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I am not sure from the wording that the full period was observed in terms of no work but if I'm not mistaken the Israelites typically observed them in Jerusalem anyways. I know the high days were Sabbaths in terms of work. The group I was associated with took the whole period off, but I believe some of the newer members only attended the high Sabbaths at the closest location.
One interesting question I would have in relation to this subject is whether the Israelites observed the Sabbath and the Holy Days when in exile. Somehow I doubt it. I doubt their captors would have allowed them that, and in addition I don't think they could observe the holy days as they were observed in Israel at a designated location. That is not to say that I disapprove of their observance in a limited sense, but I don't think they can really be observed in an Old Covenant sense today, even if the Old Covenant was applicable. I imagine I will get heated arguments over that though, but I think my position is solid.
It seems as though the Old Covenant was for a specific group of people in a specific place during a specific time frame. Like I said, though, I don't disapprove of someone commemorating redemptive events through those days..it's the individual's choice. It's more the divisive attitudes of some observers that I disagree with.
One interesting question I would have in relation to this subject is whether the Israelites observed the Sabbath and the Holy Days when in exile. Somehow I doubt it. I doubt their captors would have allowed them that, and in addition I don't think they could observe the holy days as they were observed in Israel at a designated location. That is not to say that I disapprove of their observance in a limited sense, but I don't think they can really be observed in an Old Covenant sense today, even if the Old Covenant was applicable. I imagine I will get heated arguments over that though, but I think my position is solid.
It seems as though the Old Covenant was for a specific group of people in a specific place during a specific time frame. Like I said, though, I don't disapprove of someone commemorating redemptive events through those days..it's the individual's choice. It's more the divisive attitudes of some observers that I disagree with.
Point of interest: God never told Israel where to celebrate them. Jerusalem wasn't even in the picture for the original commands.
We had about 60 people camping out the entire 8 days. Some had to go to work throughout the week but came back each night, some came throughout the day when they could, and some camped out only a day or 2.
We had about 60 people camping out the entire 8 days. Some had to go to work throughout the week but came back each night, some came throughout the day when they could, and some camped out only a day or 2.
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Actually you are right...not specifically Jerusalem but in the place God told them to:
Deuteronomy 16:16 “Three times a year all your males shall appear before the LORD your God at the place that he will choose: at the Feast of Unleavened Bread, at the Feast of Weeks, and at the Feast of Booths. They shall not appear before the LORD empty-handed.
Assuming that keeping the festivals is part of the current expectations of God, how does he communicate where to keep them?
In Armstrongism, the church decided where they were to be kept. However, how do they derive their authority to speak for God? Or, how does any other organization derive that authority?
Just to make sure it's clear, the Old Covenant isn't in effect anyways but I am wondering how modern day observers reconcile this if they claim it is.
I don't have any issues with individuals who observe these days of their own preference, so it's an irrelevant question for them. This question would only be relevant if someone claims it is a requirement or condition or necessary fruit of salvation. I can see some value in the observances otherwise for commemorative purposes.
I also strongly doubt that Israelites during the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities observed such things. I'd like to see biblical proof if they did. I believe the observances are liked to the Covenant, which is linked to a specific people (Israelites) during a specific time frame (from Moses to Jesus Christ per Galatians 3) in a specific location (Palestine).
Israel was also a theonomy which could be controlled. How is this relevant? If a slave with a Gentile master in the New Testament church was saved, and his Gentile master was not, couldn't you see where that would create an issue if the slave was not allowed by his master to observe such days?
My guess is that Sabbathkeepers who claim it is a requirement would say the slave should simply disobey and forfeit his life. If this is true, why don't we read about this happening in the epistles, or instruction being given in any way regarding this? Also, why is Sabbath-breaking never mentioned in the sin lists of the Gentiles? These are things I had to ask myself as a former Sabbath or festival observer who thought it was a requirement or condition or necessary proof of salvation (which most here probably do not).
I'd like to see someone in the Arctic circle observing the Feast of Tabernacles living in a Sukkot for eight days as the Old Covenant required. I'd also like to see Sabbathkeepers observing the Sabbath in lands where days and nights can last months due to their location near the poles.
Know what Ellen G. White did about such things? She legislated that people couldn't live in those areas
Deuteronomy 16:16 “Three times a year all your males shall appear before the LORD your God at the place that he will choose: at the Feast of Unleavened Bread, at the Feast of Weeks, and at the Feast of Booths. They shall not appear before the LORD empty-handed.
Assuming that keeping the festivals is part of the current expectations of God, how does he communicate where to keep them?
In Armstrongism, the church decided where they were to be kept. However, how do they derive their authority to speak for God? Or, how does any other organization derive that authority?
Just to make sure it's clear, the Old Covenant isn't in effect anyways but I am wondering how modern day observers reconcile this if they claim it is.
I don't have any issues with individuals who observe these days of their own preference, so it's an irrelevant question for them. This question would only be relevant if someone claims it is a requirement or condition or necessary fruit of salvation. I can see some value in the observances otherwise for commemorative purposes.
I also strongly doubt that Israelites during the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities observed such things. I'd like to see biblical proof if they did. I believe the observances are liked to the Covenant, which is linked to a specific people (Israelites) during a specific time frame (from Moses to Jesus Christ per Galatians 3) in a specific location (Palestine).
Israel was also a theonomy which could be controlled. How is this relevant? If a slave with a Gentile master in the New Testament church was saved, and his Gentile master was not, couldn't you see where that would create an issue if the slave was not allowed by his master to observe such days?
My guess is that Sabbathkeepers who claim it is a requirement would say the slave should simply disobey and forfeit his life. If this is true, why don't we read about this happening in the epistles, or instruction being given in any way regarding this? Also, why is Sabbath-breaking never mentioned in the sin lists of the Gentiles? These are things I had to ask myself as a former Sabbath or festival observer who thought it was a requirement or condition or necessary proof of salvation (which most here probably do not).
I'd like to see someone in the Arctic circle observing the Feast of Tabernacles living in a Sukkot for eight days as the Old Covenant required. I'd also like to see Sabbathkeepers observing the Sabbath in lands where days and nights can last months due to their location near the poles.
Know what Ellen G. White did about such things? She legislated that people couldn't live in those areas
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Settle all in understanding the teaching of Jesus Christ, Yeshua, and you will not develp carpal tunnel posting on this theme.
You are invited by Jesus Christ to learn from Him, so do it.
There is nothing inherently wrong with recognizing the Seventh Day is a gift from God to all, but there is in teaching against it. Pray about it. It is not some deep philosophy of mankind that is unsearchable. It really is quite simple.
As a matter of fact, learn all about how to be obedient directly from Jesus Christ..we are now children of obedience, are we not?
You are invited by Jesus Christ to learn from Him, so do it.
There is nothing inherently wrong with recognizing the Seventh Day is a gift from God to all, but there is in teaching against it. Pray about it. It is not some deep philosophy of mankind that is unsearchable. It really is quite simple.
As a matter of fact, learn all about how to be obedient directly from Jesus Christ..we are now children of obedience, are we not?
How do you go about dealing with the law lawfully, as is mentioned in the Epistles?
According to Ephesians, and other books, we are become children of obedience. Thus we obey Jesus Christ's teachings according to how it is given us to understand, hence, the teaching of allowing all brethren to obeserve the Sabbath and other days as they see fit with a good conscience in the sight of God?
I would never tell another he must observe the Seventh Day as I do, but I will share with all that the Seventh Day is a gift fromt he Father for all to enjoy. It is a gift, whether one chooses to receive it or not is entirely up to him. I choose to receive any gift from Jesus Christ.
Do not judge another's slave, for they are only permitted to act as
they are given to understand. To label all who observe the Sabbath on the Seventh day as legalistic and hypocritical is a bit harsh I would dare say.
I hope you do not assume I am not a brother in Christ because I love the Seventh Day? Or because I do my best to obey God in the Example and teaching of the Master? In the heart of my heart I believe the majority of people labeled as legalists are more of my own persuasion that that of being legalistic. I never see the majority of these folks judging those who think that all the law is obsolete. It is like condemning a brother because he does not dress just like you do, after all, our good works are our wedding garment, and not all wedding garments appear the same, yet they are wedding garments.
praise God always, and love the family in Jesus Christ, amen.
According to Ephesians, and other books, we are become children of obedience. Thus we obey Jesus Christ's teachings according to how it is given us to understand, hence, the teaching of allowing all brethren to obeserve the Sabbath and other days as they see fit with a good conscience in the sight of God?
I would never tell another he must observe the Seventh Day as I do, but I will share with all that the Seventh Day is a gift fromt he Father for all to enjoy. It is a gift, whether one chooses to receive it or not is entirely up to him. I choose to receive any gift from Jesus Christ.
Do not judge another's slave, for they are only permitted to act as
they are given to understand. To label all who observe the Sabbath on the Seventh day as legalistic and hypocritical is a bit harsh I would dare say.
I hope you do not assume I am not a brother in Christ because I love the Seventh Day? Or because I do my best to obey God in the Example and teaching of the Master? In the heart of my heart I believe the majority of people labeled as legalists are more of my own persuasion that that of being legalistic. I never see the majority of these folks judging those who think that all the law is obsolete. It is like condemning a brother because he does not dress just like you do, after all, our good works are our wedding garment, and not all wedding garments appear the same, yet they are wedding garments.
praise God always, and love the family in Jesus Christ, amen.
When a person truly understands the teachings of Jesus Christ about obedience, and he is saved by grace, when he reads teh ten commandments he is overjoyed not only to obey them but because he understands teh basis they have in love. The same holds true for when he studies the law and has learned to understand with the important points of mercy, justice and faith. Without those three, study of the law as taught by Christ is a futile endeavor.
Please do not bring in that tired ineffective mention of the 600+ laws that deal with rituals that are no longer in effect nor necessary. Learn all of this from Jesus Christ and loose the bonds of your denomination. All who believe are truly of the faith of Abraham, and if you do not believe this, you do not believe Jesus Christ, our Savior.
Please do not bring in that tired ineffective mention of the 600+ laws that deal with rituals that are no longer in effect nor necessary. Learn all of this from Jesus Christ and loose the bonds of your denomination. All who believe are truly of the faith of Abraham, and if you do not believe this, you do not believe Jesus Christ, our Savior.
Of course I do. Also, it is very important to keep in mind that the gospel was given to him, as mentioned in Hebrews, I believe.
Another important point to remember about Abraham, our Patriarch, is that he was promised the Gate of the enemies of his descendants would be in their hands.
The only enemies of the children of Israel are the pagans, or the gentiles. The Gate to enter is Jesus Christ, and when we enter we are with the chosen of God.
There is much more about Abraham that is worthy of study imparting wisdom to all. It is amazing how he knew the grace of god way back when, but then many of the characters of the OT knew this grace. I suppose these were gifted to see the law without the veil of Moses. Many today claiming grace still see the law through that veil, otherwise they would see it without the curse.
Another important point to remember about Abraham, our Patriarch, is that he was promised the Gate of the enemies of his descendants would be in their hands.
The only enemies of the children of Israel are the pagans, or the gentiles. The Gate to enter is Jesus Christ, and when we enter we are with the chosen of God.
There is much more about Abraham that is worthy of study imparting wisdom to all. It is amazing how he knew the grace of god way back when, but then many of the characters of the OT knew this grace. I suppose these were gifted to see the law without the veil of Moses. Many today claiming grace still see the law through that veil, otherwise they would see it without the curse.
S
If anyone wants to dialogue with a former Sabbathkeeper who changed from that view, feel free to contact me through email here on christianchat.com.
I also have a lot of details regarding my assertions in my profile.
Sabbathkeepers generally fail to understand the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Their reasoning sounds pretty good to those who are unacquainted with the faulty assumptions they are making.
I observed the Sabbath and festivals from about 1985, as a new Christian, to about 1995, as an Armstrongite.
It's mostly a waste of time to argue with Sabbathkeepers concerning this issue. They are already indoctrinated into a worldview which is almost impossible to penetrate. They are convinced that they are the ones who know "the truth" and that everyone else is deceived.
I would suggest the book Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff in this regard before wasting years with their nonsense, instead of focusing on Jesus Christ and his atoning sacrifice, and leading others to know Him. Most Sabbathkeepers do not have Him as their focus, but instead preach a mixture of Sabbath, festival, and clean/unclean meat observance.
In addition, the Sabbath/festival/clean unclean meat observance is usually only the tip of the iceberg with these guys. The cult I was involved with denied the Trinity, claimed they were going to be fully God in the resurrection, and denied the salvation of all other believers. They considered Sabbath-breaking to be the Mark of the Beast. Some challenge the full deity of Jesus Christ and the writings of the apostle Paul, and follow extra-biblical writings such as their prophet or prophetess or the Talmud.
I also have a lot of details regarding my assertions in my profile.
Sabbathkeepers generally fail to understand the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Their reasoning sounds pretty good to those who are unacquainted with the faulty assumptions they are making.
I observed the Sabbath and festivals from about 1985, as a new Christian, to about 1995, as an Armstrongite.
It's mostly a waste of time to argue with Sabbathkeepers concerning this issue. They are already indoctrinated into a worldview which is almost impossible to penetrate. They are convinced that they are the ones who know "the truth" and that everyone else is deceived.
I would suggest the book Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff in this regard before wasting years with their nonsense, instead of focusing on Jesus Christ and his atoning sacrifice, and leading others to know Him. Most Sabbathkeepers do not have Him as their focus, but instead preach a mixture of Sabbath, festival, and clean/unclean meat observance.
In addition, the Sabbath/festival/clean unclean meat observance is usually only the tip of the iceberg with these guys. The cult I was involved with denied the Trinity, claimed they were going to be fully God in the resurrection, and denied the salvation of all other believers. They considered Sabbath-breaking to be the Mark of the Beast. Some challenge the full deity of Jesus Christ and the writings of the apostle Paul, and follow extra-biblical writings such as their prophet or prophetess or the Talmud.
The following response applies here also.
Mankind has been given the Seventh Day as a gift of rest commemorating God's work creating all that is, including us. Because I am born in the 20th century does not exclude me from having been created, so I honor my Dad by recognizing what He has done for me, for you, for all.
As concerning this label, Sabbath Keeper, do not use it, because it has nothing to do with keeping the law, it is a matter of love, appreciation and respect; do not twist those virtues into being "under the law." Learn appreciation, and you will find yourself thankful for all God has done.
Mankind has been given the Seventh Day as a gift of rest commemorating God's work creating all that is, including us. Because I am born in the 20th century does not exclude me from having been created, so I honor my Dad by recognizing what He has done for me, for you, for all.
As concerning this label, Sabbath Keeper, do not use it, because it has nothing to do with keeping the law, it is a matter of love, appreciation and respect; do not twist those virtues into being "under the law." Learn appreciation, and you will find yourself thankful for all God has done.