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K
Look there is nothing wrong with reading the OT and the Torah which yes is the first 5 books of the OT.
There are many of good teachings from God in those books for all generations to observe.
My point was that people take and place the fact that the old covenant does not apply to us, and that the written ordinances of the Mosaic laws also don't apply under the new covenant. They go and just write off the whole OT and never even give it a glance.
I have even seen some churches and denominations that teach their members not to even read the OT, and the bibles they have consist of only the NT books. This is very misleading to do this because some of the passages in the NT do need knowledge from the OT to see what is exactly being said. Which is why I say some have not been taught to discern between the written ordinances and the moral aspect of the laws.
The part I would disagree with you on is the fact of learning the bible.
Yes the standard teachings on salvation does not take eons to learn, and can easily be studied and learned within a couple of years. However God will always constantly reveal new truths in His word to those who are seeking it and asking for the knowledge, rather they are seeking it to help them in a hard time or to make them better at helping other individuals by His word.
I know of a lot of well known pastors/preachers that have 20 or more years under them in studying the word, and they all say how amazed they are that with all those years under them God is still revealing new truths to them in the word. The only ones that I have come across who believe they know all things in the bible without any doubt, are usually the ones that the more they speak the more you can tell they are way off in what they teach....
B
I 100% agree with you on this. And I do understand where it is as far as the whole 613 laws to be followed, but what some do not understand on that is the majority of those commands are for priests/levites, the tabernacle/temple, when invading territories to take the promise land. And other laws are just actual simple acts of kindness. Which these things are never taught. Torah (the Law) for the most part is taught as something with no good outcome or good coming from it.
I would believe it's ok why Yeshua said the 2 greatest commandments are love the Lord your God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. Because if you look and read and understand Torah, that's all you're doing (as far as the "common" person).
There is no temple/tabernacle, no levitical priesthood, we are not invading countries. So there is no way to follow those, and as far as going to Jerusalem as far as a command on certain feasts. . . . Jerusalem did not exist when Torah was written, so I still don't fully understand that, but there's no temple in Jerusalem so we can't do that. As far as the priesthood and my understand is that Yeshua is now the Priest and He controls the judgements, unlike before hand where it was the levites. I could go on and on about this, it's a pretty long explaination.
But you are correct if someone is to follow Torah they are to follow the whole of Torah, but I do believe you can only follow so much due to certain circumstances on what the commands are, and what they are about.
I would believe it's ok why Yeshua said the 2 greatest commandments are love the Lord your God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. Because if you look and read and understand Torah, that's all you're doing (as far as the "common" person).
There is no temple/tabernacle, no levitical priesthood, we are not invading countries. So there is no way to follow those, and as far as going to Jerusalem as far as a command on certain feasts. . . . Jerusalem did not exist when Torah was written, so I still don't fully understand that, but there's no temple in Jerusalem so we can't do that. As far as the priesthood and my understand is that Yeshua is now the Priest and He controls the judgements, unlike before hand where it was the levites. I could go on and on about this, it's a pretty long explaination.
But you are correct if someone is to follow Torah they are to follow the whole of Torah, but I do believe you can only follow so much due to certain circumstances on what the commands are, and what they are about.
One of the things I have observed first hand with many Torah observants, is there is an over emphasis on the regulations prescribed under Moses to the exclusion of spreading the Gospel. It sometimes becomes the central focus rather than the dissemination of the Gospel. If their gaze ever goes outward it is to win converts to the Torah way of life.
B
Right, there's Torah, and then there's also oral Torah.
There were different sects of Jews back then, and there still are today. Some upheld oral Torah, some did not, some upheld parts of it.
When Yeshua would call out the Pharisees on "man-made traditions", I do believe Yeshua was referring Oral Torah.
Washing of hands for example.
The Pharisees washed hands before they ate as part of oral Torah tradition (Saducees did not practice this from my understanding).
The Pharisees were trying to judge based of of oral Torah, and Yeshua basically called them out on it.
There were different sects of Jews back then, and there still are today. Some upheld oral Torah, some did not, some upheld parts of it.
When Yeshua would call out the Pharisees on "man-made traditions", I do believe Yeshua was referring Oral Torah.
Washing of hands for example.
The Pharisees washed hands before they ate as part of oral Torah tradition (Saducees did not practice this from my understanding).
The Pharisees were trying to judge based of of oral Torah, and Yeshua basically called them out on it.
K
So then when the temple is rebuilt as the bible says and shows it will be, will you go back to animal sacrifice ????
Because when the temple gets rebuilt that means you will have to return to observing those laws as well, and if this be so then you would be voiding the reason that Jesus died on the cross for you. Jesus is the only sacrifice needed for remission of sins, but the bible makes it clear and so do the Jews that when the temple is rebuilt the animal sacrifices as well as the other temple laws will be back in affect. So you will have to choose at that point to place yourself with Christ, or to keep with obeying the sacrificial law instead....
J
It's evident of the cult denominations, too. There's this single minded determination to try to make converts of the man-made doctrines and loyalists of that singular "church" body, that sets itself apart: no Christ at the center of anything.
Note that this would be with respect to Torah pushers, as to the Torah discussion, not any Messianic Jewish observance, would not wish to lump any having Torah in their consciences with those being of a cult, though there are Messianic Jewish Torah pushers, claiming Christ.
Note that this would be with respect to Torah pushers, as to the Torah discussion, not any Messianic Jewish observance, would not wish to lump any having Torah in their consciences with those being of a cult, though there are Messianic Jewish Torah pushers, claiming Christ.
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funny you asked this after giving a reply.
I mean I have seen many Messianics get wound up in Feast Days, Sabbath observances, meats/food observances etc., yes voluntarily and not for salvation, but end up practically neglecting the Words (Torah) of Christ to spread the Gospel to all peoples. Thus they become ingrown rather than evangelical.
I mean I have seen many Messianics get wound up in Feast Days, Sabbath observances, meats/food observances etc., yes voluntarily and not for salvation, but end up practically neglecting the Words (Torah) of Christ to spread the Gospel to all peoples. Thus they become ingrown rather than evangelical.
B
Now before you go into reading this, I do believe there will be a mellinnial kingdom on earth where Yeshua is the King and the High Priest over that kingdom. Along with that, when the temple is rebuilt, I believe Yeshua Himself is going to oversee the construction of it.
With that said, Yeshua is the ultimate and is our High Priest. He has replaced the Levitical order. Do I think He's going to bring the Levitical order back? I am unsure of this to be honest.
From my understanding for their to be sacrifices in the temple it has to be done by a Levite.
And again from my understanding no one can be traced to the tribe of Levi currently.
Now continuing on if for some reason Yeshua reinstates the Levitical order.
I do not believe there will be sin offerings.
As we can see I believe it's in Acts or Romans, Paul takes a nazarite vow and he does it with others. Later on we see Paul goes and he either does or he attempts to make the offerings to fullfil a nazarite vow.
So to me based off of this, if Paul is willing to present offerings for a nazarite vow, I see why not there wouldn't be certain offerings when the temple is rebuilt. Because Paul did this after Yeshua's death.
So overall, currently I will be honest and say I do not have a full understanding on whether offerings will be done when the temple is rebuilt or not.
Paul obviously thought it was ok to do them at least for a nazarite vow.
So again based off of this there is some confusion on my part on whether there will be offerings or not.
But it's not the offerings that the Lord delights in, it's the heart of what is being brought to Him.
In this case whether it's an offering, worship and priase, glorifying Him, etc. it doesn't matter what is being brought as long as the heart is in the right spot.
As you can see in some spots in Torah and the propets where offerings were brought without any heart in it, and it was distasteful to God and God did not care for the offering.
I hope that answer is a good explaination on my understanding on it.
B
I see what you're saying, and yes there are groups out there that are like that.
But the majority of them are not.
The biggest example I can give is with Sukkot (feast of tabernacles).
The synagogue I go to plans a camping trip every year for Sukkot, it's quiet relaxing and enjoyable.
Every single year a family or 2 approaches us and asks us what we're doing (I do not remember a year where someone has not done this). We do explain what we are doing as far as Sukkot, but we do put that off to the side a little and use it as a time for ministering to others, and we'll explain salavation through Yeshua. Sometimes we'll put on a small mention of the feast itself if someone asks, but when going into what I call "ministry mode" the majority of us don't mention the feast itself except to explain how you can see Yeshua in it.
We also do this with Passover as well, we invite people to our Passover sedars and explain salvation through Yeshua and how you can see it in Passover in how Yeshua is the Passover lamb, but the main focus again is on the salvation and not the feast itself.
We also do homeless ministries as well.
Now yes there are some groups that just huddle in together and stick to themselves. Is this wrong, I would say yes and no.
It's really hard to explain the no part.
And the yes part is obvious on why I would believe its wrong.
But the majority of them are not.
The biggest example I can give is with Sukkot (feast of tabernacles).
The synagogue I go to plans a camping trip every year for Sukkot, it's quiet relaxing and enjoyable.
Every single year a family or 2 approaches us and asks us what we're doing (I do not remember a year where someone has not done this). We do explain what we are doing as far as Sukkot, but we do put that off to the side a little and use it as a time for ministering to others, and we'll explain salavation through Yeshua. Sometimes we'll put on a small mention of the feast itself if someone asks, but when going into what I call "ministry mode" the majority of us don't mention the feast itself except to explain how you can see Yeshua in it.
We also do this with Passover as well, we invite people to our Passover sedars and explain salvation through Yeshua and how you can see it in Passover in how Yeshua is the Passover lamb, but the main focus again is on the salvation and not the feast itself.
We also do homeless ministries as well.
Now yes there are some groups that just huddle in together and stick to themselves. Is this wrong, I would say yes and no.
It's really hard to explain the no part.
And the yes part is obvious on why I would believe its wrong.
The law of God as revealed to Moses and recorded in the first five books of the Hebrew scriptures (the Pentateuch).
תורה = Torah
ת = the sign of light (foreshadow)
ו = manifestation of man's weakness
ר = given the understanding of redemption
ה = spiritual understanding of God's grace recorded within the Pentateuch
תורה = Torah
"Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?" (John 3:7-10
תורה = Torah
ת = the sign of light (foreshadow)
ו = manifestation of man's weakness
ר = given the understanding of redemption
ה = spiritual understanding of God's grace recorded within the Pentateuch
תורה = Torah
"Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?" (John 3:7-10
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