take on the bible than we do. That is a private interpretation. My bible says that isn't okay. You simply show your ignorance about how God works. He doesn't want, need, nor ask, you to go to man. He may guide you to another man of God, but He will never send you to someone that has cute phrases that tickle your ears. You are so lacking in what it takes. Sad part is you don't see that.

 

[phil112]

............................Anyways, if you want to truly challenge your belief on this topic, check out this link here....................

Just now finished reading your reply. I pointed out in my last response to you about desiring man's opinion above God's, and sure enough, you post a link to another man's opinion. You're treading dangerous water. You can link me to man, but you never link me to God. You better figure it out friend.

 

[ChristInUs]

opens with ACDC, gives a three point sermon for 20 minutes on how to make yourself better, throws the word Jesus in and feel better about what we did Saturday night. That pretty much sums up the modern Church.

 

[maxwel]

There seem to be 3 view points pertaining to those who do not believe in Jesus Christ and even those who believe in Jesus Christ yet do not follow Him.
　


1[SUP]st[/SUP]. Annihilation. Our Father will cause those, who do not believe and refuse to follow Jesus Christ, to no longer exist. They will perish.


2[SUP]nd[/SUP]. Eternal Torment. Our Father will send those, who do not believe and refuse to follow Jesus Christ, to a place where they will be tortured and punished for all eternity.


3[SUP]rd[/SUP]. Christian Universalism. Our Father will show those, who do not believe and refuse to follow Jesus Christ, His Love and they will then understand and all men then will confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
　


In our English translated bible there seem to be scriptures backing up all 3 view points.


Which view point do you have and why?

Annihilationism:

Where in the English language, does "perish" or "destroy" EVER mean to cause matter to cease to exist?

Where is "destroy" EVER used that way?

 

[Jason0047]

Just now finished reading your reply. I pointed out in my last response to you about desiring man's opinion above God's, and sure enough, you post a link to another man's opinion. You're treading dangerous water. You can link me to man, but you never link me to God. You better figure it out friend.

Please tell me what Scripture verses they posted that you disagreed with. There are many of them, so I am not expecting you to go over them all. Just take a small amount and start slow.

 

[Jason0047]

Annihilationism:

Where in the English language, does "perish" or "destroy" EVER mean to cause matter to cease to exist?

Where is "destroy" EVER used that way?

Well, the Bible says the wicked will be turned into ash.

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts. (Malachi 4:1-3).

 

[Jason0047]

It has not as much to do with your character as it does with your desire to go somewhere besides the bible for bible understanding. You think, believe, and try to tell us, that another man has a better take on the bible than we do. That is a private interpretation. My bible says that isn't okay. You simply show your ignorance about how God works. He doesn't want, need, nor ask, you to go to man. He may guide you to another man of God, but He will never send you to someone that has cute phrases that tickle your ears. You are so lacking in what it takes. Sad part is you don't see that.

Your opinion is not the standard of God's Word. If you want to prove that you are right, you have got to be willing to discuss the Scriptures instead of insulting me. Can I expect you to discuss the Scriptures? Well, I am hoping.

 

[MultilingualMessenger]

I believe that such an answer is ignoring the problem, though. Can you really explain how God is good and loving and yet also explain how He can punish someone for a finite amount of crimes done against Him?

It's the consequence for rejecting God's plan of salvation. Not just for sins, because even the saved sin sometimes. God doesn't force Himself on people, so if someone rejects Him, they will spend eternity away from Him. He is good because He does not let unrighteousness enter Heaven. How would Heaven be our reward if He allowed unrighteousness there? It would be no better than Earth. He makes sure the place He prepares for each of us is good, and that is loving. He is also loving because He allows people to choose how they will spend their eternal life. No one is forced, whether they accept salvation and choose Heaven, or reject salvation and choose Hell. Whether they regret their choice of Hell (and they will regret that choice) is different than them being forced. In short, God keeps Heaven good and lets people choose to go there or not.

 

[Jason0047]

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:12-15)

I don't see any annihilation here.

That's because the annihilation does not take place until they are thrown into the Lake of Fire (Which is the Second Death). In fact, why call the Lake of Fire the Second Death? Well, because it is related to the First Death.

 

[Tintin]

There seem to be 3 view points pertaining to those who do not believe in Jesus Christ and even those who believe in Jesus Christ yet do not follow Him.
　


1[SUP]st[/SUP]. Annihilation. Our Father will cause those, who do not believe and refuse to follow Jesus Christ, to no longer exist. They will perish.


2[SUP]nd[/SUP]. Eternal Torment. Our Father will send those, who do not believe and refuse to follow Jesus Christ, to a place where they will be tortured and punished for all eternity.


3[SUP]rd[/SUP]. Christian Universalism. Our Father will show those, who do not believe and refuse to follow Jesus Christ, His Love and they will then understand and all men then will confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
　


In our English translated bible there seem to be scriptures backing up all 3 view points.


Which view point do you have and why?

Universalism isn't biblical in the least. Everyone confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour is just confessing the reality that He is, it's not believing that He's THEIR Lord and Saviour.

 

[Jason0047]

It's the consequence for rejecting God's plan of salvation. Not just for sins, because even the saved sin sometimes. God doesn't force Himself on people, so if someone rejects Him, they will spend eternity away from Him. He is good because He does not let unrighteousness enter Heaven. How would Heaven be our reward if He allowed unrighteousness there? It would be no better than Earth. He makes sure the place He prepares for each of us is good, and that is loving. He is also loving because He allows people to choose how they will spend their eternal life. No one is forced, whether they accept salvation and choose Heaven, or reject salvation and choose Hell. Whether they regret their choice of Hell (and they will regret that choice) is different than them being forced. In short, God keeps Heaven good and lets people choose to go there or not.

Again, I am not in disagreement with Heaven (and or God's Kingdom on the New Earth) and how it is good for those who make the right choice in this life regarding Him. I am saying that focusing on that instead of explaining the moral problem of Eternal Concious Torment is not really resolving the problem of how God can be loving and yet torture people for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes.

 

[Jason0047]

opens with ACDC, gives a three point sermon for 20 minutes on how to make yourself better, throws the word Jesus in and feel better about what we did Saturday night. That pretty much sums up the modern Church.

I am not a supporter of the Modern Church. I don't listen to ACDC anymore since being a believer. I also prefer longer sermons then short ones in addition to free Bible studies in home groups because the sheep need to be fed properly. I don't believe in a health and wealth gospel, either. For all who live Godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution for their faith.

 

[maxwel]

Well, the Bible says the wicked will be turned into ash.

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts. (Malachi 4:1-3).

I said the word "destroy" is never used to mean "matter ceases to exist"...
the word "DESTROY" IS NOT EVEN IN THIS PASSAGE.

This passage does not answer the statement I made, and therefore it's irrelevant to my statement.

 

[phil112]

Your opinion is not the standard of God's Word. If you want to prove that you are right, you have got to be willing to discuss the Scriptures instead of insulting me. Can I expect you to discuss the Scriptures? Well, I am hoping.

My "opinion" is irrelevant. What matters is God's word. The word you so cavalierly dismiss. I always bring scripture and you resort to trying to discredit me.

Son, you are in a world of hurt and it is only gonna get worse. Submit to His word or burn. Killing the messenger isn't gonna get you brownie points on that day.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day

 

[phil112]

Please tell me what Scripture verses they posted that you disagreed with................ .

You don't post scripture. You post your, and other people's. opinions, and then pervert scripture to validate your distorted viewpoint. Want me to bring scripture? How about the ones that talk about "teachers with itching ears"...want me to go back and point out all the times I have questioned your willingness to talk?
Want me to bring up the threads that you talked more than anyone? You are simply full of yourself.

Grow up spiritually or die. You need help. Not mine, but Christ's.

 

[Jason0047]

I said the word "destroy" is never used to mean "matter ceases to exist"...
the word "DESTROY" IS NOT EVEN IN THIS PASSAGE.

This passage does not answer the statement I made, and therefore it's irrelevant to my statement.

It's not irrelevant because Scripture all breathes together in harmony. One can be destroyed both body and soul in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire) as Jesus says in Matthew 10:28 which then naturally results in the by-product of ashes (Which is what one sees when somebody destroys something in their own fire place within their own home).

 

[Jason0047]

You don't post scripture. You post your, and other people's. opinions, and then pervert scripture to validate your distorted viewpoint. Want me to bring scripture? How about the ones that talk about "teachers with itching ears"...want me to go back and point out all the times I have questioned your willingness to talk?
Want me to bring up the threads that you talked more than anyone? You are simply full of yourself.

Grow up spiritually or die. You need help. Not mine, but Christ's.

Please tell me what words you said to me line up with the fruits of the Spirit in Galatians 5? Do you believe a believer should have the fruits of the Spirit or is that optional for a believer? Or are you more interested in slandering me? Or are you trying to convince me of the truth with God's Word by discussing it in a loving and respectful way?

 

[Jason0047]

Okay, what do folks make of these verses?

"Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body..." (Matthew 10:28)
"There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy…" (James 4:12)
"...who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Tim 1:10)

• Philippians 3:19-Whose end is destruction.
• 2 Thessalonians 1:9-Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction.
• Hebrews 10:39-But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition. (Greek: destruction)

Another important point. In John 3:16, the word "perish" in the Greek is "apollumi." It is correctly translated many other times as "destroy" throughout the New Testament. Therefore, let's correctly understand John 3:16 as follows:

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish (Gk: apollumi; be destroyed), but have everlasting life (i.e. immortality-knowing God).

​

Therefore, the proper biblical question is not, "Where will you be in eternity?" but "Will you have an eternity?"

Source:
http://www.jewishnotgreek.com

 

[Jason0047]

Also, if what folks here believe is good and true, they should have no trouble explaining the good justice or the morality behind Eternal Concious Torment (ECT). But.... I know that will never happen, though. I know. For when I believed in ECT, I tried many times in it being moral and good (And it just didn't work). I just said something like .... "Only God knows about such things, etc."