Sinless Perfectionism

[royalscot]

law v grace .
what master do you serve. and in whos name. do you do anything for god. through jesus.

 

[Jason0047]

Do you float to your computer everday?
....or do you have the computer float to you?

If you want to discuss the Bible, I would kindly ask you to do so seeing we are on a Bible discussion forum.
If you want to insult people go to an insult forum.
But please know that if you were to do so, such a thing is not of God.

 

[Blain]

Jesus does not say strive to be perfect.
That is an addition to Scripture that you have added (and such a thing is wrong).

As for 1 John 1:8: Well, 1 John 1:8 is a warning to the brethren about the false believers who were trying to deceive them into a false way of thinking, which was to say one had no sin whatsoever. Meaning, their belief is similar to the Antinomian today who says their sin was forgiven them past, present, and future and they had no more sin debt. So sin (on a spiritual level) does not exist for them because it is taken away in Christ. So when they sin, they are saying they don't have sin because it is forgiven (All of it) versus say.... Confessing your sin so as to be forgiven of it (1 John 1:9) (Which is what the true believer does if sin were to arise in their life). However, there are many Antinomian folks today who say they do not have to confess their sins because they have no more sin debt. They are saying they have no sin spiritually (even when they sin), which is wrong.

is that so? so then your interpretation of scripture is right but if I interpret what the bible says its wrong? I have not seen evidence of your interpretation of scripture bringing ppl close to God's heart but I have seen my interpretation do this. no one may be good enough to you but they are to him, you see through the fleshly eyes but I am looking through God's, you see through not sinning through being good enough but i see through love and they are good enough to me because they are good enough to him.

If being imperfect and not being sinless makes me a fool makes me not a Christian then I remain a fool and I refuse to be a Christian. I will be a child of God and I will love and I will care for all others in their imperfection in their struggles in sin they will be good enough to me I am going to hold them in their tears in their pain in their sin in their imperfection and I am going to show them God's heart and who they are to him. I will cut off my right hand before i see through your eyes I will die before I allow any one else to be hurt and crying and feeling not good enough.

I do desire more than anything to mend thier wounds and broken hearts because of ppl like you because of the world because of who they are to others, I cry at night all the time because my heart aches because I know and see this inside ppl even though they try to hide it.

 

[Jason0047]

is that so? so then your interpretation of scripture is right but if I interpret what the bible says its wrong? I have not seen evidence of your interpretation of scripture bringing ppl close to God's heart but I have seen my interpretation do this. no one may be good enough to you but they are to him, you see through the fleshly eyes but I am looking through God's, you see through not sinning through being good enough but i see through love and they are good enough to me because they are good enough to him.

If being imperfect and not being sinless makes me a fool makes me not a Christian then I remain a fool and I refuse to be a Christian. I will be a child of God and I will love and I will care for all others in their imperfection in their struggles in sin they will be good enough to me I am going to hold them in their tears in their pain in their sin in their imperfection and I am going to show them God's heart and who they are to him. I will cut off my right hand before i see through your eyes I will die before I allow any one else to be hurt and crying and feeling not good enough.

I do desire more than anything to mend thier wounds and broken hearts because of ppl like you because of the world because of who they are to others, I cry at night all the time because my heart aches because I know and see this inside ppl even though they try to hide it.

That is not an answer to the questions I asked.

 

[Hepzibah]

10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

Paul says that those who are perfect, and he must include himself here, should be like him in his resurrection and suffering. He is speaking of two perfections. Why was Paul not perfect Jason?

 

[Blain]

Again, have you talked with these people and did they specifically say that they left God and stopped believing in Him because they could not be sinlessly perfect? Is that what they told you? Did you ask them specifically why they left God?

Yes I have and yes this is exactly what they said, you are not aware of the damage your belief does to ppl. I am sick of seeing ppl in pain and sad and in tears because of stuff like this.

 

[Blain]

That is not an answer to the questions I asked.

you still refuse to answer mine so why should I answer yours how you want me to?

 

[Jason0047]

you still refuse to answer mine so why should I answer yours how you want me to?

What question did you ask and did you ask it first? If so, I will be happy to answer it as long as you answer mine in return.

 

[Blain]

What question did you ask and did you ask it first? If so, I will be happy to answer it as long as you answer mine in return.

I have asked you in every debate you and I have had about your doctrine and you never once gave me an answer and if you did I sure didn't see it. you ask me to answer several different scripture and I only ask you to answer me one If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth

So again if you are correct then explain to me what he is saying here?

 

[Hepzibah]

6, If we say that we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness we lie and do not the truth.



7, But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from ALL sin



(BUT)


8, If we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us



(BUT)


9, If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.



(BUT)



10, If we say that we have not sinned we make Him a liar and His Word is not in us]



We can see that John is comparing walking in the light to walking in darkness ie walking in the flesh compared to walking in the Spirit. He is describing two different opposing state which corresponds perfectly with the teaching of the Apostle Paul when he talks about 'carnal' or fleshy believers against those who were walking in the Spirit.. In verses 7 and 9, John says that the benefit of walking in the light are:-


1)We have fellowship with one another in the unity of the Spirit (agreement)
2)By confessing our sins we will be forgiven
3)We will then be cleansed by the blood of Jesus from all unrighteousness and sin.


Whereas if we walk in the flesh:-


1)We are deceived and remain in our sin
2)There is no truth in us
3)We make God a liar by denying our need for forgiveness.


So John is saying that it is only when we are walking in the darkness that we are blind to our need of coming to Christ for His cleansing from ALL sin. The letter is to believers and not un-believers as stated previously. And believers can fall into the error of walking in the flesh as Paul demonstrated to the Galatians who thought that they could go on to maturity or perfection through the works of the law and not through faith.


Those who were being misled by the Gnosticism and today by the preachers of 'positional righteousness' were walking in darkness because they were still sinning and did not see their need of the cleansing which can be provided by Christ alone. So they thought that they had no sin to be dealt with and were acceptable as they were, but John says that they walk in darkness. But if we see our need for cleansing from ALL sin and come to Christ (again) for forgiveness, then He will be able to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness (not just the sin in question please note) So it is these ones who are saying wrongly that they have no sin not the ones who have come to Christ and HAVE been cleansed from ALL unrighteousness.


John goes on in the rest of his epistle to show that those who do carry on in sin (but say they have no further need of cleansing) are NOT in CHRIST. He stresses his point against the Gnostic heresy Little children let no man deceive you, he that doeth righteousness is righteous even as He is righteous 3:7 and this is the test i.e. as He is righteous so must we be not just in position or as a hope for the future but as a present reality that we must be as Christ, without sin if we are walking in the light.



But whoso keepth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected 2:5



My little children these things I write unto you that ye sin not 2:1



Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not whosoever sinneth not hath not seen Him neither known Him 3:6



He that commiteth sin is of the devil 3:8



Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin 3:9



[FONT=Courier New, monospace]Let me end my discussion of 1 John 3:9 with this:[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]

[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]That the word sin in the Greek is the present tense indicative is beyond[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]dispute. Anybody can check this fact with Bible Works or another such program.[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]The Linguistic Key to the Greek New Testament says, "The present tense[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]indicates continual, habitual action." The Syntax of the Moods and Tenses in[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]the New Testament, by Ernest Burton, says, "The present indicative is used of[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]action in progress in present time." And the Orthodox Study Bible, representing[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]Greek Orthodox theology says that 1 John 3:9 is literally, "does not keep on[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]sinning."[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]

[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]The New Bible Commentary states, "If he is born again from above he will[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]habitually lead the life of a born-again person, in spite of stumbles; if he[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]continually sins he is of the devil, so that the false teachers were wrong in[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]saying that sin does not matter. As righteous living characterized the Master,[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]so it must characterize the servant." [/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]

[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]So what John is NOT teaching is:[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]1. that a born again person cannot sin.[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]2. that his sin are not real ones[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]3. that God automatically forgives our sins without confession[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]4. that God does not see his sins, but rather sees the blood of Christ instead[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]5. that sins are not imputed to him[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]6. that the new man does not sin while the old man does sin[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]7. that all one's sins are already forgiven, past, present, and future[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]8. that a little sin is ok[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]

[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]What John is saying, throughout his epistle, is that Jesus came to save you[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]from sin and sinning, and if you have not made a break with the habit of[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]sinning, you are not even at the beginning. You are not even saved. If you are[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]genuinely saved, then you no longer knowingly do wrong all the time. That is[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]
[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]the beginning point on the highway of holiness.[/FONT]

 

[Jason0047]

I have asked you in every debate you and I have had about your doctrine and you never once gave me an answer and if you did I sure didn't see it. you ask me to answer several different scripture and I only ask you to answer me one If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth

So again if you are correct then explain to me what he is saying here?

He is saying the same thing I have been saying which is what the Bible teaches. 1 Peter 4:1 says they that suffer in the flesh have ceased from sin. Galatians 5:24 says those that are Christ's have crucified the afffections and lusts. Yes, some believers do struggle with sin. That is what 1 John 1:9 is for. But believers do not set out with the mindset that they will always sin and not overcome sin. Paul mentions in Ephesians 2 and Colossians 3 that we used to be sinners in our old past life but we are not that way anymore. Paul says in Romans 6 that you are either a slave to righteousness or you are a slave to sin and death. Jesus says if you sin, you are a slave to sin. The question is....

Why would you want to continue in sin?
For if you knew of a way to stop sinning so as to please God, why would you not want to take that chance?
Well, the Bible says it is because of the Condemnation in John 3:19-21. Men loved their darkness and their evil deeds more than they loved the light. That is why.

 

[Blain]

Jason here is the difference in this discussion between you and I. You speak with scripture you do not understand, I speak with scriptures but more than that I speak with my heart and my heart knows who God is my heart knows how he sees because he himself gave my heart such insight not because my heart is pure and sinless.

You think just because you use scripture makes what you think correct and valid? You think that scripture and being sinless and being holy is what it means to be a Christian? Being a Christian was never about being perfect or sinless or knowing scripture, it is about the heart it is about love it is about the intimacy between God and for all others it is about how strong and perfect God is not how strong or perfect we are it is about that fiery passion and love for god and for all others.

if you still do not understand this then you are no Christian just another person who claims to be one

 

[Reborn]

If you want to discuss the Bible, I would kindly ask you to do so seeing we are on a Bible discussion forum.
If you want to insult people go to an insult forum.
But please know that if you were to do so, such a thing is not of God.

OSAS is the truth, Jason.

What you teach as truth..... insults others.
Please do not do that, such a thing is not of God.

 

[Jason0047]

OSAS is the truth, Jason.

What you teach as truth..... insults others.
Please do not do that, such a thing is not of God.

You have to actually show Bible verses to prove your case, though. Just saying it is so does not make it true. Our standard is God's Word and not our own thoughts or words.

 

[sparkman]

Sorry Jason that man cannot control his appetite. Fat men should not preach perfection.

Yes...I've seen those sorts of self righteous people...very oblivious to the obvious sins they have, yet claiming to be sinless.

One guy that I mentioned goes on college campuses and 'preaches' to students. He is very foul mouthed and talks about explicit sexual acts in front of them. He also told one guy he was going to use his eye sockets like bowling bowl holes and pitch the guy in hell. I really can think of no worse example I've ever seen of being a Christian, yet he claimed sinless perfectionism. And I haven't seen one sinless perfectionist who seemed to have a peaceful, loving attitude or approach to others. I do not think in general people who claim to be sinless are saved..I can see such a self deception for a while but not as a continuing lifestyle. I John clearly addresses this sort of thing.

 

[Jason0047]

Jason here is the difference in this discussion between you and I. You speak with scripture you do not understand, I speak with scriptures but more than that I speak with my heart and my heart knows who God is my heart knows how he sees because he himself gave my heart such insight not because my heart is pure and sinless.

You think just because you use scripture makes what you think correct and valid? You think that scripture and being sinless and being holy is what it means to be a Christian? Being a Christian was never about being perfect or sinless or knowing scripture, it is about the heart it is about love it is about the intimacy between God and for all others it is about how strong and perfect God is not how strong or perfect we are it is about that fiery passion and love for god and for all others.

if you still do not understand this then you are no Christian just another person who claims to be one

Again, you seek to attack me like many others here instead of addressing what the Bible really says. If you cannot discuss the Bible, I am going to assume you have no understanding of those passages. For a true believer wants to talk about God's Word. For man shall not live by bread alone.

 

[Hepzibah]

sparkman

Yes I know the preacher, I have seen a video of him. It amazes me how they can't see their sins.

 

[Jason0047]

Yes...I've seen those sorts of self righteous people...very oblivious to the obvious sins they have, yet claiming to be sinless.

One guy that I mentioned goes on college campuses and 'preaches' to students. He is very foul mouthed and talks about explicit sexual acts in front of them. He also told one guy he was going to use his eye sockets like bowling bowl holes and pitch the guy in hell. I really can think of no worse example I've ever seen of being a Christian, yet he claimed sinless perfectionism. And I haven't seen one sinless perfectionist who seemed to have a peaceful, loving attitude or approach to others. I do not think in general people who claim to be sinless are saved..I can see such a self deception for a while but not as a continuing lifestyle. I John clearly addresses this sort of thing.

How many people who hold to sinless perfectionism actually behave that way, though?

Jesus said you will know a tree by it's fruit.

I can count more people who believe in OSAS that were just as nasty and mean.

 

[Reborn]

You have to actually show Bible verses to prove your case, though. Just saying it is so does not make it true. Our standard is God's Word and not our own thoughts or words.

You mean, our standards should be Jason's interpretation of God's truth?

People have presented our view of scripture to you.
You don't like the way we see them..........

........so, it goes back to that we all should see things how YOU see things?

 

[Jason0047]

You mean, our standards should be Jason's interpretation of God's truth?

People have presented our view of scripture to you.
You don't like the way we see them..........

........so, it goes back to that we all should see things how YOU see things?

God's Word can cut thru false interpretation like a sword. The Bible says we are to correct using the Word of God. Don't really see you doing that. Again, like many times I have said to you before, either discuss God's Word or go elswhere to insult people at the appropriate place.