Torah observance people vs Non-Torah observant people

[Biblelogic01]

I've been on here for a few months, and a lot of what I see is Torah vs. non-Torah.
Now I do believe that Torah is to be followed, but I have also learned that it is not something to be enforced on others.
I was taught this by my rabbi.
Whether someone believes in Torah observance, or not we are all believers, are we not?
If that's the case then why all the arguing and bickering.
Yes there are going to be different interpertations on how scripture is presented, and people are going to have different opinions. Just because we have different opinions does not mean we need to argue on those.

We should be educating each other and sharpenning each other as believers.
If someone says something you choose not to agree with, then just leave it at that.
Say you agree to disagree and then end it.
Carrying it out into and arguement is what the enemy want.s

With this I will end the thread with words from our Lord Yeshua
Mark 3:24-27
[SUP]24 [/SUP]If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. [SUP]25 [/SUP]And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And if Satan has risen up against himself, and is divided, he cannot stand, but has an end. [SUP]27 [/SUP]No one can enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. And then he will plunder his house.

 

[Grandpa]

Galatians 3:1-5
[SUP]1[/SUP]O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Torah "observance" is your carnal understanding of spiritual laws. Its your attempt to be "blessed" by your own works.

Galatians 3:10-12
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

If you could reconcile these verses with your Torah observance I sure would like to see it.

 

[kennethcadwell]

The debating comes because the bible in the NT states exactly what we are to observe under the new covenant of grace...

Acts 15 has the original Apostles discussing the Mosaic written ordinances of the Torah(OT) and what new Gentile believers to the faith are to observe. In verses 20, and 29 they determine by the Holy Spirit (verse 28) the only ordinances new covenant believers are to still obey; things offered to idols, from blood, things strangled, and sexual immorality.....

Some will continue to debate this but we are to take God's word over what any man says rather they are ordained to be a minister or not. For we are to test the spirits (1 John 4:1) to see if what they are saying aligns with God's word, and this unfortunately is a step in the faith that some do not do and just believe every whim/word that is told to them by the leaders of their denomination.

From here is where the real debating comes in because in some denominations they do not teach how to discern between the Mosaic laws (written ordinances) and God's moral laws, and end up lumping them all into one. The Jews however have always placed in their teachings, as well does the bible show this, that the 10 Commandments are God's moral laws as well as put into the written ordinances.

When they are in the Mosaic laws with the ordinances of punishments that go along with them if any of them are broken, then that part has been done away with. In the form of God's moral laws that is written in our hearts and minds to be walked in as an everyday way of life do to the love we will show that will uphold them, then this still applies.

Jesus when He said that following the two greatest commands to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind; And to love our neighbor as ourselves fulfills all the law and the prophets. Well the Apostle Paul taught more insight into what He was saying in Romans 13;

Romans 13:9-11

9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

I see to many people who have been taught Jesus fulfilled it all on the cross including the law, but that is not what Jesus said by fulling the law and saying it is finished on the cross. What Jesus said was that by believers walking in love fulfills God's moral commands, and His earthly ministry to usher in the new covenant of grace is what is finished. Jesus had to die for this new covenant to start and be in affect (Hebrews 9:16).

In Galatians that Grandpa gave is about those who seeked to be justified by keeping the Mosaic written ordinances instead of be justified by faith in Jesus. They were deceived to believing their keeping of those ordinances would gain them acceptance. Apostle Paul tells them this is a false gospel and if they continue this way then Christ has become of no effect to them, which means no remission of sins. Then he tells them they have fallen from God's grace, and those are both two things needed to receive salvation !!!

 

[Biblelogic01]

Galatians 3:1-5
[SUP]1[/SUP]O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Torah "observance" is your carnal understanding of spiritual laws. Its your attempt to be "blessed" by your own works.

Galatians 3:10-12
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

If you could reconcile these verses with your Torah observance I sure would like to see it.

Torah observance is where my walk has lead me. It's not just something I picked up and started doing. I guess you can call it "works", but to me I don't look at is as "works". To me it's just simple faithfull obedience to my understanding, and yes I have witnessed blessings that come from following Torah.
Am I going to force it on others? No.
Honestly if someone is going to challenge another on their Torah observance, that person must first understand Torah obsercvance. Seeing that you are against Torah observance, I would assume that you do not understand it.
Like I said before it's labelled as "works" but I do not see it that way. Torah is about 3 mian things from my understanding; 1 is the heart, there are a number of stories of when the heart was not right there was punishment; 2 is faith anything that involves the heart always leads to faith, and there are many stories of faith in the Torah; 3 is obedience, all God is asking is for people to be obedient to what is asked of them.
Now there is a way of understanding all of this together in Torah observance and seeing the Messiah in it all, which is where my walk has lead me.
Now do I think I'm better than the next person next to me? No, last time I checked we are all sinners.
Again am I going to enforce this on others? No, because that's not my place.
If someone wants an understanding will I explain it? Yes
Again do I think you want an understanding, I do apologize if you do, but I honestly do not think you really do want an understanding and you are just trying to challenge where I stand hoping to bend and change my walk to the walk you are on. Which I am not going to do.
We can simply agree to disagree.
And I also believe that we can both agree that Yeshua is our Lord and savior and the only way to salvation, which is what we should focus on.

 

[crossnote]

Define Torah.

 

[MarcR]

Grandpa,

Those few who practice Torah observance; but do not attempt to impose it on others: generally do not believe their observance is in any way connected with their salvation. They believe, from Mt 5:19 that Torah observance is still pleasing to God . While I am not among them, I understand their point of view.

 

[crossnote]

Define Torah.

I ask because most think of only the Law of Moses/Pentateuch rather than taking all of God's Word in it's proper context and observing it as intended.

 

[JesusIsAll]

I've not found Messianic Jews the problem, have found, at least around here, that many have been Adventists, Armstrongites, Jehovah's Witnesses, Hebrew roots, on and on, of false gospel cults of self righteousness and legal bondage not based in New Testament truth, some even with their own equally fabricated religions that are, likewise, neither of Old or New Testament faiths. They are teaching the commandments of men, not God, most from the writings of false, extra-Biblical prophets they've bought into, though in violation of clear scripture. It's not in things anybody does to worship they keep to themselves, rather the warned-of yoke of bondage crowd, that would be nice if they would just go away. They're simply deceivers, whether they know it or not.

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

 

[valiant]

Grandpa,

Those few who practice Torah observance; but do not attempt to impose it on others: generally do not believe their observance is in any way connected with their salvation. They believe, from Mt 5:19 that Torah observance is still pleasing to God . While I am not among them, I understand their point of view.

But can anyone tell me why someone who does not want it debated raises it on a thread?. The whole purpose of a thread is to debate the point that is raised. And it is only right that young believers who come on the site learn all points of view

 

[Biblelogic01]

The debating comes because the bible in the NT states exactly what we are to observe under the new covenant of grace...

Acts 15 has the original Apostles discussing the Mosaic written ordinances of the Torah(OT) and what new Gentile believers to the faith are to observe. In verses 20, and 29 they determine by the Holy Spirit (verse 28) the only ordinances new covenant believers are to still obey; things offered to idols, from blood, things strangled, and sexual immorality.....

Some will continue to debate this but we are to take God's word over what any man says rather they are ordained to be a minister or not. For we are to test the spirits (1 John 4:1) to see if what they are saying aligns with God's word, and this unfortunately is a step in the faith that some do not do and just believe every whim/word that is told to them by the leaders of their denomination.

From here is where the real debating comes in because in some denominations they do not teach how to discern between the Mosaic laws (written ordinances) and God's moral laws, and end up lumping them all into one. The Jews however have always placed in their teachings, as well does the bible show this, that the 10 Commandments are God's moral laws as well as put into the written ordinances.

When they are in the Mosaic laws with the ordinances of punishments that go along with them if any of them are broken, then that part has been done away with. In the form of God's moral laws that is written in our hearts and minds to be walked in as an everyday way of life do to the love we will show that will uphold them, then this still applies.

Jesus when He said that following the two greatest commands to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind; And to love our neighbor as ourselves fulfills all the law and the prophets. Well the Apostle Paul taught more insight into what He was saying in Romans 13;

Romans 13:9-11

9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

I see to many people who have been taught Jesus fulfilled it all on the cross including the law, but that is not what Jesus said by fulling the law and saying it is finished on the cross. What Jesus said was that by believers walking in love fulfills God's moral commands, and His earthly ministry to usher in the new covenant of grace is what is finished. Jesus had to die for this new covenant to start and be in affect (Hebrews 9:16).

In Galatians that Grandpa gave is about those who seeked to be justified by keeping the Mosaic written ordinances instead of be justified by faith in Jesus. They were deceived to believing their keeping of those ordinances would gain them acceptance. Apostle Paul tells them this is a false gospel and if they continue this way then Christ has become of no effect to them, which means no remission of sins. Then he tells them they have fallen from God's grace, and those are both two things needed to receive salvation !!!

I don't follow Torah as a means of salvation, or justifying my salvation.
I follow it as an obedience in love of the commandments of God.
Yeshua and God are one in the same, so I believe that Yeshua is the one who gave Moses Torah at Mt. Sinai. To me I look it as simple as 1+1=2. The scripture is not some ultra complicated thing that takes eons to study and understand like most make it out to be. It may take a couple or a few years, but it does not take eons. It's easy to understand, and this is the understanding that I've come to.
Now with the part as Yeshua and God are one in the same and gave the Torah to Moses, I am Jewish, therefor I am an Israeli decendent, and in Torah there are certain things that are commanded for Israel to observe through all generations, and I do observe that.
Now that is just a small sum and reason why I follow/observe Torah.
Now, again, I am not going to tell other to do so.
That's for a number of reasons, it's not my place to do so. Also I do not know whether the person I am talking to is Israeli decent or not.

 

[sparkman]

Biblelogic01, why do you have a rabbi when Christ says not to use that title?


Matt 23:1-13 1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2“The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, 3so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice. 4They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear,[SUP]a[/SUP] and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. 5They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, 6and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues 7and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi[SUP]b[/SUP] by others. 8But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers.[SUP]c[/SUP] 9And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. 11The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

By the way, Judaizers typically have an agenda. They are not here to learn; they are here to convert others to their "truth".

Some claim that non-Torah observers are unsaved, while others claim that they may be saved, but immature spiritually and that they will keep the Torah as a necessary fruit of salvation.

 

[Biblelogic01]

But can anyone tell me why someone who does not want it debated raises it on a thread?. The whole purpose of a thread is to debate the point that is raised. And it is only right that young believers who come on the site learn all points of view

I posted the thread because I'm tired of seeing the arguements/debates.
It's an endless circle.
And it comes from both sides.
That's why I quoted the passage from Mark 3 about a divided house.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Grandpa,

Those few who practice Torah observance; but do not attempt to impose it on others: generally do not believe their observance is in any way connected with their salvation. They believe, from Mt 5:19 that Torah observance is still pleasing to God . While I am not among them, I understand their point of view.

I also think that one thing people need to ask first to them is what is their intention on obeying those written ordinances;

1) Are they following them because of their love for God ???

2) Are they following them to receive something in return for doing so, as in being justified by them ???

If the answer is yes to the first question then I absolutely see no issue with that as long as they don't try and force this on others, but still they must remember they have to adhere to the whole 613 Mosaic laws. They can not pick and choose which ones to follow!!!

If the answer is yes to the second question then right away they need to be shown God's love and truth in His word to come out of that false teaching that will not lead to salvation.

 

[Biblelogic01]

Biblelogic01, why do you have a rabbi when Christ says not to use that title?


Matt 23:1-13 1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2“The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, 3so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice. 4They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear,[SUP]a[/SUP] and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. 5They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, 6and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues 7and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi[SUP]b[/SUP] by others. 8But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers.[SUP]c[/SUP] 9And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. 11The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

By the way, Judaizers typically have an agenda. They are not here to learn; they are here to convert others to their "truth".

Some claim that non-Torah observers are unsaved, while others claim that they may be saved, but immature spiritually and that they will keep the Torah as a necessary fruit of salvation.

I have a rabbi because I go to a synagogue. . . . . I'm Jewish, but believe in Yeshua as the Messiah.

Do you have a pastor? If so, why?

That's what you basically asked me, just in different wording.

 

[Biblelogic01]

I ask because most think of only the Law of Moses/Pentateuch rather than taking all of God's Word in it's proper context and observing it as intended.

The Torah is the whole first 5 books of the bible. That's what I understand Torah to be.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I posted the thread because I'm tired of seeing the arguements/debates.
It's an endless circle.
And it comes from both sides.
That's why I quoted the passage from Mark 3 about a divided house.

Friendly debates on bible discussions is good for the soul and helps to bring people to move forward in the spiritual growth in the faith.

However it is those that turn it into a heated debate and it becomes an argument is where it becomes wrong, and when it escalates to that then all parties involved need to learn to step back and remove themselves and calm down. Then come back and return to debating it in a friendly and respectful manner......

 

[sparkman]

Yes...as an Armstrongite, I can tell you for sure that their doctrinal issues don't stop at Judaizing. For instance, Armstrongism denied the Trinity, and claimed that mankind must be perfected through their life in order to enter the Kingdom, where they would be born as a God being in the resurrection.

Sabbath, festival, and clean/unclean meats are only an introduction into it..it is one step in a sequence to indoctrinate the person into it. Once you are convinced you are one of the chosen ones, the elect..it's easy to descend into their abysmal theology.

I suspect many of these groups are like that.



Here's a thread related to my experiences:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...rongism-forum-seventh-day-sabbathkeeping.html

I've not found Messianic Jews the problem, have found, at least around here, that many have been Adventists, Armstrongites, Jehovah's Witnesses, Hebrew roots, on and on, of false gospel cults of self righteousness and legal bondage not based in New Testament truth, some even with their own equally fabricated religions that are, likewise, neither of Old or New Testament faiths. They are teaching the commandments of men, not God, most from the writings of false, extra-Biblical prophets they've bought into, though in violation of clear scripture. It's not in things anybody does to worship they keep to themselves, rather the warned-of yoke of bondage crowd, that would be nice if they would just go away. They're simply deceivers, whether they know it or not.

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

 

[sparkman]

Ah ok..so you're a Jew who believes in Jesus Christ, but you still attend a synagogue?

Sorry..I thought you were a Hebrew Roots guy or something.

I have a rabbi because I go to a synagogue. . . . . I'm Jewish, but believe in Yeshua as the Messiah.

Do you have a pastor? If so, why?

That's what you basically asked me, just in different wording.

 

[sparkman]

Hmm..it seems like the Bible would forbid that title categorically though..

I have a rabbi because I go to a synagogue. . . . . I'm Jewish, but believe in Yeshua as the Messiah.

Do you have a pastor? If so, why?

That's what you basically asked me, just in different wording.

 

[Biblelogic01]

But can anyone tell me why someone who does not want it debated raises it on a thread?. The whole purpose of a thread is to debate the point that is raised. And it is only right that young believers who come on the site learn all points of view

And also if people want to come on to this thread and argue the whole issue, hopefully they are ignored.