Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

crossnote · Oct 23, 2015

Solid Scriptural proof one way or the other is scanty.
I tend to believe not.
Nicodemus didn’t know but was expected to.
I go with passages such as...

1 Corinthians 2:9-14 (KJV)
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

This type of talk was absent in the OT.

P1LGR1M · Oct 23, 2015

notuptome said:

Hello Roger, and thanks for the point.

While it sounds reasonable, we can say without controversy that this is not the Disciples receiving the Holy Ghost, for He had not yet come.

First, we know that the Comforter could not come until Christ had returned to Heaven from whence He came:

John 16:7

King James Version (KJV)[SUP]7 [/SUP]Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

The departure here is not His death, but His return to Heaven.

On the Day of His Ascension the disciples had not yet been Baptized with the Holy Ghost, for they had not received Him yet:

Acts 1

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Now consider that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is not many days after the Ascension, but...it is after the Ascension.

The view that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is simply the empowering of the Holy Ghost after salvation, a subsequent work of the Spirit in our lives, cannot be borne out from the text and other passages which clarify that salvation is accomplished when we are Baptized into Christ.

When we consider the empowering of the Holy Spirit that is described as being filled. Here, we see the teaching of Christ in John 14 and 16 being fulfilled, and it will be several days after He ascends.

So we define the Baptism with the Holy Ghost with the teachings of Christ. That Baptism is the Baptism which is three times contrasted with John the Baptist's baptism.

Consider:

Matthew 3:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The Baptisms in view (with Spirit and with fire) have One Baptizer, and that is Christ. The Baptism with Spirit is referred to in v.12 as the gathering of wheat, which speaks of eternal salvation, and the baptism with fire refers to eternal judgment (with terminology familiar in numerous teachings concerning eternal judgment, that is, being burned up).

So we have to figure out exactly what the Lord means when He breathes on them and states "Receive ye the Holy Ghost."

And that is simple enough to do: it is a command to do something in the future, just as we see several commands.

And what I will draw your attention to is the fact that it will not be until they do receive the Holy Ghost that they will obey another command they are given before the Lord's departure:

Matthew 28:18-20

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

[SUP]20 [/SUP]Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Now, were the disciples going out and preaching the Gospel while Christ yet remained with them?

We know they were not:

Acts 1

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

The "Holy Ghost coming upon them" is synonymous with the Baptism with the Holy Ghost. We know both refer to His teachings concerning the Comforter, and the Comforter's coming did not precede Christ's return to Heaven.

Here is another command they were given which they did not fulfill while the Lord remained with them:

John 15

King James Version (KJV)

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Did the Disciples abide in Christ?

Not according to the Lord:

John 16:28-32

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]28 [/SUP]I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

[SUP]30 [/SUP]Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

[SUP]31 [/SUP]Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

[SUP]32 [/SUP]Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

The command to abide, just as the command to go unto all nations and witness for Christ...were not obeyed at this time, because it was dependent on them receiving the Holy Ghost, Who is the One who has revealed the Gospel to all men beginning at Pentecost.

Paul writes of this here, though this passage is usually taught to refer to how wonderful Heaven will be:

1 Corinthians 2:4-10

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

The Gospel was yet a mystery to the Disciples until Pentecost.

God bless.

notuptome · Oct 23, 2015

P1LGR1M said:

Jesus said directly for them to receive the Holy Spirit as He breathed Him upon them.

You confuse receiving the Holy Spirit and being born again with Pentecost where they were filled or endued with power as illustrated by the presence of the cloven fire upon their heads.

When God created man from the dust of the earth God breathed into man the breath of life. When the risen Savior breathed upon the disciples in the upper room He breathed into them the Spirit of eternal life.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

P1LGR1M · Oct 23, 2015

MarcR said:

I once had a Pastor ask me if it was a trick question, lol. He thought I was asking if men were saved, but the question is were men born again, and I would agree with you...the eternal indwelling is integral to new birth, because we are made new creatures by that indwelling. It is the re-union of God and man which was lost in the Garden.

We know that eternal life comes through specific belief in the Risen Christ, and Christ taught that unless we believed we have no life:

John 6:47-51

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]47 [/SUP]Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

[SUP]48 [/SUP]I am that bread of life.

[SUP]49 [/SUP]Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

[SUP]50 [/SUP]This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

[SUP]51 [/SUP]I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

What He is saying here is that eternal life would be through His death. The Bread from Heaven (Himself) is contrasted with the physical provision in the Wilderness, and the Lord makes it clear that the life He came to bring differs from that provision.

So we can see that eternal life has a point in time at which it becomes available to men, and that is when the Bread of Life, Jesus the Son of God...came from Heaven.

And prior to that men did not have eternal life.

He goes on to reiterate this point:

John 6:53-56

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]53 [/SUP]Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

[SUP]54 [/SUP]Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

[SUP]55 [/SUP]For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

[SUP]56 [/SUP]He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

The Lord defines "eating His flesh and drinking His blood" as the very life He would give for the World...His own. And the only way for one to eat of His flesh and drink of His blood is to believe on the Risen Savior, Who died that He might take away the sins of the world (and this does not mean Universalism is supported by the Lord's teaching here, only those that believe on Him will receive the Atonement).

And we see something else which is designated to the future, which is the indwelling of Christ, which is synonymous with the indwelling of the Father and the Spirit.

This is also something the Lord taught in John 14:

John 14:23

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

We cannot separate the indwelling of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost for we are indwelt of God. And we see that this is a future event which will take place after Christ returns to Heaven and sends the Comforter.

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Oct 23, 2015

notuptome said:

And as I stated in my response we know that this was not the Coming of the Comforter at which time they would be indwelt eternally by God.

That did not take place until after Christ returned to Heaven.

notuptome said:

The New Birth is the result of the eternal indwelling of God.

We become that which we were not when we were born...in union with God. All men are born separated from God, and it is not until Pentecost that this is remedied.

If they received the Comforter and eternal indwelling when Christ spoke directly to them, then there is a conflict in His teachings...

John 16:7

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

So we can say dogmatically that what Christ is teaching in John 14-16 is referring to after His Ascension.

The Baptism with the Holy Ghost is that event through which we are baptized into the Body of Christ, thus becoming one with Him.

The Baptism with the Holy Ghost is not simply an empowerment that is subsequent to salvation, but is in fact salvation itself, as we are reconciled to God in spiritual union.

notuptome said:

I agree with the first statement, for God did create Adam and breathed the breath of life into Him. Adam was born in spiritual relationship with God, and when he sinned...he died. All men are now born dead spiritually, meaning they are not in relationship to God, but separated from Him. That is why Christ states men are already condemned if they believe not.

And this is not something I can convince you of, you will have to reconcile the conflict you raise in Scripture by saying Christ gave them the Spirit at this time when He taught this would not happen until after he left. Many feel the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is a subsequent event, I do not. I have presented the reasons why in the posts above, and specifically in the response you received, so all I can say is address the points made and show me my error. Show how they received that which the Lord states clearly will not occur until after He returns to Heaven.

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Oct 23, 2015

dcontroversal said:

Pentecost can be viewed as an "empowering," but that empowering is the result of receiving the Spirit of God.

Consider:

Acts 2:33

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]33 [/SUP]Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

That which is "shed forth" is the Holy Ghost. Peter is not saying that Christ received Him, but that He sent Him.

And we don't see this until Pentecost.

God bless.

crossnote · Oct 23, 2015

That is a bit awkwardly stated. Care to clarify since even Jesus said Abraham saw His day, and Moses and Elijah appeared on the Mount etc?

notuptome · Oct 23, 2015

P1LGR1M said:

You negate John 20. You are simply incorrect. Christ resurrected bodily and brought the Holy Spirit with Him. Christ ministered to His disciples He told them to wait until they received power not to wait to be saved.

It appears that you have a faulty knowledge of what it is to be born again. Probably stemming from a faulty knowledge of baptism of the Holy Spirit.

This is an obvious error. You confuse the words baptize with the Holy Spirit with the filling of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit indeed must baptize us as Titus states washing us and renewing us through the Holy Spirit.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

This is different from Acts where we see a filling of the Holy Spirit.

Ac 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Ac 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
Ac 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

Your theology is the conflict not the scriptures for they are clear.

Jesus made clear that power would be supplied after He ascended. Power which they had seen when Jesus sent them out in Matthew 10

Mat 10:5 ¶ These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.

You are quite correct that you will not convince me of your error as the scriptures clearly reveal.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

P1LGR1M · Oct 23, 2015

crossnote said:

Be glad to: there is a difference between our having the life which is spiritual that means the spirits of men will never cease to exist, and the eternal life Christ bestowed through His Work.

Consider that the lost will raised from the dead just as believers will, but do they have eternal life?

So we have people prior to the Cross that are still in existence yet there are obviously two groups. The saved, and the lost. Moses and Elijah were of the saved, yet do we ascribe eternal life to these men?

Consider:

Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

What this means is that Moses and Elijah died without having their sins atoned for. And when we cross reference this with Christ's teaching in John 6, where the "fathers" who were dead would have included Moses (for this was a primary Hebrew Father), we see that eternal life is dependent upon the Atonement.

While it is a popular view that the Old Testament Saints were "saved on credit," the truth is...no, they weren't. They were saved by grace through faith just like we are, but, they died still in need of the Cross.

Because of this it is my view that men did not go into the Holiest of All, Heaven, when they died, but as Christ teaches in Luke 16 they went to sheol/hades. It is the time of the Cross where those saints were liberated from sheol/hades, and at that point, their sins being forgiven, they were taken into Heaven.

So while we could say they had eternal life, even as we can say that the lost have "eternal life," in view is the eternal life which results from faith in the death of Christ, rather than simply the unending existence of a spirit.

It is better to say they were not "eternally redeemed," but, as noted, we would not say of the wicked that because they have an unending existence they have eternal "life."

We could say they had "eternal life" from a perspective of Election, but, just as we were not partakers of eternal life before we were forgiven and made one with God, I think we should also be careful not to overlook the importance of redemption in Christ. If we impose into the Old Testament that which was only promised, then we inadvertently diminish the magnitude of the Atonement/Reconciliation that Christ accomplished in His Work.

So I see that even men like Moses and Elijah were separated from God in the eternal perspective when they died. Most will say "But Elijah was carried into Heaven" to which I would ask, is that Heaven...or the heaven?

Same thing with Enoch.

Christ does not portray the Rich Man and Lazarus as going to Heaven, and when we factor in all relevant teachings we understand that the Life Christ came to bestow on those that would trust in Him as Risen Savior was not bestowed prior to the Incarnation.

Hope that makes sense. In a bit of a rush so have to leave it at that for now.

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Oct 23, 2015

notuptome said:

You negate John 20. You are simply incorrect. Christ resurrected bodily and brought the Holy Spirit with Him. Christ ministered to His disciples He told them to wait until they received power not to wait to be saved.

It appears that you have a faulty knowledge of what it is to be born again. Probably stemming from a faulty knowledge of baptism of the Holy Spirit.

This is an obvious error. You confuse the words baptize with the Holy Spirit with the filling of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit indeed must baptize us as Titus states washing us and renewing us through the Holy Spirit.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

This is different from Acts where we see a filling of the Holy Spirit.

Ac 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Ac 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
Ac 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

Your theology is the conflict not the scriptures for they are clear.

Jesus made clear that power would be supplied after He ascended. Power which they had seen when Jesus sent them out in Matthew 10

Mat 10:5 ¶ These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.

You are quite correct that you will not convince me of your error as the scriptures clearly reveal.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

And that is pretty clear. So you are welcome to take the position you take, which again...denies some pretty basic truths.

If you notice in the proof-text that you provided...the disciples were commanded not to go unto the Samaritans and Gentiles.

Now reconcile how they were preaching the Gospel of Christ but were only to preach this Gospel to Israel?

This is the empowering that the Holy Ghost has always performed in the lives of men, it is not the Coming of the Comforter as taught in John 14-16.

Not one of the disciples believed that Christ had risen from the grave. Hence...

...they did not believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

And have to get going, so check back when I can.

God bless.

crossnote · Oct 23, 2015

P1LGR1M said:

Be glad to: there is a difference between our having the life which is spiritual that means the spirits of men will never cease to exist, and the eternal life Christ bestowed through His Work.

Consider that the lost will raised from the dead just as believers will, but do they have eternal life?

So we have people prior to the Cross that are still in existence yet there are obviously two groups. The saved, and the lost. Moses and Elijah were of the saved, yet do we ascribe eternal life to these men?

Consider:

Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

What this means is that Moses and Elijah died without having their sins atoned for. And when we cross reference this with Christ's teaching in John 6, where the "fathers" who were dead would have included Moses (for this was a primary Hebrew Father), we see that eternal life is dependent upon the Atonement.

While it is a popular view that the Old Testament Saints were "saved on credit," the truth is...no, they weren't. They were saved by grace through faith just like we are, but, they died still in need of the Cross.

Because of this it is my view that men did not go into the Holiest of All, Heaven, when they died, but as Christ teaches in Luke 16 they went to sheol/hades. It is the time of the Cross where those saints were liberated from sheol/hades, and at that point, their sins being forgiven, they were taken into Heaven.

So while we could say they had eternal life, even as we can say that the lost have "eternal life," in view is the eternal life which results from faith in the death of Christ, rather than simply the unending existence of a spirit.

It is better to say they were not "eternally redeemed," but, as noted, we would not say of the wicked that because they have an unending existence they have eternal "life."

We could say they had "eternal life" from a perspective of Election, but, just as we were not partakers of eternal life before we were forgiven and made one with God, I think we should also be careful not to overlook the importance of redemption in Christ. If we impose into the Old Testament that which was only promised, then we inadvertently diminish the magnitude of the Atonement/Reconciliation that Christ accomplished in His Work.

So I see that even men like Moses and Elijah were separated from God in the eternal perspective when they died. Most will say "But Elijah was carried into Heaven" to which I would ask, is that Heaven...or the heaven?

Same thing with Enoch.

Christ does not portray the Rich Man and Lazarus as going to Heaven, and when we factor in all relevant teachings we understand that the Life Christ came to bestow on those that would trust in Him as Risen Savior was not bestowed prior to the Incarnation.

Hope that makes sense. In a bit of a rush so have to leave it at that for now.

God bless.

FWIW, I work best with short one or two paragraph responses.

I take the work of the Cross to be an eternal work in it's affects both to future sins as well as past, thus imparting eternal life to those believers who had gone before the Cross as well.

P1LGR1M · Oct 23, 2015

crossnote said:

I can appreciate that, but it is doubtful that the discussion can get too in-depth with short posts. There are just a lot of passages which have to be addressed in order to examine issues like these, and we are getting ready to leave town tomorrow so I prefer to get in enough for consideration. I will only have a tablet which hinders the ability to quote Scripture as I do in my posts.

To each his own, right?

What you could do, if you wanted to, is just address each point at a time.

crossnote said:

Did you have eternal life before your sins were forgiven, Crossnote?

God bless.

Gr8grace · Oct 23, 2015

P1LGR1M said:

No.They were saved by faith alone in Christ. But nobody was Born-again until Christ ascended and was glorified. Pentecost, and the baptism of the Spirit,the new creation,sealed, indwelling of God,,,,,Father ,Son and holy spirit.

Old testament saints and believers up to pentecost had the Holy Spirit UPON them. The indwelling and new creation in Christ came at His Glorification.........operation footstool.

crossnote · Oct 23, 2015

P1LGR1M said:

hehe, no, I was talking about believers in the ot, they had eternal life. Of course I was lost, heading for hell before I believed.

BTW, Some of the deepest truths are found in John's writings, yet they were in short paragraphs, not long tomes (tombs)

notuptome · Oct 23, 2015

P1LGR1M said:

f only you knew how ridiculous you sound. They had the risen Christ standing in their midst. Of course they believed. They were given the Holy Spirit so their understanding would be opened. They were then able to put all the pieces together.

You are apparently locked into a Holy Spirit baptism that involves external demonstrations to have salvation. Tis not so.

God speaks in the still small voice. No drama just a wonderful change in the heart.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

P1LGR1M · Oct 23, 2015

notuptome said:

Here are you believers, my friend:

Luke 24

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?

[SUP]6 [/SUP]He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And they remembered his words,

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.

Mark 16:9-14

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

There is drama here, but it is taken straight from Scripture.

And it is because these believers had not been Baptized with the Spirit that they were not able to believe.

One last verse:

Luke 22:31-34

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

[SUP]32 [/SUP]But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

[SUP]33 [/SUP]And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.

[SUP]34 [/SUP]And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

Peter would not risk his life for the Lord, but would deny he even knew Christ, cursing with adamant desperation and drama that he did not know the Man.

Peter was not a born again believer. He was a believer, but, until his conversion he was an Old Testament/Covenant Saint, not a New Covenant born again believer.

God bless.

notuptome · Oct 23, 2015

P1LGR1M said:

Here are you believers, my friend:

Luke 24

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?

[SUP]6 [/SUP]He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And they remembered his words,

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.

Mark 16:9-14

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

There is drama here, but it is taken straight from Scripture.

And it is because these believers had not been Baptized with the Spirit that they were not able to believe.

One last verse:

Luke 22:31-34

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

[SUP]32 [/SUP]But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

[SUP]33 [/SUP]And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.

[SUP]34 [/SUP]And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

Peter would not risk his life for the Lord, but would deny he even knew Christ, cursing with adamant desperation and drama that he did not know the Man.

Peter was not a born again believer. He was a believer, but, until his conversion he was an Old Testament/Covenant Saint, not a New Covenant born again believer.

God bless.

You continue to dig the hole deeper. You ignore the timeline. Yes at the tomb they had not yet believed that Jesus was the Messiah. They doubted but they wanted to believe. In John 20 Jesus has now presented Himself to them in His resurrected body and He gives them the Holy Spirit and they have their understanding opened.

What is your real motivation for this obtuse discourse? You are attempting to guide this somewhere but not into the truth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

P1LGR1M · Oct 23, 2015

crossnote said:

Sorry, but two things, make that three, lol: first, this is not long (you should see me when I am really long-winded, lol); second, they could be called tombs, because within is the death of certain doctrines, lol; and third, I am going out of town and will not have access, so there is plenty here for anyone that desires to pick apart, lol.

This issue will never be understood in casual chats, and sometimes it is necessary to provide some cross referencing which adds to the length. I feel confident that at the very least, the posts give a start to a discussion where the singular points can be threshed out.

Okay, never said I was good at geography, but this will be the fourth and final point (lol): you are correct, you did not have eternal life, nor could be said to be eternally redeemed until you responded to God and placed your faith in Christ. Prior to that, you were still in need of having your transgressions redeemed through the Blood of Christ (His death).

And that is the same thing we see in regards to the Old Testament Saints, who were made perfect when Christ died, and are distinguished from the Church here:

Hebrews 12:22-24

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

[SUP]23 [/SUP]To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

[SUP]24 [/SUP]And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

The Book of Hebrews helps us to understand that it was a necessity that sins be redeemed by something better than animal death. The penalty for sin is death, and that penalty could only be removed by Christ dying in the sinner's stead. And until He did that, the Old Testament Saints awaited their perfection:

Hebrews 11:13

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]13 [/SUP]These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

[SUP]39 [/SUP]And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

[SUP]40 [/SUP]God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

So just as you do not impose a status of being eternally redeemed and forgiven of sins prior to your conversion, even so the Old Testament Saints were not. They were just as saved as you and I, and from an eternal perspective of Election there was never a chance their eternal fate would be otherwise, but, until they were forgiven, they awaited eternal redemption.

Luke 24:20-21

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

We can see that at least some of them understood that Israel needed to be redeemed, and that is what Christ did on an eternal basis for those who would come to believe on His Name, and what He will do on a temporal basis in the Millennial Kingdom.

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Oct 23, 2015

notuptome said:

You continue to dig the hole deeper. You ignore the timeline. Yes at the tomb they had not yet believed that Jesus was the Messiah. They doubted but they wanted to believe. In John 20 Jesus has now presented Himself to them in His resurrected body and He gives them the Holy Spirit and they have their understanding opened.

What is your real motivation for this obtuse discourse? You are attempting to guide this somewhere but not into the truth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Have a great day, notuptome.

God bless.

ladylynn · Oct 23, 2015

PILGRIM, Wow, your posts are very informative., Thank you!! There was a major difference for every human being BEFORE Jesus actually died on the cross and the veil was ripped in two and AFTER that event. I've always heard that everyone is saved the same way before Jesus died on the cross just the same as after. But as you posted, they WAITED for the promise... We today have it under the grace covenant since we are not under the covenant of law as they were. There is a distinction of covenants and their requirements. I'm still trying to understand the details but that fact I do know now.

Many Christians do not accept that Abraham's bosom was an actual holding place where the OT saints stayed until Jesus finished His work of redemption. Or that Lazarus was an actual real person along with the rich man. How they were in a gulf-FIXED and neither could go from one place to the other. Yet they had an awareness. But it had to be since as you pointed out in Scripture and we all know that there WAS a very heavy woven metal curtain separating the people from the Holy of Holies. And only the priest could go in FOR the people. And only God could have ripped that thing in half. (and it's shocking that they went and sewed it back together again later!!! wanting to be under the law)

I'm not sure all of what that priest was doing in there but he was the one who went in on behalf of the people and made the sacrifices for a year. But then sacrifices were made daily so lots of blood was shed all the time. I'm still learning about the pictures of how it shows what Jesus did for us by all the details of what the priest had to do. But the Bible clearly states that that veil was rent in two EXACTLY when Jesus died. Something MAJOR happened.

I'm very interested in this thread to learn more on the subject. Thanks for starting it. Blessings!

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