The Catechism vs The Bible

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
1,998
113
#1
Salvation:

The Catechism (C) "The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: 'For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained.'" Pg. 215, #816

The Bible: (B) "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13)


Salvation Through Good Works:

(C) "Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved." Pg. 222, #837.

These works include baptism (pg. 320, #1257) various sacraments (pg 292, #1129) plus many additional works.

(B) "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God; Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)


The Church Forgives Sins:


(C)
"By Christ's will, the Church possesses the power to forgive the sins of the baptized..." Pg. 257, #986.

"The Church, who through the bishop and his priests forgives sins in the name of Jesus Christ..." Pg. 363-364, #1448.

(B) "Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God only?" (Mark 2:7)

One of the reasons the Jews wanted to kill Christ, was because Jesus claimed to have the power to forgive sins, and thus was claiming to be God. The Jews understood rightly that God alone forgives sins.


Baptism Saves:

(C)
"The Church does not know of any other means other than baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude..." Pg. 320, #1257.

"Through baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, and are incorporated into the Church..." Pg. 312, #1213.

"By baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin." Pg. 321, #1263.

(B) "In whom we have redemption through His (Christ's) blood, the forgiveness of sins.." (Ephesians 1:7)

"...the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7)

"...in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise." (Ephesians 1:13)


The Sacraments Save:

(C) "The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation." Pg. 292, #1129.

"There are seven sacraments in the Church: Baptism, Confirmation or Chrismation, Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony." Pg. 289, #1113.

(B) "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight..." (Romans 3:20)


Mary Saves:

(C) "Taken up into heaven she (Mary) did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation..." Pg. 252, #969.

"Being obedient she (Mary) became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race." Pg. 125, #494.

(B) "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)

"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior." (Isaiah 43:11)

"Yet I am the LORD thy God...there is no savior beside me." (Hosea 13:4)


Mary Sinless:

(C)
"Mary is the most excellent fruit of redemption: from the first instant of her conception, she was totally preserved from the stain of original sin and she remained pure from all personal sin throughout her life." Pg. 128, #508.

(B) "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one." (Romans 3:10)

"They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." (Romans 3:12)

"But the scripture hath concluded all under sin..." (Galatians 3:22)


Mary The Mediator:


(C)
"Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix." Pg. 252, #969.

(B) "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ." (1 Timothy 2:5)

"And for this cause he (Christ) is the mediator of the new testament..." (Hebrews 9:15)

"...He (Jesus) maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." (Romans 8:27)


The Mass:

(C) "In this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the alter of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner." Pg. 344, #1367.

"When the Church celebrates the Eucharist, she commemorates Christ's Passover, and it is made present. As often as the sacrifice of the Cross by which Christ our Pasch has been sacrificed is celebrated on the alter, the work of our redemption is carried out." Pg. 343, #1364.

(B) "...but now once in the end of the world hath He (Jesus) appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself." (Hebrews 9:26)

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (Hebrews 10:10)

"By this man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God." (Hebrews 10:12)


Do Catholics become Christ/God?:

(C) "Let us rejoice ten and give thanks that we have become not only Christians, but Christ himself. Marvel and rejoice; we have become Christ." Pg. 210, #795

"For the Son of man became man so that we might become God." Pg. 116, #460.

"The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods." Pg. 116 "460

(B) "For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." (Matthew 24:5, Luke 21:8, Matthew 24:23)

"...I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me." (Isaiah 46:9)


It is enough to see the teachings of the Catholic Church and the Bible are in direct conflict.


"Then I heard another voice from heaven say: 'Come out of her my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues.' " (Revelation 18:4)
 
Aug 10, 2015
52
0
0
#2
Its fairly evident you hate the Catholic Church. Do you really need another thread?
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#3
Its fairly evident you hate the Catholic Church. Do you really need another thread?
Really? I see facts presented that you may refute if you disagree with them. It is doctrine that he is questioning.

God said Job eschewed evil. Are you saying it is wrong to confront anti-bible doctrine?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Jan 27, 2013
4,769
18
0
#5
its not a religion that needs proof, its the bible. so what is the point. mix and match, proves nothing. when can you answer who god save or dose not save. are you saying the religion is wrong but the bible is fine. so what religion is perfect, given anyone that wrote in the bible , everyone in it was dead.even when the bible went to print, they had to translate it. so religion was free to do there own thing. and that would go for any gentile christian church. belief in a god ,dont change a religion, it changes you. you want to debate 1500 ad, again with the living asking about people who are dead. and started a religion with a bible you use your self, even with the history of how they got the bible. lol
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
1,998
113
#6
its not a religion that needs proof, its the bible. so what is the point. mix and match, proves nothing. when can you answer who god save or dose not save. are you saying the religion is wrong but the bible is fine. so what religion is perfect, given anyone that wrote in the bible , everyone in it was dead.even when the bible went to print, they had to translate it. so religion was free to do there own thing. and that would go for any gentile christian church. belief in a god ,dont change a religion, it changes you. you want to debate 1500 ad, again with the living asking about people who are dead. and started a religion with a bible you use your self, even with the history of how they got the bible. lol


That was one of the most incoherent posts I've ever read.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
3,650
113
#7
An anti Christ system where in this case 'anti' takes on the meaning of 'in place of'.

Hence in the place of Christ, you have another mediator, means of salvation, another ultimate Authority, even another Church.
 
Jan 27, 2013
4,769
18
0
#10
An anti Christ system where in this case 'anti' takes on the meaning of 'in place of'.

Hence in the place of Christ, you have another mediator, means of salvation, another ultimate Authority, even another Church.
system, if rome never gave you the bible, there would be no christian systems. ie church, or sect, if they never took the temple down there would be no torah. in the bible. strange you dont see a foot hold to your own down fall. give your a believer that is.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
3,650
113
#11
system, if rome never gave you the bible, there would be no christian systems. ie church, or sect, if they never took the temple down there would be no torah. in the bible. strange you dont see a foot hold to your own down fall. give your a believer that is.
I'll take a stab at this even though your English is quite limited.

ROME DID NOT GIVE US THE BIBLE. The Jews gave us the Bible, both the OT and the NT. Rome (which was totally different then) only helped confirm what the Jewish writers had already written.
This reminds me of the insideous antisemitism that Rome spread early on with their form of Replacement Theology that they were able to push by calling the Jews "Christ Killers".

Acts 4:26-28 (KJV)
26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,885
26,046
113
#12
its not a religion that needs proof, its the bible. so what is the point. mix and match, proves nothing. when can you answer who god save or dose not save. are you saying the religion is wrong but the bible is fine. so what religion is perfect, given anyone that wrote in the bible , everyone in it was dead.even when the bible went to print, they had to translate it. so religion was free to do there own thing. and that would go for any gentile christian church. belief in a god ,dont change a religion, it changes you. you want to debate 1500 ad, again with the living asking about people who are dead. and started a religion with a bible you use your self, even with the history of how they got the bible. lol
In your view, Jesus is dead?
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
2,943
113
#13
I did not know that Catholics think they become Christ/God! Something new for me.

I wonder if the Mormons got that from the RCC?
 

HQ

Senior Member
Jan 26, 2014
196
6
18
#14
its not a religion that needs proof, its the bible. so what is the point. mix and match, proves nothing. when can you answer who god save or dose not save. are you saying the religion is wrong but the bible is fine. so what religion is perfect, given anyone that wrote in the bible , everyone in it was dead.even when the bible went to print, they had to translate it. so religion was free to do there own thing. and that would go for any gentile christian church. belief in a god ,dont change a religion, it changes you. you want to debate 1500 ad, again with the living asking about people who are dead. and started a religion with a bible you use your self, even with the history of how they got the bible. lol
And yet the Word of God lives on thanks to Greek and Hebrew manuscripts, which have a variance of only 5 percent after thousands of years (and most of the variances are either spelling differences or transliterations).
 
Feb 6, 2015
381
2
0
#16
Once again, what we have with this thread of yours bud, is another gross example of your editing to fuel your anti-Catholic agenda. Your not giving yourself much credence doing so. No, it actually shows the lengths of the malefactor tactics you'll stoop too. If you are going to quote from a official Catholic source, do so in it's entirety. Sheesh.... {rolling eyes}
lets take a look at a couple examples of your grossly deceptive editing tactics, shall we!
Your gross edited version:

Mary Saves:
(C) "Taken up into heaven she (Mary) did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation..." Pg. 252, #969.
And then we have the true unedited version:

Paragraph 6. Mary—Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church.

I. Mary’s Motherhood with Regard to the Church:

969:
"This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."[SUP]512[/SUP][SUP][/SUP][SUP] ([/SUP][SUP]149[/SUP][SUP][/SUP][SUP], [/SUP][SUP]501[/SUP][SUP][/SUP][SUP], [/SUP][SUP]1370[/SUP][SUP][/SUP][SUP])[/SUP]
[SUP]
970:
"Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men... flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."
[/SUP][SUP]513[/SUP][SUP][/SUP][SUP] "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."[/SUP]
[SUP]
and just for your alls informatin......

II. Devotion to the Blessed Virgin

[/SUP][SUP]2673-2679[/SUP][SUP][/SUP][SUP][/SUP]
[SUP]
971:[/SUP]
[SUP]"All generations will call me blessed": "The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."( Lk 1:48; Paul VI, MC 56.)The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs.... This very special devotion... differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration." The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary."

Now if we Catholics are to worship Mary like you say we do, don't you think of all places, the Catechism of the Catholic Church would say so??

Nope.... but it does say..."This very special devotion... differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."
 

And here again we have your gross edited version:

"Being obedient she (Mary) became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race." Pg. 125, #494.
And the true unedited version;

II. ...Born of the Virgin Mary; Paragraph 3:

494
At the announcement that she would give birth to "the Son of the Most High" without knowing man, by the power of the Holy Spirit, Mary responded with the obedience of faith, certain that "with God nothing will be impossible": "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be [done] to me according to your word."(Lk 1:28–38; cf. Rom 1:5.) Thus, giving her consent to God’s word, Mary becomes the mother of Jesus. Espousing the divine will for salvation wholeheartedly, without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and to the work of her Son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with him and dependent on him, by God’s grace:(Cf. LG 56.) (
[/SUP][SUP]2617[/SUP][SUP][/SUP][SUP], [/SUP][SUP]148[/SUP][SUP][/SUP][SUP], [/SUP][SUP]968[/SUP][SUP][/SUP][SUP], [/SUP][SUP]726[/SUP][SUP][/SUP][SUP])"[/SUP]
[SUP]
As St. Irenaeus says, "Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race." Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert... : "The knot of Eve’s disobedience was untied by Mary’s obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith."Comparing her with Eve, they call Mary "the Mother of the living" and frequently claim: "Death through Eve, life through Mary."

So you can very easily see, what you posted was actually nothing more that a quote from St.Irenaeus. {rolling eyes} And the ironic thing of it is.... this is only two examples of your fallicies that I proved to be grossly edited and misleading!!! One can only conclude the rest of your passages from the Catechism of the Catholic Church to be no differnt. Shall we go through them one by one as well? I'm pretty sure sure you would hope not!
 

Pax tecum
[/SUP]
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
#17
Yeah, one most assuredly hates Catholics because one does a comparative open study of Catholic dogma as compared to the bible....NOT! Maybe he loves Catholics, but hates their false teaching as compared to the truth of the word of God.....maybe that is it ya think?

Michael47--->Its fairly evident you hate the Catholic Church. Do you really need another thread?
 
Last edited:
Aug 10, 2015
52
0
0
#18
Yeah, one most assuredly hates Catholics because one does a comparative open study of Catholic dogma as compared to the bible....NOT! Maybe he loves Catholics, but hates their false teaching as compared to the truth of the word of God.....maybe that is it ya think?

Michael47--->Its fairly evident you hate the Catholic Church. Do you really need another thread?
If only that were true. The post above yours shows he is posting parts of the catachism in an attempt, imo, to mislead not disprove
 
J

JoelG

Guest
#19
Hi you all from the other Catholic bashing site.

I got one thing to say to you Catholics, "When in Rome do as the Romans do".
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
3,650
113
#20
If only that were true. The post above yours shows he is posting parts of the catachism in an attempt, imo, to mislead not disprove
I read Fordman's post #47 and it only confirms to me the errors of Rome.