Did God make Pharaohs heart hard?

[gotime]

An interesting question, it is written:

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Now some might read this and assume the answer is, Yes. And it is but not how many think it is.

Notice carefully that the point is that it is not based on our will but rather on God who shows mercy. That is a statement of fact. He is not saying we have not will or that our will has no place but rather that salvation is based not on human will but on Gods mercy.

Notice in relation to Pharaoh God shows his power but did God shew mercy to Pharaoh?

Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

notice here that it says that God would harden Pharaoh's heart. now that seems pretty straight forward does it not?

Well yes but to understand what that means we need to understand how God did this and then we will better understand God.

Exo 7:13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
Exo 7:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.

This is the first time His heart hardens it says the Lord did it. But notice that it happened after his magicians preformed a similar miracle. keep note of the events this is important.

Exo 7:22 And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.

The second time and Pharaoh's heart hardens again only after the magicians preform a similar feat.

now notice something different happens the third time:

Exo 8:7 And the magicians did so with their enchantments, and brought up frogs upon the land of Egypt.
Exo 8:8 Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron, and said, Intreat the LORD, that he may take away the frogs from me, and from my people; and I will let the people go, that they may do sacrifice unto the LORD.

The magicians manage to preform a similar feat but this time Pharaoh has not yet hardened his heart because the frogs are still a problem for Him.

Exo 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

now notice carefully it is not until God takes the frogs away in His mercy that Pharaoh hardens his heart now notice the wording "he hardened his heart"

Notice carefully, Gods act of mercy causes Pharaoh to harden his heart.

Continue through and something will become clear, Pharaoh hardened his heart by his own free will and it was based on the mercy of God. when God showed mercy by taking the plague away, Pharaoh hardened in pride. One time He hardens because his magicians say this is the finger of God and that is an insult as Pharaoh sees himself as God.

It was his pride so why then does God say I will harden his heart?

The answer is simple, God knew how Pharaoh would react to his mercy and thus he knew his actions though merciful would harden Pharaoh's heart.

this was not force but simple reality.

 

[james57]

When I attended a seventh day Adventist church one Saturday, a minister asked in a bible class why pharoah was so stubborn and ten plagues had to be given.
I said because God hardened his heart. The minister smiled and said
That's right

 

[gotime]

Thanx for sharing.

 

[gotime]

Just curious what is your point? I ask cause you have not stated anything new from the Op. It seems a little random just curious.

 

[james57]

Just curious what is your point? I ask cause you have not stated anything new from the Op. It seems a little random just curious.

If you want to discuss this subject further with me, I will do so by pm, not in open debate. I never discuss osas/predestination in open debate, bearing in mind the negative effect it can have on new Christians to hear some of the scriptures quoted and discussed. Paul was speaking as a seasoned Christian who was sold out for God, not many are at the stage he was(I doubt any of us are in truth to the extent where Paul was at)
Bearing that in mind I apologise for making the comment I did make, it may have been inadvisable

 

[Tintin]

But James, this isn't OSAS or Predestination talk though.

 

[james57]

But James, this isn't OSAS or Predestination talk though.

Isn't Romans 9 about predestination?

 

[prove-all]

sorry if off topic, I thought of Nebuchadnezza


1Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all people, nations, and languages,
that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you.

27Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness,
and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor; if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity.

- he was warned to rule with Gods counsel, repent do good and show mercy.
29At the end of (twelve months) he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.

30The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that (I) have built for the house of
the kingdom by the might of (my) power, and for the honour of (my) majesty?

31While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven,
saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; (The kingdom is departed from thee).

- kingdom temporaly taken away, and was untill (till thou know) that God rulled.

22It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness is grown,
and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.

14He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree, and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves,
and scatter his fruit: let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from his branches:

15Nevertheless leave the stump of his roots in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass,
in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven,
and let his portion be with the beasts in the grass of the earth:

25That they shall drive (thee) from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field,
(till thou know) that the (most High ruleth) in (the kingdom of men),
and (giveth it to whomsoever he will).

16Let (his heart) be changed from man's, and let a (beast's heart) be given unto him;
and let seven times pass over him.

34And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven,
and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High,
and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever

36At the same time (my reason returned) unto me; and for the glory of (my kingdom).
mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me;
and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.

37Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven,

I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them,
and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.​

 

[dcontroversal]

PHARAOH..was raised up to make God's power known to both Israel and the world....He hardened his own heart and like God said..one who will not repent he will lead away with the error of the wicked...God also has the ability to further that hardening by how he responds....Instead of Pharaoh repenting he chose to be angered and in pride rejected what God was wanting....God knew full well what choices Pharaoh would make in life and allowed him to come into being, be raised up and sit in the seat of Power so as to make the one true God known through real power while making a mockery of Egypt's gods dia the 10 plagues.......

 

[crossnote]

Fuller context...

Romans 9:15,19-24 KJVS
[15] For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

[19] Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? [20] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it , Why hast thou made me thus? [21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? [22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: [23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, [24] Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[Grandpa]

God is Sovereign.

Who has power to harden hearts and to soften them?

Answer - God.



We can pretend that it is our will that controls everything but we can't be sure. Only double-minded when we think this way.

There is evil in the world. And there is good. There is dark. And there is light.

Things are separated by God. So we can understand the difference, maybe... For our benefit.

 

[posthuman]

O Lord, why do you make us wander from your ways
and harden our heart, so that we fear you not?
Return for the sake of your servants,
the tribes of your heritage.
(Isaiah 63:17) ​

 

[posthuman]

O Lord, why do you make us wander from your ways
and harden our heart, so that we fear you not?
Return for the sake of your servants,
the tribes of your heritage.
(Isaiah 63:17) ​

God has bound everyone over to disobedience
so that he may have mercy on them all.
(Romans 11:32) ​

 

[Magenta]

Pharaoh hardened his heart six times against God, and then God further hardened it four times.

 

[gotime]

If you want to discuss this subject further with me, I will do so by pm, not in open debate. I never discuss osas/predestination in open debate, bearing in mind the negative effect it can have on new Christians to hear some of the scriptures quoted and discussed. Paul was speaking as a seasoned Christian who was sold out for God, not many are at the stage he was(I doubt any of us are in truth to the extent where Paul was at)
Bearing that in mind I apologise for making the comment I did make, it may have been inadvisable

The focus of this post is not to talk about OSAS. I know often these texts are used in that sense. My focus is rather on what does this story of God hardening Pharaoh's heart teach us about who God is.

I believe that the texts indicate that Pharaoh hardened His heart in reaction to the works and the mercy of God in taking them away when Moses prayed. But this is still God hardening His heart because God knows all things and He knew that by displaying his wonders and then pulling back Pharaoh would let his pride and arrogance harden in reaction to Gods mercy. Prideful men see weakness in mercy and thus Pharaoh's heart was hardened by Gods mercy.

This story shows us that God did not force Pharaoh to chose the path that he did, not in the sense that Pharaoh had no choice in how he reacted. But according to Gods Foreknowledge He knew that Pharaoh would react in this way thus God hardened his heart without being forceful on Pharaoh's decision.

So I guess its unavoidable that this hits on the idea of predestination now that I think about it. but that was not the intent.

 

[crossnote]

Pharaoh hardened his heart six times against God, and then God further hardened it four times.

I think we need to be careful here or salvation can become a matter of works, i.e..."I didn't harden my heart as much as you did, and was therefore in a better position to receive the Gospel".
Compare that with Saul spewing out threats against the Church, imprisoning and even having some put to desth...that's a pretty hard heart...yet GOD in His mercy soften Paul's heart.

 

[posthuman]

Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:
​

“Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”​

For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
​

“He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn — and I would heal them.”​

Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.
(John 12:37-41)
​

from what i read, it seems that it is only by God's mercy that my heart is softened - or for His purpose that it was at one time hardened.

i can't always understand it - tho one day i know He will reveal all these things to us - but at all times, and in every way, i know He is sovereign.

this in John 12 -- this is also my story at one time; though i had seen many signs, my heart was hard. still, God showed me mercy, and bent me to His will - and i believe -- praise God! i know, that He has shown me mercy, and there is no greater thing for man, no other thing at all that i could ever boast of

\/

 

[jb]

Did God make Pharaohs heart hard?

Certainly NOT!

Pharaoh made his own heart hard by continually refusing to repent of his sin in the FULL light of the character and works of God! Eccl 8v11, Rom 2v1-5

 

[Magenta]

I think we need to be careful here or salvation can become a matter of works, i.e..."I didn't harden my heart as much as you did, and was therefore in a better position to receive the Gospel".
Compare that with Saul spewing out threats against the Church, imprisoning and even having some put to desth...that's a pretty hard heart...yet GOD in His mercy soften Paul's heart.

God smote Paul mightily, and Paul repented. Paul was an incredible witness to the power of God through the death and resurrection of Christ, and how it all fit in to the larger picture of all that had preceded the life of Christ in the law and the prophets, which were but mere shadows pointing forward to what we find in Him

The point is, Pharaoh hardened his own heart many times before God further hardened it. The point is also that people often overlook this very salient fact, and want to blame the hardness of Pharaoh's heart all on God.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

actually according to the bible...the pharaoh hardened his own heart...and God hardened the pharaoh's heart as well...

God hardening the pharaoh's heart appears to be a form of judgment in response to the pharaohs' own hardening of his heart...

theologians sometimes call this the 'judgment of hardening'...if you are resistant enough to God's call to repentance...he may completely remove your ability to repent...dooming you...