-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
L
There are things to consider. When Jesus died on the cross, in the temple the vale was 'rent in two' taking away the separation between God and man because of Jesus, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Then there is the 3 days and Jesus led captivity captive and the graves were opened and those in Abraham's bosom were freed to go to heaven. All that happened before Pentecost. Is that the proper time table?
Does make one wonder if believers who didn't have the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, they had the sacrifice of Jesus so the payment was made. Your the first other person I've read to bring this subject up.
Good question. Men were not born again before Jesus died on the cross, but were they born again before Pentecost?
I would say they must have been for the new covenant was ushered in when Christ died at Calvary. Being born again stops the licence to sin under the new covenant as Christ died for your sins. So yes, men were born again before pentecost
I would say they must have been for the new covenant was ushered in when Christ died at Calvary. Being born again stops the licence to sin under the new covenant as Christ died for your sins. So yes, men were born again before pentecost
K
The people who died before Christ was crucified were saved the same way as those who die after the crucifixion--by faith. The people of the Old Testament time looked forward to the coming Messiah. They trusted God according to the knowledge that they had as would all people everywhere who were to have faith in God. But we who are alive after the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus and who also have the New Testament documents are at a great advantage. We can read the Scriptures with far more clarity and understanding than those in the Old Testament times. We know about the work of Christ on the cross. Those who died before Jesus never had the opportunity to trust in Him because His crucifixion hadn't happened yet, but they were saved by faith the same as we are.
Salvation includes justification. Justification is a legal standing before God where we are declared righteous before God regarding His holy law. This is possible because Jesus bore our sins in His body on the cross (1 Peter 2:24). When we trust in Christ by faith, His righteousness is reckoned to our account (Philippians 3:9). So, we are justified by faith (Romans 5:1). This is the same as those in the Old Testament. In other words, even though they didn't know about Jesus, they still trusted in God and were also justified by faith.
"What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness," (Romans 4:1-5).
(Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry).. https://carm.org/how-were-people-saved-who-died-before-jesus
Kefa
Salvation includes justification. Justification is a legal standing before God where we are declared righteous before God regarding His holy law. This is possible because Jesus bore our sins in His body on the cross (1 Peter 2:24). When we trust in Christ by faith, His righteousness is reckoned to our account (Philippians 3:9). So, we are justified by faith (Romans 5:1). This is the same as those in the Old Testament. In other words, even though they didn't know about Jesus, they still trusted in God and were also justified by faith.
"What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness," (Romans 4:1-5).
(Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry).. https://carm.org/how-were-people-saved-who-died-before-jesus
Kefa
F
Hebrews 11:13
"All these people died still believing what God had promised them. They did not receive what was promised, but they saw it all from a distance and welcomed it. They agreed that they were foreigners and nomads here on earth."
"All these people died still believing what God had promised them. They did not receive what was promised, but they saw it all from a distance and welcomed it. They agreed that they were foreigners and nomads here on earth."
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Here is the risen Jesus giving the Holy Spirit to those gathered in the upper room. This is before Pentecost and this is the moment they were saved by baptism of the Holy Spirit. Pentecost was a filling of the Holy Spirit for power to minister on that day.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Here is the risen Jesus giving the Holy Spirit to those gathered in the upper room. This is before Pentecost and this is the moment they were saved by baptism of the Holy Spirit. Pentecost was a filling of the Holy Spirit for power to minister on that day.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
K
This is interesting. I would have to say no.
You Must Be Born Again
John 3:1-8 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesusby night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 vThe wind blows wwhere it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
P
That is an excellent point. And we can expand on that point here:
Hebrews 9:23-24
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
The writer contrasts the figure for the time present (the Tabernacle and it's services) with the reality. The blood of the sacrifices of the Priesthood is contrasted with His Own Blood (death). Men only came into God's presence in the Holy of Holies, once a year, and the High Priest only. Thus entrance to God was not granted men in that day.
The writer goes on to say...
Hebrews 10:19-20
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Now just as the veil of the Tabernacle (the writer never mentions the Temple) separated men from the figure (parable) of the presence of God (within the Holy of Holies), Christ's Incarnation is the reality of the veil men must go through to come into God's presence.
Now watch this:
Hebrews 9
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Now look back at 10:19 above: this makes it clear that the Holiest of All was not entered prior to Christ's Sacrifice.
The veil of the Tabernacle represented what Christ would do, and that veil is His flesh. And just as in John 6 Christ taught that the Bread of Heaven was His flesh, and that eternal life was through belief in Him giving His flesh that men might have eternal life, even so here we see that men did not enter into the presence of God prior to the Sacrifice of Christ.
Men were not eternally redeemed prior to the Cross:
Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
What he is saying here is that while men were "saved" by grace through faith in the Old Testament, that did not mean that the sacrifices of the Law redeemed them on an eternal basis. Their security was just as sure as anyone born again in this Age, however, men like Abraham, Moses, and David all died having received only the remission of sins available to them. The last offering for sin they would have offered up before dying would have been an animal, which provided temporal and temporary remission of sins.
In v.15 he state that their transgressions were redeemed by Christ.
Yes. The Old Testament Saints could not enter into God's presence in the Holiest of All, defined by the writer of Hebrews as Heaven itself. Their transgression had to be redeemed.
This is what the writer of Hebrews is speaking of when he states...
Hebrews 11:13
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]39 [/SUP]And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
[SUP]40 [/SUP]God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
The "perfection" in view here simply refers to completion, and is a consistent theme in Hebrews. Christ's Work has made complete that which was incomplete under Law, and a primary issue is remission of sins. As we see in ch.9 completion was brought to the Old Testament Saints when Christ died.
This is true, for the eternal indwelling of the Comforter is a distinct ministry not found in the Old Testament, as Christ teaches here:
John 14:16-17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
As we look into whether men were born again before Pentecost, we are going to see some elements that many may have not considered before. The OP does not ask "Were men saved before Pentecost," but whether they were born again.
And you point out one element that is a necessity in regards to regeneration: one cannot be considered born again if they do not have the Spirit of Christ.
John 14:18
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Isn't that amazing? That this question is not something that is ever talked about?
This is why I ask in the OP to state if it is something one has considered before.
Thanks for the post.
God bless.
Hebrews 9:23-24
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
The writer contrasts the figure for the time present (the Tabernacle and it's services) with the reality. The blood of the sacrifices of the Priesthood is contrasted with His Own Blood (death). Men only came into God's presence in the Holy of Holies, once a year, and the High Priest only. Thus entrance to God was not granted men in that day.
The writer goes on to say...
Hebrews 10:19-20
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Now just as the veil of the Tabernacle (the writer never mentions the Temple) separated men from the figure (parable) of the presence of God (within the Holy of Holies), Christ's Incarnation is the reality of the veil men must go through to come into God's presence.
Now watch this:
Hebrews 9
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Now look back at 10:19 above: this makes it clear that the Holiest of All was not entered prior to Christ's Sacrifice.
The veil of the Tabernacle represented what Christ would do, and that veil is His flesh. And just as in John 6 Christ taught that the Bread of Heaven was His flesh, and that eternal life was through belief in Him giving His flesh that men might have eternal life, even so here we see that men did not enter into the presence of God prior to the Sacrifice of Christ.
Men were not eternally redeemed prior to the Cross:
Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
What he is saying here is that while men were "saved" by grace through faith in the Old Testament, that did not mean that the sacrifices of the Law redeemed them on an eternal basis. Their security was just as sure as anyone born again in this Age, however, men like Abraham, Moses, and David all died having received only the remission of sins available to them. The last offering for sin they would have offered up before dying would have been an animal, which provided temporal and temporary remission of sins.
In v.15 he state that their transgressions were redeemed by Christ.
Yes. The Old Testament Saints could not enter into God's presence in the Holiest of All, defined by the writer of Hebrews as Heaven itself. Their transgression had to be redeemed.
This is what the writer of Hebrews is speaking of when he states...
Hebrews 11:13
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]39 [/SUP]And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
[SUP]40 [/SUP]God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
The "perfection" in view here simply refers to completion, and is a consistent theme in Hebrews. Christ's Work has made complete that which was incomplete under Law, and a primary issue is remission of sins. As we see in ch.9 completion was brought to the Old Testament Saints when Christ died.
This is true, for the eternal indwelling of the Comforter is a distinct ministry not found in the Old Testament, as Christ teaches here:
John 14:16-17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
As we look into whether men were born again before Pentecost, we are going to see some elements that many may have not considered before. The OP does not ask "Were men saved before Pentecost," but whether they were born again.
And you point out one element that is a necessity in regards to regeneration: one cannot be considered born again if they do not have the Spirit of Christ.
John 14:18
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Isn't that amazing? That this question is not something that is ever talked about?
This is why I ask in the OP to state if it is something one has considered before.
Thanks for the post.
God bless.
P
Just for consideration I would ask you whether you believe men can be born again yet not have received the indwelling of the Holy Ghost?
While the Spirit of God came upon people for the purpose of empowering them to ministry, is that the same ministry accomplished by the Comforter, and can we designate when the Comforter came?
God bless.
While the Spirit of God came upon people for the purpose of empowering them to ministry, is that the same ministry accomplished by the Comforter, and can we designate when the Comforter came?
God bless.
In order to be a Christian the Holy Spirit must dwell in you (Rom8:9) It would be correct to use that as the definition of a saved person.
Therefore, at the moment of conversion the Holy Spirit enters your life. However, this should not be confused with what the disciples experienced at Pentecost(what many term the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.) I am sure you would agtree if any of Jesus disciples had died between Christ rising from the dead and Pentecost, they would have died in a saved state.
I think Acts ch8 gives a good example of what I am trying to say. Philip preached to the people in Samaria and many accepted the word and were baptised. At this point they would have been accepted as Christians, but the Pentecost experience had not as yet happened. Scripture says Peter and John went to samaria and prayed with the new believers and then they received what the disciples had at Pentecost.
I believe scripture is very clear, repent, ask Christ the son of God into your life as Lord and saviour of it, and you are saved at that point. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit(your Pentecost moment if you like and are willing to accept it) does not bring salvation, for that has already been given. When the text states in Acts 8 they received the Holy Spirit therefore, I believe it correct to assume it means they received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. It is the only way for scripture to fit in my view
Therefore, at the moment of conversion the Holy Spirit enters your life. However, this should not be confused with what the disciples experienced at Pentecost(what many term the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.) I am sure you would agtree if any of Jesus disciples had died between Christ rising from the dead and Pentecost, they would have died in a saved state.
I think Acts ch8 gives a good example of what I am trying to say. Philip preached to the people in Samaria and many accepted the word and were baptised. At this point they would have been accepted as Christians, but the Pentecost experience had not as yet happened. Scripture says Peter and John went to samaria and prayed with the new believers and then they received what the disciples had at Pentecost.
I believe scripture is very clear, repent, ask Christ the son of God into your life as Lord and saviour of it, and you are saved at that point. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit(your Pentecost moment if you like and are willing to accept it) does not bring salvation, for that has already been given. When the text states in Acts 8 they received the Holy Spirit therefore, I believe it correct to assume it means they received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. It is the only way for scripture to fit in my view
P
Hello Kefa, and thanks for the participation.
I will ask a question that might help us to bring a more pointed focus to the issue at hand: how are men born again?
I will say that my view takes the position that men are born again through belief in the Risen Christ. Confession of Jesus as the Christ, the Son of the Living God is what Christ said He would build His Church upon, right?
So when did men begin to believe in Christ and His Resurrection?
Let me show you a few fellows that had a little trouble believing. Peter, who declared Jesus the Christ, the Son of the living God (Matthew 16:13-18) would immediately after this declaration, which Christ stated was divinely revealed (not concluded from the intellect of Peter)...rebuke the Lord for declaring the very Gospel of Christ:
Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)[SUP]20 [/SUP]Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Would we say Peter is born again here?
And we know Peter would try to keep Christ from the Cross in the Garden of Gethsemane, taking up the sword, and then deny he even knew the Lord as he sat at the fire, but how about after the Resurrection?
Luke 24:6-11
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And they remembered his words,
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.
We have Christ rebuking them Himself...for not believing He had risen from the dead:
Mark 16:9-11
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
Mark 16:12-14
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
So we ask...were the disciples born again believers when we can see that at this point they rejected Christ's Resurrection itself?
The answer is no, and while these disciples were "saved" from an eternal perspective, they were yet to be Baptized by Christ with the Holy Ghost:
Acts 1
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
And when we balance the events prior to Pentecost with those after, as well as recognize Paul's teaching that the Gospel of Christ was a Mystery not revealed prior to this Age, we see that the disciples did not understand the Gospel even after Christ's Resurrection. In v.6 we still see a carnal mentality displayed by Peter in his attempts to keep Christ from the Cross. Israel did indeed have expectation of redemption through Messiah, but they looked for a physical descendent of David who would restore Israel to her former glory, and, like Peter attempted to do, remove oppression with the sword. Well, Prophecy does say that will happen, but this was not the time of that fulfillment of that Prophecy. They were not aware of their need for salvation from sin, but, when the Comforter came, He convicted even the disciples of sin, righteousness, and judgment.
Regeneration does not take place apart from the eternal indwelling of God, as Paul teaches here:
Titus 3:4-5
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
We are cleansed by regeneration (new birth) and reconciled to God through the renewing of that which was lost in Adam, that is...union with God on a spiritual level. That relationship is what is renewed, God reconciling man to Himself through Christ.
God bless.
I will ask a question that might help us to bring a more pointed focus to the issue at hand: how are men born again?
I will say that my view takes the position that men are born again through belief in the Risen Christ. Confession of Jesus as the Christ, the Son of the Living God is what Christ said He would build His Church upon, right?
So when did men begin to believe in Christ and His Resurrection?
Let me show you a few fellows that had a little trouble believing. Peter, who declared Jesus the Christ, the Son of the living God (Matthew 16:13-18) would immediately after this declaration, which Christ stated was divinely revealed (not concluded from the intellect of Peter)...rebuke the Lord for declaring the very Gospel of Christ:
Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)[SUP]20 [/SUP]Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Would we say Peter is born again here?
And we know Peter would try to keep Christ from the Cross in the Garden of Gethsemane, taking up the sword, and then deny he even knew the Lord as he sat at the fire, but how about after the Resurrection?
Luke 24:6-11
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And they remembered his words,
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.
We have Christ rebuking them Himself...for not believing He had risen from the dead:
Mark 16:9-11
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
Mark 16:12-14
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
So we ask...were the disciples born again believers when we can see that at this point they rejected Christ's Resurrection itself?
The answer is no, and while these disciples were "saved" from an eternal perspective, they were yet to be Baptized by Christ with the Holy Ghost:
Acts 1
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
And when we balance the events prior to Pentecost with those after, as well as recognize Paul's teaching that the Gospel of Christ was a Mystery not revealed prior to this Age, we see that the disciples did not understand the Gospel even after Christ's Resurrection. In v.6 we still see a carnal mentality displayed by Peter in his attempts to keep Christ from the Cross. Israel did indeed have expectation of redemption through Messiah, but they looked for a physical descendent of David who would restore Israel to her former glory, and, like Peter attempted to do, remove oppression with the sword. Well, Prophecy does say that will happen, but this was not the time of that fulfillment of that Prophecy. They were not aware of their need for salvation from sin, but, when the Comforter came, He convicted even the disciples of sin, righteousness, and judgment.
Regeneration does not take place apart from the eternal indwelling of God, as Paul teaches here:
Titus 3:4-5
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
We are cleansed by regeneration (new birth) and reconciled to God through the renewing of that which was lost in Adam, that is...union with God on a spiritual level. That relationship is what is renewed, God reconciling man to Himself through Christ.
God bless.
P
We have to remember that a promise is still only promise until it is received.
Let's look at a clearer statement in regards to New Birth in Ezekiel:
Ezekiel 36:22-27
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
The promise looks to the Church Age as well as the final fulfillment in the Millennial Kingdom.
Verse 27 is a reference to the eternal indwelling of God which began on Pentecost.
God bless.
Let's look at a clearer statement in regards to New Birth in Ezekiel:
Ezekiel 36:22-27
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
The promise looks to the Church Age as well as the final fulfillment in the Millennial Kingdom.
Verse 27 is a reference to the eternal indwelling of God which began on Pentecost.
God bless.