3 View Points.

[Alextor]

What was before man? We know that God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ were before man. We also know that the angels were created before man. How many angels were in heaven before man? Knowing that our Father has always existed there could be millions upon millions perhaps billions upon billions of angels as well as other creatures He has created.


Man is lower than the angels. In fact, we are told in Hebrews, that our Lord’s flesh and blood body was created a little lower than the angels. So how much lower are we? A lot I would say.


The angels lived and dwelt in heaven with our Father and His Son. We are even told in Job that they would come up before our Father to present.


These angels, living and dwelling with our Father, were deceived by an arch angel named Lucifer, satan or the devil, which ever you want to call him. So many of these angels, who had their existence in heaven with the Father, were deceived and 1/3 of them followed Lucifer and turned their backs on God our Father.


Now man has only known an existence within this world. And this world belongs to satan. We know this because when Jesus was tempted by the devil, the devil said “bow down and worship me and all these cities I will give you because they are mine to give.”


If man’s only existence has been in this world, and he was raised in it, it being evil, and unlike the angels, never has seen God the Father, never been in heaven, has know idea what it is like to stand in the presence of the Father and feel his love, and being made lower than the angels, how can he possibly understand enough to make the right choice?


If the devil was able to deceive 1/3 of the angels in heaven imagine how easy it is to deceive man. Man is not capable enough to make the right choice. We need someone to make that choice for us.


Jesus said “I did not come to condemn the world but to save the world”. And that is what he did. Jesus understands that we do not understand. Jesus our Lord made the choice. Let’s not elevate man, in the fallen state we are in, higher than we actually are.


Yes our Father has given some more understanding than others. We understand what Jesus did for us, we believe. We did not come to this understanding on our own, it is a gift from our Father.


Jesus said He will lose nothing that the Father has given Him. And what did the Father give Him? Everything. Jesus reconciles the world to the Father. And those of us who understand …. believe…. have become ministers of reconciliation.
　
　
　

 

[prove-all]

God does punish but He punishes in love and mercy. His punishment is meted out to bring about repentance from sin.

His punishment will be sent out in full force fury in comming tribulations,

a plain to bring about mass repentence to God, alas but some will still not listen,

and still harden there hearts.




funny how non religious people use gods name in vain all day,

and not believe in a God.

but when there time comes up, he is the first they cry out to,

and expects him to answer.

 

[MultilingualMessenger]

So, I think we all agree this scripture is true...

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Now, people who lived in Asia or South America 4000 years ago, made their bed they can lie in it? They never even heard the name. If this is your misrepresentation of a loving God, shame on you.

Really? Shame on me? When God reveals Himself to all man?

"Romans 1:20 - For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

Your excuse for a rebuttal has long been addressed by God Himself, Whom if you so seek to represent well, should probably listen to so you'd at least know what He's already said.

Like I said before, our loving God always informs. Always.​

 

[Jason0047]

Really? Shame on me? When God reveals Himself to all man?

"Romans 1:20 - For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

Your excuse for a rebuttal has long been addressed by God Himself, Whom if you so seek to represent well, should probably listen to so you'd at least know what He's already said.

Like I said before, our loving God always informs. Always.​

I don't think we should guilt trip each other or make this personal or anything. One will do a study on the Word of God on this matter objectively or they will not do the study. But God's Word says, study to show yourself approved unto Him (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV). That's what it really comes down to. Will one be a good Berean and keep an open mind and seek the Scriptures to see whether those things be so or not? (Acts 17:11).

 

[MarcR]

Gotta disagree here...

Lev 26:18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

God does punish but He punishes in love and mercy. His punishment is meted out to bring about repentance from sin.

There are some semantic issues here.


People (legitimately)use words differently. Words have multiple meanings and multiple shades of meaning.

AS I AM USING THE WORDS INVOLVED:

God's chastening of believers is correction NOT punishment.

Lev 26:18, and Isa 13:11 are not addressed to God's faithful. They are addressed to those whom God has accused of idolatry and spiritual adultery.

 

[Jason0047]

While there is semantics involved, there is also a repeated context (that one cannot ignore), though.

In fact, I believe why most hold to ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) is because they do not understand that the word "forever" does not always mean "forever" in the Bible.

Take Revelation 14:11 KJV as an example.
Should the English words "for ever" (or "forever") be read literally meaning an endless state?

Well, I heard a pastor once say that the best way to interpret the Bible is to let the Bible do the interpreting for you. What I am I talking about? Well, the Bible tells us that the phrase "smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever" is a metaphorical phrase from Isaiah 34:10 KJV which says that the smoke of Edom went up forever and ever. Yet is the city of Edom burning today? No, of course not. So we then realize that this phrase is speaking metaphorically.

In other words, the word "forever" (and it's related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can have a temporal sense. For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?

• In Gen.13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.

• The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Ex.12:24; 27:21; 28:43).

• Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezek.16:53-55).

• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer.30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jer.30:17).

• The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic.1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez.16:53).

• Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zeph.2:9, Jer.25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer.49:6).

• An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deut.23:3):

• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Hab.3 3:6).

• The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Ex.40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Heb.7:14-18).

• Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.

• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Heb. 4:8,9).

• The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Lev.24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Cor. 3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

• The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.
Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb. 8:6-13).

• God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer.25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ez.29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jer.49:39).

• "Moab is destroyed" (Jer.48:4, 42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer.48:47).

• Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa.32:13-15).

• The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), until -- his death.

• “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used of a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in II Cor.4:18 where it is contrasted with “temporal” and in Philemon 15 where it is contrasted with “for a while.”


Source Used:
http://www.apttoteach.org/Theology/E...f/911_Hell.pdf

 

[john832]

Really? Shame on me? When God reveals Himself to all man?

"Romans 1:20 - For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

Your excuse for a rebuttal has long been addressed by God Himself, Whom if you so seek to represent well, should probably listen to so you'd at least know what He's already said.

Like I said before, our loving God always informs. Always.​

The idea that all people are being judged right now is the "Great Controversy" doctrine of the SDAs and is incorrect. There is coming a time of judgment for those who have not been given an opportunity now...

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

But since you chose the book of Romans, let's investigate what is said there...

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

It says here that blindness has occurred to Israel but what is the outcome?

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

And how does that work?

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

When? We just read it in Revelation 20...

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The books (of the Bible) are opened to them and then they are judged. How does this happen?

Eze 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
Eze 37:2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
Eze 37:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
Eze 37:4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
Eze 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
Eze 37:6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 37:7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
Eze 37:8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
Eze 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
Eze 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
Eze 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

A physical resurrection to human life, given the Spirit of God and then judged by the same standard the church is judged by today; the Bible.

 

[MultilingualMessenger]

Well, I used to believe in Eternal Concious Torment for a long while. Then I was on the fence (Believing Eternal Hell and Conditional Immortality as both being possibilities). I didn't want to just make assumptions. So I prayed and studied on the topic for a long while from an objective standpoint of what the Bible says versus what the majority of churches say.

You can check out this thread here on how I was trying to defend both views
(When I used to believe both as a possibility):

ECT How can God be loving and send then someone to Hell? - Theology Online | Christian Forums & More

In fact, I did a lot of heavy research on trying to justify Eternal Torment and I did not really find an answer that was truly satisfying.

No answer has to satisfy you to be true. That seems to be your thing. You need to be satisfied, or it wasn't explained well, or it must not be true.

Man's arrogance.

We both don't like it. Agreed. Therein lies the problem. For why should you hate something that the Bible teaches to be good and true? Why can't you explain it? Does not the Spirit lead us into all truth? Don't you think some believer out there would have figured it out by now and given us an explanation as to why Hell is loving, fair, just, and good? Can Eternal Torment be made into a parable? I say thee nay. All false theologies cannot be made into a parable (or real world example). Yet, Jesus illustrated spiritual truth all the time with real world examples.

No, the problem is not that either of us doesn't like Hell. The problem is that you don't like Hell so you want to change it up to make it not seem so bad. Why are you so invested in making Hell seem unfair if you, as a believer, are not even going to be there? What is your need for doing so? What are you trying to prove? I'm curious. That's what perplexes me in this.

If you could do as all a favor and show us where the Bible says that Hell or anything affiliated with it is good? It doesn't have to be a good thing or a desirable place to be for it to be true that people go there for eternity. And I have explained that; you really just don't like it. You want to make the Word suit your likes and dislikes, and that's your problem. I am a believer and I have given you an explanation as to why Hell is loving, fair, and just (see previous responses). It's not good because it's not for those who are good. The only good is in its existence so that Heaven is not infiltrated with wickedness (which I've stated before). That's why Satan was kicked out of Heaven. Hell was made for him, but people choose to go there sometimes. This is not difficult to grasp. It's eternal because you're eternal and you choose your eternity. Period, the end.

Again, this is an avoidance of the problem. You are doing a slight of hand magic trick of trying to divert my attention elsewhere while the big elephant still is in the room for all to see.

Nope. You constantly divert your own attention, regardless of what I've (or any other believer, apparently) said back to Hell being eternally unfair. It's not that I haven't explained, it's that you haven't listened.

I never said Hell (Which is a real place) and the Lake of Fire which will destroy a person both body and soul is not unavoidable. That is not what we are talking about. We are talking about whether or not Eternal Torture in flames for a finite amount of crimes done against God is fair and just.

Again, man's arrogance. You think you have a place to morally evaluate God. Yet you haven't morally evaluated how Eternal Paradise in Heaven for a finite amount of good deeds done for God is fair and just. I called your bluff and you haven't addressed it.

No, I believe there is a Hell (Torments) but I don't believe it is a torture chamber where people burn in flames. The richman was tormented by the heat of the flame that was in front of him that was in the great gulf fixed between him and Abraham. For how can a man carry on a normal conversion if he is held down in a campfire? Why didn't the richman ask for buckets of water instead of just a little water to cool his tongue? Does that sound like a man who is engulfed in flame? I say thee nay.

People can and actually will speak from the flames. Philippians 2: 9-11 - Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Man, that Bible will getcha.

The rich man begging for water to simply cool his tongue, shows how desperate he was for any little relief. Kinda how the poor beg for pocket change and savor water by the cap-fulls. It's to show how agonizing the fire was.

I also believe God will destroy and punish everyone fairly in the Lake of Fire for the crimes they have done. They will not suffer any longer than what the crime calls for. For God is good and fair in His judgments.

For did not Jesus say, I have come to give you life and that you can have it more abundantly? Why would Jesus give life and give it more abundantly unto the wicked, too? That doesn't make any sense. 1 Timothy 6:16 says Jesus alone has immortality. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life. So one has eternal life because of Jesus Christ. Yes, there will be a resurrection of the damned. But they will be destroyed both body and soul in Gehenna, i.e. the Lake of Fire as Jesus had said in Matthew 10:28. Jesus will not be abiding or living in the wicked so as to give them life in the Lake of Fire for all eternity. For life can only be found in the Son (1 John 5:12); And Jesus alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16).

Yes, but our "fairly" and God's "fairly" are not necessarily the same thing. So you can't go by what your idea of fair is. Stop trying to water down God and kumbaya and hold hands with the damned. Jesus gives life and more abundantly to believers. Eternal death is not life, and more abudantly does not refer to the amount of time, but to the quality of that life. Those in Hell don't have abundant life, they have eternal existence; there is a difference. Why would there not be a difference, when people who were unrighteous were already Hell-bound before Jesus came? Telling us we have eternal existence after we already had eternal existence would mean nothing; hence, eternal abundant life is much different.

This isn't tough, man.

When we shut off our brains about what is good and right we fall prey to being victims. Sort of like when Jim Jone's congregation had shut off their brains in what they knew to be good and right whereby they all killed themselves.

Exactly. We would be victims of ourselves, going our own way, and bearing the punishment for our sins, if it were not for Jesus who bore it in our place.

This has already been addressed Biblically. Isaiah 53:6 - We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Anyone who goes to Hell is a victim of his or her own self.

It's not what I think. It's what Scripture teaches. Remember, I was on the fence and believed both Eternal Torment and Conditional Immortality as both being true. I did a deep study on the matter and researched both sides objectively looking at Scripture. If you don't want to see it, that is your choice. But it would not be a Scriptural one.

I'm afraid it's what you think bro. Scripture doesn't teach that God is immoral for creating Hell, or that the torment is immoral. People who don't like Hell have certainly challenged God's morality and used Scripture to ease their own discomfort with Hell though. "I don't like it so it can't be moral". Fallacious and self-serving thinking.

Sin does have consequences and I am totally NOT side stepping or excusing fair punishment or justice at all. No way. That would be crazy. Fair justice and punishment will be carried out. For how did God tell his people (the Israelites) to carry out justice? Was justice quick and swift? Or did God tell his people to torture others and keep them alive and torture them some more? Remember, an eye for an eye? But if you believe in Eternal Torment it would not be an eye for an eye (Which is fair justice). It would be... and endless supply of eyes taken for one eye instead.

You confuse what God allows us to do with what God is allowed to do. Of course we are not allowed to eternally torture someone. It's not only impossible for us, but it's also not our place. God also told us that we should not kill, yet He killed. Why? Because as the author of life, He has every right to do so or not as He judges right and fair.

Get that? As He judges right and fair, not you. It's an eye for an eye for us, but how God perceives a person's rejection of His plan of salvation verses the very rejection itself may very well be an eye for an eye. It's just not for you to decide.

Jesus did not suffer for all eternity in flames for our our sins. That should be another clue that God fairly judges sin.

Jesus didn't sin. He didn't deserve to suffer for all eternity, nor was it necessary for Him to suffer for all eternity for us to be able to have abundant life eternally.

That was really a weak argument there.

Imagine that nice old lady accross the street who believed in some other religion roasting alive as you dance along the golden streets in Heaven. How could you be truly comforted at such a thought?

You tried to work some pathos on me, but what makes you fail is Scripture itself. That has already been addressed, yet people raise the pathetic question time and time again, "what about the people who believe in other religions and still are a good person?":

1 Corinthians 8:5-6 - For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Galatians 1:6-10 - I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

God has been clear that He is the only One.

There is not an innocent one under the sun. No, I do not pity the hypothetical old lady in your woefully simple, overused, and already long-been refuted example.

We're not even supposed to pity them.

Deuteronomy 13:6-7 - “If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him.

I made the illustration because Jesus made the same type of illustrations or real world examples. Unless you have no moral compass of what is good and right, you would not be happy to see your family tortured alive for the rest of their lives for breaking a minor law in some other country. That is not fair justice. Well, we can agree on the mercy part, but we do not agree on the justice part. I really don't see how man could top your version of God torturing people for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes. Sorry, no man has ever done that.

1. You are gong by your idea of a moral compass, yet again.
2. I would not be happy to see my family tortured alive, but I wouldn't see them tortured in Hell if I was in Heaven, and there is no grief in Heaven. I would not grieve them, and even now I don't grieve at the idea, because I would know that it was their choice for themselves and there is no grief in Heaven. I'm not worried.
3. Nobody goes to Hell for anything "minor". People go to Hell for rejecting God, which is actually pretty major. Seriously. That was covered in one Commandment, not to mention other several times in Scripture.

I made the point that God always notifies. If you can't see how notification is better than blindsiding, I don't know what else to tell you. Also, (most) men don't willingly take the heat in someone else's place. It's pretty clear who's more merciful and just.

I realize all too well that Jesus was innocent and did not deserve any kind of punishment. But we also have to realize that it pleased God the Father to crush the Son, too (Isaiah 53:10). For it was by doing so that God the Father could be reconciled back to mankind.

Exactly. It pleased Him to reconcile. It pleased Him for the end, not the means.

I have explained, here and earlier. If this is not enough, it's because you simply reject it. You want to water down Scripture and make eternity fit your liking, and judge God Himself. You don't like it, so you don't believe it. You're still judging by your ways and not God's ways. His ways are not our ways. Isaiah 55:8 - "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.

We don't even have God's thoughts in order to fully understand God's ways; neither you nor I do. But the difference is that I accept His words, and welcome His thoughts and ways where you seem not to in places, specifically regarding justice and eternity.

I'm going to pray for your higher understanding of God's justice, fairness, and morality.

But until then, I gotta go. I am not to speak any further when the person is not listening. My Father in Heaven wouldn't approve of it. Matthew 10:14 - If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet.

 

[Jason0047]

Dear John 832:

Well, if you believe in soul sleep, I do not believe that is a Biblical teaching. The Bible talks many times about folks in the afterlife and makes references to such places as being very real.

Torments (Hell) is not a torture chamber where people are being burned by fire. It is more like a holding cell or prison until the Judgment. Sort of like how we will put someone in prison in certain cases before a trial will begin. So Judgment or punishment has not begun yet if they are in Torments. The punishment will be a wicked person being destroyed in the Lake of Fire both body and soul (This will also include the devil, and his minions being destroyed, as well).

 

[MultilingualMessenger]

The idea that all people are being judged right now is the "Great Controversy" doctrine of the SDAs and is incorrect. There is coming a time of judgment for those who have not been given an opportunity now...

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

But since you chose the book of Romans, let's investigate what is said there...

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

It says here that blindness has occurred to Israel but what is the outcome?

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

And how does that work?

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

When? We just read it in Revelation 20...

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The books (of the Bible) are opened to them and then they are judged. How does this happen?

Eze 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
Eze 37:2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
Eze 37:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
Eze 37:4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
Eze 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
Eze 37:6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 37:7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
Eze 37:8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
Eze 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
Eze 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
Eze 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

A physical resurrection to human life, given the Spirit of God and then judged by the same standard the church is judged by today; the Bible.

Not sure how this refutes the fact that God will judge those who reject Him, and that He makes Himself known to all, even those who we think may never know Him (what I said in my post, that you responded to). No one has an excuse. God made it that way.

If that is unloving, maybe you should take it up with God? I have said nothing that Scripture hasn't already addressed. Talk to Him about it.

 

[prove-all]

I read "house of Israel" a prophecy of the church and all in the church will be saved. Those outside the church, body of Christ will be lost.

so what bible verse labels Isreal as the new church body[woman],

I thought [Isreal] was a nation of physical decendents of his sons, people good and bad.


and are told what will happen to these lads in the latter days.


most of the whole bible tells use about Isreal, or nations it comes in contact with.

 

[john832]

Dear John 832:

Well, if you believe in soul sleep, I do not believe that is a Biblical teaching. The Bible talks many times about folks in the afterlife and makes references to such places as being very real.

Torments (Hell) is not a torture chamber where people are being burned by fire. It is more like a holding cell or prison until the Judgment. Sort of like how we will put someone in prison in certain cases before a trial will begin. So Judgment or punishment has not begun yet if they are in Torments. The punishment will be a wicked person being destroyed in the Lake of Fire both body and soul (This will also include the devil, and his minions being destroyed, as well).

Uh, OK...

Mat 9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

Luk 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

1Co 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

 

[john832]

Not sure how this refutes the fact that God will judge those who reject Him, and that He makes Himself known to all, even those who we think may never know Him (what I said in my post, that you responded to). No one has an excuse. God made it that way.

If that is unloving, maybe you should take it up with God? I have said nothing that Scripture hasn't already addressed. Talk to Him about it.

He will judge them, but not now. He will judge them when they have full knowledge of what life is, what they are, who God is, Who Christ is and what their purpose is in life.

God is not calling everyone right now. He has a plan and that plan spans 7000 years. He see things much differently than we do and has the patience to not only have an early harvest but a latter harvest.

 

[MultilingualMessenger]

He will judge them, but not now. He will judge them when they have full knowledge of what life is, what they are, who God is, Who Christ is and what their purpose is in life.

God is not calling everyone right now. He has a plan and that plan spans 7000 years. He see things much differently than we do and has the patience to not only have an early harvest but a latter harvest.

Who said now?

Still not seeing how God's plan for time refutes that His rejectors will be judged, which is what I said, and what Scripture says. They will be ultimately judged when they face the ultimate judge. Of course.

 

[MultilingualMessenger]

I made the point that God always notifies. If you can't see how notification is better than blindsiding, I don't know what else to tell you. Also, (most) men don't willingly take the heat in someone else's place. It's pretty clear who's more merciful and just.

Not to mention that God notifies and then gives the chance to repent without the due consequence. Repent and be saved. No punishment faced if they just change their ways. Man certainly does not do that in dealing with men who have already committed the crime. They don't get a "if you promise to change, you won't have any consequence for what you've already done" option in the matter. God's mercy greatly overwhelms our capacity for it.

 

[john832]

Who said now?

Still not seeing how God's plan for time refutes that His rejectors will be judged, which is what I said, and what Scripture says. They will be ultimately judged when they face the ultimate judge. Of course.

Rejectors will be judged but that can only happen when they in full knowledge reject Christ. Anyone born prior to Christ's birth could not reject Him.

A few were called prior to 27AD, a very few, but the vast majority of mankind has simply not been judged yet.

 

[john832]

Not to mention that God notifies and then gives the chance to repent without the due consequence. Repent and be saved. No punishment faced if they just change their ways. Man certainly does not do that in dealing with men who have already committed the crime. They don't get a "if you promise to change, you won't have any consequence for what you've already done" option in the matter. God's mercy greatly overwhelms our capacity for it.

Oh now wait a minute, no one ever said that there were no consequences...

Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Now the only way that Nineveh can rise in judgment with those of Christ's time is if they come up together and that is what Rev 20:11-12 says.

But let me ask you a question,

They don't get a "if you promise to change, you won't have any consequence for what you've already done" option in the matter.

Do you? Will you suffer eternal death for what you have done? Or upon repentance is this applied to you?

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Or is this just for you but not for others?

 

[MultilingualMessenger]

Oh now wait a minute, no one ever said that there were no consequences...

Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Now the only way that Nineveh can rise in judgment with those of Christ's time is if they come up together and that is what Rev 20:11-12 says.

Rest assured that my post was not a response to what you said, but to an earlier post about man's justice being better than God's.

I know that nobody thinks that there are no consequences for sin. Everyone knows that there are consequences for sin. But what I actually said was that God always informs people of their sin and gives them a chance to repent and change their ways before doling out the consequence, which will be doled out if they don't repent. If they do repent, they have the chance to escape what would be the due punishment for their error (which would be eternal separation from God). Man does not allow that for others. Reread my post. It's not arguing that sin doesn't or shouldn't have consequences or that anyone said that. Sin should and does have consequences, and God is the only One who has given us a way out of that, therefore He is merciful beyond our capacity for mercy. I stated that pretty clearly, again, in response to man's justice being better than God's.

Do you? Will you suffer eternal death for what you have done? Or upon repentance is this applied to you?

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Or is this just for you but not for others?

Yes, I get that option (to repent and not suffer Hell) and we all do. But it's from God, not man. That's what I clearly stated before, in response to man's justice being greater than God's. It's not. And that's what you presented in Scripture, and it agrees with what I said. I never said we don't get the option to repent and not suffer the due consequence for our pre-repentant actions. I said that we don't get that option from man, but from God. Therefore, God's mercy exceeds ours. I'm sorry you misunderstood, but I never implied that I get to repent and nobody else does.

I think you refuse to see that you and I have only agreed here. I'm gonna leave it at that for you.

 

[john832]

Rest assured that my post was not a response to what you said, but to an earlier post about man's justice being better than God's.

I know that nobody thinks that there are no consequences for sin. Everyone knows that there are consequences for sin. But what I actually said was that God always informs people of their sin and gives them a chance to repent and change their ways before doling out the consequence, which will be doled out if they don't repent. If they do repent, they have the chance to escape what would be the due punishment for their error (which would be eternal separation from God). Man does not allow that for others. Reread my post. It's not arguing that sin doesn't or shouldn't have consequences or that anyone said that. Sin should and does have consequences, and God is the only One who has given us a way out of that, therefore He is merciful beyond our capacity for mercy. I stated that pretty clearly, again, in response to man's justice being better than God's.



Yes, I get that option (to repent and not suffer Hell) and we all do. But it's from God, not man. That's what I clearly stated before, in response to man's justice being greater than God's. It's not. And that's what you presented in Scripture, and it agrees with what I said. I never said we don't get the option to repent and not suffer the due consequence for our pre-repentant actions. I said that we don't get that option from man, but from God. Therefore, God's mercy exceeds ours. I'm sorry you misunderstood, but I never implied that I get to repent and nobody else does.

I think you refuse to see that you and I have only agreed here. I'm gonna leave it at that for you.

I think our disagreement may be about timing.

 

[Jason0047]

No answer has to satisfy you to be true. That seems to be your thing. You need to be satisfied, or it wasn't explained well, or it must not be true.

Man's arrogance.

*Reflects the mirror back at you*

Will any answer satisfy you in what I give with Scripture?
Are you not ignoring truth by not looking at both sides of the issue with Scripture on this topic?
Why are you so defensive in holding to a view that you cannot explain as being good and just?

No, the problem is not that either of us doesn't like Hell. The problem is that you don't like Hell so you want to change it up to make it not seem so bad.

So you think I just changed the Scriptures to fit my view? You are going to have to do better than that. You are going to have to actually show where I changed the Scriptures specifically in order for you to be correct. Just making the claim does not make it so. One needs the Word of God to back them up.

Why are you so invested in making Hell seem unfair if you, as a believer, are not even going to be there? What is your need for doing so? What are you trying to prove? I'm curious. That's what perplexes me in this.

Because there are testimonies of people who had reservations in coming to the Lord because they thought God was cruel in punishing people unfairly. However, when it was properly explained to them with lots of Scripture, they understood the Word and they received the seed of the Word into their heart and believed.

If you could do as all a favor and show us where the Bible says that Hell or anything affiliated with it is good? It doesn't have to be a good thing or a desirable place to be for it to be true that people go there for eternity. And I have explained that; you really just don't like it. You want to make the Word suit your likes and dislikes, and that's your problem. I am a believer and I have given you an explanation as to why Hell is loving, fair, and just (see previous responses). It's not good because it's not for those who are good. The only good is in its existence so that Heaven is not infiltrated with wickedness (which I've stated before). That's why Satan was kicked out of Heaven. Hell was made for him, but people choose to go there sometimes. This is not difficult to grasp. It's eternal because you're eternal and you choose your eternity. Period, the end.

God sends rain on the just and the unjust. God died for us while we were yet sinners. Jesus said to the Father, "forgive them for they not not what they are doing." God is not willing that any should PERISH but that all should come to repentance. God so loved the world. God is love. God is good. God is holy. God is just, fair, and right in His judgments. God's judgments can be explained by using real world examples. God is logical and orderly.

Since the beginning of sin there was only two possibilities for mankind: life as offered by Christ or death. It was not eternal life in heaven or eternal life in hell.

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

These verses above are referring to the second death and not the first death.

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

The second death is complete destruction of the wicked in the lake of fire as described in the verses below.

Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (γέεννα).

2 Thessalonians 1:8,9 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 4:1,3 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

Sodom and Gomorrha are set forth as examples of suffering eternal fire in Jude, but they were clearly destroyed.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

2 Peter 2:5,6 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Nope. You constantly divert your own attention, regardless of what I've (or any other believer, apparently) said back to Hell being eternally unfair. It's not that I haven't explained, it's that you haven't listened.

Where exactly did you explain how God torturing people in the Lake of Fire for all eternity as being, good, loving, fair, and just?

Is not God good, loving, fair, and just?

Again, man's arrogance. You think you have a place to morally evaluate God. Yet you haven't morally evaluated how Eternal Paradise in Heaven for a finite amount of good deeds done for God is fair and just. I called your bluff and you haven't addressed it.

Oh, good. Then we can all just turn our brains off and ignore our moral compasses and follow the next Jim Jones to our deaths. Sorry, I am not buying your ignoring of what is morally right. That to me is evil. You ignore what is good and right and you might as well forget about God because God is good and He is not evil.

People can and actually will speak from the flames. Philippians 2: 9-11 -Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Sorry, I must have missed the inserted words you tried to place into Philippians 2:9-11. There is nothing about how they are confessing out of the flames. You have to put that in there (with your imagination) in order for it to be true. Yes, they confess under the Earth. I said I believe in an actual Hell. But the Bible does not teach that it is a fiery torture chamber, though. The Lake of Fire is what has real flames. That is what the Richman had seen and felt from the great gulf fixed between him and Abraham. For Torments (Hell) sits atop of the Lake of Fire and will be cast (dropped down) into it after the Judgment is carried out. This is obvious from looking at various verses in Scripture. Hell is an island and the sea is the Lake of Fire.

Man, that Bible will getcha.

*Picks up mirror and reflects it back at you again*

The rich man begging for water to simply cool his tongue, shows how desperate he was for any little relief. Kinda how the poor beg for pocket change and savor water by the cap-fulls. It's to show how agonizing the fire was.

No, that doesn't make any sense. Not logical. Nobody. I mean nobody can carry on a normal conversation if they are held down in fire. When a person is held over fire, they scream. Do you think you can carry on a conversation with someone like that? If you do, then it would not be based on reality or anything.

Yes, but our "fairly" and God's "fairly" are not necessarily the same thing. So you can't go by what your idea of fair is. Stop trying to water down God and kumbaya and hold hands with the damned.

That is just a baseless accusation. Where did you see me watering down the Word of God? What verses do you think I am doing so? Do you want to discuss the Scriptures are just make baseless accusations? I mean, I get it. You believe it because that is what your church teaches. You did not come to this conclusion on your own reading within Scripture. So words like "forever" and place our modern understanding upon that word. See my recent post above on the word "forever."

Jesus gives life and more abundantly to believers. Eternal death is not life, and more abudantly does not refer to the amount of time, but to the quality of that life.

Nope. Jesus said, he that believes in me well never die. Eternal being tortured means they have life still. For why do you think they call the Lake of Fire the Second Death? Because it is related to the First Death. In other words, you are trying to make the Second Death unrelated to the First Death. Which would be wrong. For both deaths are related in the fact that they completely destroy one into being ashes.

I'm afraid it's what you think bro.

Please do not call me bro. I find it disrespectful if someone says that while they are in a strong heated disagreement with me about something. Brother.... yes. Bro... no. It's like saying .... dude.

Scripture doesn't teach that God is immoral for creating Hell, or that the torment is immoral.

Because Scripture does not teach Eternal Torment, that is why.

People who don't like Hell have certainly challenged God's morality and used Scripture to ease their own discomfort with Hell though. "I don't like it so it can't be moral". Fallacious and self-serving thinking.

You are not really explaining how it is good with that statement, though. And God is good.

You confuse what God allows us to do with what God is allowed to do. Of course we are not allowed to eternally torture someone. It's not only impossible for us, but it's also not our place. God also told us that we should not kill, yet He killed. Why? Because as the author of life, He has every right to do so or not as He judges right and fair.

Psalm 119:75
"I know, O LORD, that thy judgments are right, and that thou in faithfulness hast afflicted me."

Get that? As He judges right and fair, not you. It's an eye for an eye for us, but how God perceives a person's rejection of His plan of salvation verses the very rejection itself may very well be an eye for an eye. It's just not for you to decide.

1 Corinthians 6:2
"Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?"

Jesus didn't sin. He didn't deserve to suffer for all eternity, nor was it necessary for Him to suffer for all eternity for us to be able to have abundant life eternally.

Jesus died in our place. Death. That was the punishment or wages of sin. The punishment was not Eternal Concious Torture physically and or spiritually.

You tried to work some pathos on me, but what makes you fail is Scripture itself. That has already been addressed, yet people raise the pathetic question time and time again, "what about the people who believe in other religions and still are a good person?":

1 Corinthians 8:5-6 - For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Galatians 1:6-10 - I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

So you believe I am teaching another gospel because I believe the Lake of Fire is the Second Death like it states?

As for other people in other religions being nice: Yes, they can be nice to you and many other people. The problem is that they have not been nice to God and reconciled their sin with Him. But that still does not change the idea of you rejoicing in heaven while you remembered this person doing nice to you while they burn in agonizing pain for all eternity. What if it was an unbelieving family member you loved intensely? Can you truly be comforted in Heaven knowing they are suffering extreme amounts of torture for all time? If you do, then I would have to question your lack of love and goodness then.

God has been clear that He is the only One.

There is not an innocent one under the sun. No, I do not pity the hypothetical old lady in your woefully simple, overused, and already long-been refuted example.

We're not even supposed to pity them.

Deuteronomy 13:6-7 - “If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him.

Yes, we are told this so as not to be led astray by them. That does not mean Jesus does not want us to do good unto our enemies and to pray and love them, though.

1. You are gong by your idea of a moral compass, yet again.

See, that is what is the problem with Christianity today. They think morality is not consistent with God and His Word. That is just absolute crazy none sense. How in the world do you know the good guys from the bad guys when you turn on the news or watch a movie? You know the good guys from the bad guys by what they do. So yes, if you watch a movie and you see a man torture people for the rest of their lives for them breaking a small little law, then you know that such a person is a bad guy and not a good guy. It's morality 101. How can you not know about these basic things?

2. I would not be happy to see my family tortured alive, but I wouldn't see them tortured in Hell if I was in Heaven, and there is no grief in Heaven. I would not grieve them, and even now I don't grieve at the idea, because I would know that it was their choice for themselves and there is no grief in Heaven. I'm not worried.

Actually you wouldn't be in Heaven (anyways). No believer will spend eternity in Heaven. Believers will spend eternity with Christ (God) in the Eternal New Earth. Also, showing you are not worried for your family's well being is not a good sign. We should always be concerned for those who could be lost.

3. Nobody goes to Hell for anything "minor". People go to Hell for rejecting God, which is actually pretty major. Seriously. That was covered in one Commandment, not to mention other several times in Scripture.

I am not in disagreement with on that point.

I made the point that God always notifies. If you can't see how notification is better than blindsiding, I don't know what else to tell you. Also, (most) men don't willingly take the heat in someone else's place. It's pretty clear who's more merciful and just.

Oh, good. Let's talk about the just part. How exactly is God just for torturing people for a finite amount of crimes? Can you explain the goodness in that? I would love to hear it.

I have explained, here and earlier. If this is not enough, it's because you simply reject it. You want to water down Scripture and make eternity fit your liking, and judge God Himself. You don't like it, so you don't believe it. You're still judging by your ways and not God's ways. His ways are not our ways. Isaiah 55:8 - "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.

*Picks up mirror and reflects it back at you again*

We don't even have God's thoughts in order to fully understand God's ways; neither you nor I do. But the difference is that I accept His words, and welcome His thoughts and ways where you seem not to in places, specifically regarding justice and eternity.

Scripture says we can know God's judgments. If not, then His Word is broken then.

I'm going to pray for your higher understanding of God's justice, fairness, and morality.

Ah yes. A good dose of Jeremiah 33:3 is always good for us. I agree.

But until then, I gotta go. I am not to speak any further when the person is not listening. My Father in Heaven wouldn't approve of it. Matthew 10:14 -

If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet.

May God bless you.
And may His love shine upon you.


Source Used:
What is the scriptural basis for the conditionalist doctrine of hell? - Christianity Stack Exchange