Paul - ignore his teachings?

[weakness]

I don't think Paul would glory in any thing but the lord, maybe he is speaking of Jesus??

 

[DesiredHaven]

I don't think Paul would glory in any thing but the lord, maybe he is speaking of Jesus??

I know exactly what you mean, its the first thing I thought on one level I suppose, then you run the word glory (even as in boast, or boasting and glorying) and it seems to be used in respects to others also. Just as he speaking of glorying in the Lord (even the cross of Christ) making the Lord his boast (and none of that in men) on other level he seems to do just that another.

2 Cr 9:2-3 For I know the forwardness of your mind, for which I boast [SUP]G2744 [/SUP]of you to them of Macedonia, that Achaia was ready a year ago; and your zeal hath provoked very many. Yet have I sent the brethren, lest our boasting [SUP]G2745 [/SUP]of you should be in vain in this behalf; that, as I said, ye may be ready:

Seems to be a tad bit of liberty there, at least on what it might mean if following it out and comparing it elsewhere.

 

[secularhermit]

Secularhermit, what exactly did you not understand in what I posted on that thread?

What is your "hmmmmm" for?

You posted it "as if" its some secret thing when I posted that openly and not in secret

I am not interested in playing games with you anymore than I am in receiving pretentious cyber requests for virtual pal-hood, so I decided to ignore the requests if received. That will work fine for me.

Your reason for not contacting me by PM?

Nooooooo!

I also have PMs disabled, and turned off.

Forums serves to "chat" with our thoughts.

 

[DesiredHaven]

Nooooooo!

I also have PMs disabled, and turned off.

Forums serves to "chat" with our thoughts.

Thats your problem for disabling them. Then dont be chasing me around the forum posting from off of other topics into completely unrelated topics

Your off topic

 

[Jeff_56]

......i know Peter 'came to himself'....just wondering how we'd feel if half the stuff that happened to the Apostles happened to us?

in the chruches that have the form of religion only , they never find out.

(with no attention at all to feelings-not even a care nor a thought)

read the previous verses to see why people in multitudes of chruches
don't know yahweh's life nor power today, (a few do, though just a few)

and what is required

to see yahweh's work daily >>>

[h=1] Acts 12 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
[/h] 12 It was around this time that King Herod began arresting and persecuting certain members of the Messianic community; [SUP]2 [/SUP]and he had Ya‘akov, Yochanan’s brother, put to death by the sword. [SUP]3 [/SUP]When Herod saw how much this pleased the Judeans, he went on to arrest Kefa as well. It was during the Days of Matzah, [SUP]4 [/SUP]so when Herod seized him, he threw him in prison, handing him over to be guarded by four squads of four soldiers each, with the intention of bringing him to public trial after Pesach. [SUP]5 [/SUP]So Kefa was being held under watch in prison, but intense prayer was being made to Yahweh Elohim on his behalf by the Messianic community.

 

[newlife7]

Most people misinterpret what Paul says because of the verse that Jesus said about how He did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it, and anyone who teaches different is considered the least in the Kingdom of God ( I'm paraphrasing of course.) However, Paul is explaining that the only way to fulfill the law is by obeying the New Covenant. Love fulfill the law and even if we studied the Old Covenant and were able to obey it word for word (which we can not do because that is where sin gets its power) the Old Covenant will still be unable to live by because we messed up already one time. Do what I did and camp out in the New Covenant until you see that it rails against us trying to live by both covenants. The law ( in the Greek it doesn't just mean the first five books called the torah, but also refers to the whole Old covenant) is for sinners and its only purpose is to show us we are sinners,
and that we need Jesus. I could list scripture after scripture from the New Covenant that explains all of this.

 

[crossnote]

Most people misinterpret what Paul says because of the verse that Jesus said about how He did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it, and anyone who teaches different is considered the least in the Kingdom of God ( I'm paraphrasing of course.) However, Paul is explaining that the only way to fulfill the law is by obeying the New Covenant. Love fulfill the law and even if we studied the Old Covenant and were able to obey it word for word (which we can not do because that is where sin gets its power) the Old Covenant will still be unable to live by because we messed up already one time. Do what I did and camp out in the New Covenant until you see that it rails against us trying to live by both covenants. The law ( in the Greek it doesn't just mean the first five books called the torah, but also refers to the whole Old covenant) is for sinners and its only purpose is to show us we are sinners,
and that we need Jesus. I could list scripture after scripture from the New Covenant that explains all of this.

That's the problem...we don't fulfill the law, not even the law of love. Jesus fulfilled ALL righteousness in our stead, we are to believe/trust in Him. He is OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
The New Covenant is an unconditional Covenant because Jesus fulfilled all it's conditions and freely bestows upon us it's benefits through faith in Him.

 

[newlife7]

We love because He first loved us, maybe fulfill is not the right word. I was just trying to explain how much the New Covenant rails against us trying to live by both Covenants

 

[JaumeJ]

Many do indeed misunderstand the straight forward teaching of Jesus Christ on the law when He tells us it is here as long as there is a creation, this age. Also, misunderstanding Paul, perhaps even ignoring what is not convenient due to itching ears, they forget Paul teachs our faith ESTABLISHES the law. Now anything estabilished is here to stay, howver the new understanding teaches us that grace is what fulfills the law for all, for all are sinners. A sinner is one who breaks the law. We are no longer seen as sinners by the Father for our transgressions are no longer held against us.

How can any believer in any honesty say the laws on morality, the Ten Commandments, and any good law is extinct? This in itself is immoral if not blasphemous.

The itching ears have a favorite toold, that being all the statues concerning the theocracy that was Israel concerning physical presence in Israel, the Temple, Sacrifices, and clean laws. These have been completed by Jesus Christ, all of them. He also teaches the Son of Man desires mercy and not sacrifice doing away with vindictive laws calling for execution. We are to forgive others their trespasses against us if we are truly following His Perfect Example for He came to forgive not to condemn, yet so many use the LAW as a tool for pointing accusing fingers at others for their sin, that is, for their breaking th elaw. I ask these hypocrites if they are without sin

Let us all live lives honoring the One Who lived and died horribly in order to give us these teachings and stop perverting His teachings. Paul agrees with Jesus Christ therefor anyone teaching contrary to our RAbbi and under the impression Paul is authorized in any manner to change the Master's teaachings does not understand the Master not Paul.

May God bless all who are in Jesus Chrsit, amen.

 

[newlife7]

Paul also says that the law is for sinners not for the godly!

 

[newlife7]

I'm not trying to have quarrels about the law because scripture tells us not to and it also tells us the purpose of the law very clearly. It is what the entire book of Galatians is about pretty much. Also the book of Hebrews makes it very clear that when there is a change in a high priest, there must be a change in the law as well.

 

[newlife7]

Paul's teachings do not contradict Jesus' teachings.

 

[JaumeJ]

By your posts you are in agreement with me. This is to say we believe Jesus Christ and Paul, for they agree. God bless you always in Jesus Christ, amen..-.

Paul also says that the law is for sinners not for the godly!

I'm not trying to have quarrels about the law because scripture tells us not to and it also tells us the purpose of the law very clearly. It is what the entire book of Galatians is about pretty much. Also the book of Hebrews makes it very clear that when there is a change in a high priest, there must be a change in the law as well.

Paul's teachings do not contradict Jesus' teachings.

 

[just-me]

The New Covenant is an unconditional Covenant

see this post

No conditions??? "An unconditional Covenant" is an oxymoron.

There is a pattern to the covenants found in the Bible. Basically, it is as follows. The initiating party describes himself and what He has done, then there is a list of obligations between the two (or more) parties. What follows is the section dealing with rewards and punishments that govern the keeping and breaking of the covenant. Exodus 20 through 23 fit this pattern and is a covenant document.

The Eternal Covenant, then, leads to the Covenant of grace. Where the Eternal Covenant was made between the Father and the Son, the Covenant of Grace is made between God and man. This latter covenant is where God promises to man eternal salvation based upon the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. The manifestation of that covenant occurs in our world in a sequence of additional covenants that God made with individuals: Adam (Gen. 2:15-17), Noah (Gen. 9:12-16), Abraham (Gen. 17), the Israelites at Mount Sinai (Exodus 34:28), believers in the New Covenant (Jer. 31:31-37), etc. I present the view that there are two main covenants. However, there is disagreement as to the number of Covenants. Some say there is really only one, the Eternal Covenant, with all others falling under it. With Covenant understood as a framework through which the Bible was written, we can better understand it, God’s dealings with us through it, and our responsibilities to God as well as His to us.

Unconditional??

 

[Least]

I cannot say for sure, in the sense that we ourselves can bring forth thorns (not being fruitful) in that sense, then we have the picture of people (likewise) being the same ( even as you show it) . Then what we see as given to Paul (a thorn in) the flesh (as if unrelated to either or) but is still referred to as a messenger of Satan right? So even if we might say, wait a second Paul also spake of an inifimity (in his flesh) of some kind (but is somewhat unclear) we have that also which was by Satan in the woman who had a spirit of inifirmity (in her flesh) which could also be understood to be a messenger of Satan in that regard as something sent and by Him (but which is also inclusive of an infirmity of the flesh) of some kind. In her case Jesus says its a spirit of inifirmity (although she is still a daughter of Abraham) before Jesus looses her from this thing (which thing was not removed from Paul) These seem to keep them unable to "lift themselves up" in either case (phyisically or spiritually so)

.
That's why I originally mentioned 2 Corinthians ch. 11, (the chapter before Paul spoke of the "thorn in the flesh.") Because who speaks of many circumstances where he suffered.

2 Corinthians 11:22 Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.
2 Corinthians 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
2 Corinthians 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
2 Corinthians 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
2 Corinthians 11:26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
2 Corinthians 11:27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
2 Corinthians 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
2 Corinthians 11:29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
2 Corinthians 11:30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
2 Corinthians 11:32 In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me:
2 Corinthians 11:33 And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.

DesiredHaven,
But then we have what Paul calls the "temptation in his flesh" see how that is worded? But things of all three it seems as if they can be of one thing looking at all the examples given us. First called , a messenger of Satan (so it is sent) of Satan (so permitted, as it was in Jobs case). Second, we have an infirmity (which Paul says he had) then look at the spirit of inifirmity and that brings in the messenger of this thing (something sent, into the flesh) by another. Just as Satan was allowed to touch Jobs flesh (with his expressed intention to tempt Job) thus a temptation in Jobs flesh (in that way, as I am seeing it). Whether he touches flesh and bone or flesh or bone. Like the woman bent over, with a bad back, being unable to lift herself up (for 18 years). Her bone would seem more like that which was touched (and herself bound by Satan there) by a spirit of infirmity (in just that thing).
But back to Job the temptation (as sent into Jobs flesh) comes by the mouth of Satan (towards you) God-ward that if Job's flesh (and/or bone) were touched that he would what by it? Curse God to his face (the temptation in his flesh then). The more I look at it the more I received and it seems to be speaking of these in combination. See how all three pictures combine together to show a bigger thing (together)?

This also reminds me of the wilderness tempation of Jesus. (Luke 4: 4) This didn't involve any natural person: Luke 4:2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.

Of course we know that even after that, Jesus still faced persecution, even to the cross.

Luke 6:44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

I just caught the fact the his wife (who is Jobs flesh and bone also) was whispering the same thing in his ear Satan desired of Him when she said, hold fast to thine integrity? Curse God and die! And so I have been puring through various verses where you can somewhat see how his own wife was taken captive at his will (in this situation) which is the snare of the devil in this. He seems to go after the wives in these things to snag the men huh?

Very good points with the example of Job. His friends also stood in that place and were corrected at the end of the chapter.
I've always found that amazing..for several reasons...but I'll leave that for another discussion.

Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
Job 42:8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.

At the end Job prays for his friends, and there's the mercy and forgiveness. Jesus showed that great mercy even to the cross, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

Anyway, I had thought of those verse on one level many years ago, but I wasnt getting it to mesh together and the other places where really unifying for me and now I sort of see these coming together much differently, and you always know your on the right path as everything begins to interlock and fold in together and contradictions fade and bigger pictures emmerge (and all of that). Now I am really bad at articuling things into my own words (and sort of hate to do that) I feel the scriptures are more precise, and I have these in just scripts alone, but they are a tad hard to follow if you dont see them as putting them together as one thing.

Agreed, I love when that happens! Part of continuing, seeking, knocking and asking. Waiting on the Lord to bring it together in His timing. That always reminds me of when Jesus said:

John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

I believe that is precisely the reason Jesus said that "if we continue in His word we are His disciples indeed, and we shall know the truth, and the truth shall make us free."

Still prayerfully examining these different passages as well.

Thanks for sharing your insights. It's so nice to discuss the scriptures as they are without debate and strife. So much more ground is gained that way.

God bless

 

[michael56]

How can any believer in any honesty say the laws on morality, the Ten Commandments, and any good law is extinct? This in itself is immoral if not blasphemous

It gets kinda wearying having to keep quoting this:

Christ is the end of the law ''unto righteousness''-not full stop!!!

The law God requires you to keep remains, the penalty for breaking it however has been removed from the born again Christian. If that is not possible to understand, I sincerely suggest you pray for guidance and look to the Holy Spirit for the truth of it

 

[psychomom]

see this post

No conditions??? "An unconditional Covenant" is an oxymoron.

There is a pattern to the covenants found in the Bible. Basically, it is as follows. The initiating party describes himself and what He has done, then there is a list of obligations between the two (or more) parties. What follows is the section dealing with rewards and punishments that govern the keeping and breaking of the covenant. Exodus 20 through 23 fit this pattern and is a covenant document.

The Eternal Covenant, then, leads to the Covenant of grace. Where the Eternal Covenant was made between the Father and the Son, the Covenant of Grace is made between God and man. This latter covenant is where God promises to man eternal salvation based upon the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. The manifestation of that covenant occurs in our world in a sequence of additional covenants that God made with individuals: Adam (Gen. 2:15-17), Noah (Gen. 9:12-16), Abraham (Gen. 17), the Israelites at Mount Sinai (Exodus 34:28), believers in the New Covenant (Jer. 31:31-37), etc. I present the view that there are two main covenants. However, there is disagreement as to the number of Covenants. Some say there is really only one, the Eternal Covenant, with all others falling under it. With Covenant understood as a framework through which the Bible was written, we can better understand it, God’s dealings with us through it, and our responsibilities to God as well as His to us.

Unconditional??

the eternal covenant is the New Covenant. (just calling it what the Bible calls it. )

it's the one first promised in Gen 3. it's the one all the types and shadows in the Mosaic covenant point to.

since the beginning of time, God's saving covenant with mankind has been one of grace.
no one was ever saved keeping the Law. no one but Christ ever kept it.

the Lord Jesus fulfilled all God's Holy conditions so now our relationship with God
is wholly unconditional.
yes, we have 'responsibilities', but doing them or failing to do them never affects our right standing with God.
our right standing with God is predicated on the perfect performance of the Lord Jesus.

it's not like on days we're doing well (whatever that may be in our estimation), God loves and accepts us more, and on days we're not doing well, God loves and accepts us less...

so, yeah...an eternal covenant made between God the Father and God the Son, if you like.
we are passive recipients of that Work done on our behalf.
Good News, right?

 

[Elin]

Deifying the Paul´s teachings?

All Scripture is the word of God, and even in the NT Paul's writings were considered to be Scripture (2Pe 3:16), as were Luke's (Lk 10:9), whom Paul quoted as Scripture (1Tim 5:18).

 

[Elin]

Thanks God he said nothing of them!

What else could have been introduced as teaching?

(I´m not defying, just my thoughts said)

Paul was forbidden by the risen Christ to speak some of his revelations.

 

[Elin]

Good point DesiredHaven!

Looking at other passages that mention, "thorns,"

Numbers 33:55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.

Ezekiel 28:24 And there shall be no more a pricking brier unto the house of Israel, nor any grieving thorn of all that are round about them, that despised them; and they shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

Micah 7:3 That they may do evil with both hands earnestly, the prince asketh, and the judge asketh for a reward; and the great man, he uttereth his mischievous desire: so they wrap it up.
Micah 7:4 The best of them is as a brier: the most upright is sharper than a thorn hedge: the day of thy watchmen and thy visitation cometh; now shall be their perplexity.

There are several verses that mention, "thorns." Thank you for pointing that out.

Spending some time tonight reading through the different passages.

Paul seems to indicate that he had an eye disease.