Who or what is the third horseman in Revelations?

[Ahwatukee]

Okay lots of good responses so far, so if say the white horse is the antichrist then there is an issue because the antichrist has not yet been revealed and the red horse is war and rumors of war right? the third is famine and the fourth is death I believe.

But other than the antichrist himself all these horsemen appear to have been around since before Jesus days, so other than the antichrist we could assume that this part of revelation is complete. But no one really knows who the antichrist is, we have ideas of who he is but he has not revealed himself and there certainly hasn't been a seven year peace treaty in which he would break yet. But as Valiant pointed out Jesus spoke of these things to his generation and in the new testament after Pentecost they spoke often of always being ready always watching and spoke often of the end times as if it could happen in their life times.

so is this all something that was specifically meant for later generations and the apostles and fellow believers were wrong to be ready and to watch? Because if it is only to happen for this generation and the first seal hasn't even been opened then why were they preparing for this?

As I stated, you cannot have the rest of the seals, trumpets or bowl judgments taking place until that first seal is opened.

But no one really knows who the antichrist is

The antichrist is the one who will be making that seven year covenant with Israel and everyone on earth will see that event, because it will be all over the news. This event will initiate that seven years.

But as Valiant pointed out Jesus spoke of these things to his generation

Then Valiant needs to go back and take English 101 again. For the disciples asked Jesus when the signs of his coming take place and the end of the age. And Jesus gave all of the signs leading up to his return to end the age, which includes the abomination being set up in the holy place within the temple, which takes place in the middle of the seven years (Dan.9:27) and which has not been fulfilled. And one of the other major events is the sixth seal where there will be a great earthquake, the sun will be darkened and the moon will be darkened by being turned blood red and the stars will fall from heaven to the earth. Suffice to say, none of those things have taken place. And before anyone sites the recent eclipses, you would have to have the great earthquake and stars falling to earth in order for that to have fulfillment and that because they are all also characteristics of the sixth seal.

Jesus gave an example of how we would know when his coming was near and that by all those signs that he mentioned. Then regarding those signs he says, truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all of these things have happened. Grammatically speaking, "This generation" would have to refer back to when those signs take place and not the current generation from which Jesus was speaking from. Therefore, the focus of proof is on the signs. By interpreting "this generation" as referring to the generation from which Jesus was living in, it gets rid of the need for signs by forcing them into Jesus' generation. Since these events that Jesus lists are the proof that his return is near, then the generation that he was speaking about is the one where those signs take place and of which none have.

so is this all something that was specifically meant for later generations and the apostles and fellow believers were wrong to be ready and to watch? Because if it is only to happen for this generation and the first seal hasn't even been opened then why were they preparing for this?

First of all, let's not confuse the gathering of the church with the return of Christ to end the age, for these are two separate events. That being said, the events of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, being the wrath of God, are events that will be taking place leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, which are those signs that Christ mentioned. Where the promise to the Church is when Christ appears and gathers the church before those events of wrath take place.

The book of Revelation is divided into three parts, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. The "what you have seen" was everything that John saw prior to when he was told to write. The "what is now" is the letters to the seven churches which represent the entire church period. That being said, we are still in "the now" part of what John was told to write. Once the church period has been completed, "the now" will be over and the "what must take place after this" will begin, which are the events that will take place after "the now" that is, after the church period.

Once the last people have come into the church, then Jesus will descend from heaven (1 Thes.4:16) and the dead and living in Christ will be resurrected, changed and caught up to meet the lord in the air. Once that happens the "what must take place later" will begin, which will be the fulfillment of God's wrath and everything that is written regarding the reign of that antichrist/beast.

 

[Stonemason]

The U.S. debt-based dollar is a prime example, controlled by the private banking cartel called the Federal Reserve (a private banking institution run by international bankers with an appointed chairman; it is not a real part of the U.S. government at all. They control deflation and inflation of the U.S. dollar which creates depressions and recessions.

This isn't entirely fair to say. Abandoned credit lines to defaults led to our most current recession, primarily. Every person who did not pay back a debt contributed. Those debts, in turn, were bought and sold, making the "bubble" worse.

I don't want this to become some forum on economics. I just wanted to point out, "it was not all the government's fault, but this strange understanding in society to live above means and expect to never have to repay it".

 

[Ahwatukee]

It is quite clearly stated that this refers to the downfall of Babylon, at a time when the Medes were involved. There is absolutely no reason for pushing it to the end of this age. The 'day of the LORD' merely referred to any time when Go vsited people in judgment. There are many days of the Lord.

Really? Please show us where Babylon and the Medes are mentioned in Isa.13:6-8. It is only by conjecture that you apply this, for the scripture is silent on this. The day of the Lord is a specific, unprecedented time that will affect the entire earth, bringing human government to its end.

As pointed out above this occurred in 6th century BC.

Again, please provide information from scripture showing that this took place in the 6th century. This is more conjecture.

Note that it says SOON take place. It commenced taking place in 1st century AD when the horsemen started to ride.

As I pointed out earlier, you have Isaiah, Joel, Zephaniah and others claiming that the day of the lord is near and yet, the day of the Lord has yet to take place. The phrase means imminency, is about to happen, looming, in the workings, etc.,

Nonsense. Many days of the LORD HAVE taken place.

Of course you would say that, otherwise it kills your whole position if the day of the Lord takes place at a specific time. There is only one "day of the Lord" of which both OT saints and the NT writers speak of, which brings an end to the age with Christ literally ruling on earth.

 

[DP]

What determines the value of currency?

It's not supply and demand, not any longer. That was the old method provided in The Wealth of Nations book.

The U.S. dollar is completely debt-based. It starts out as promissory note, like a check (Treasury Notes). It goes through a system of checks at the commercial bank level which creates loans and turns paid loans into Reserves. It's based on the old goldsmith's rule. In old times, goldsmiths had the only safekeeping for their gold, so people would take their gold to the goldsmiths for safekeeping, and keep a portion for daily transactions. The goldsmiths discovered that at any one time, 90% of the people's gold stay in his safe not doing anything. So the goldsmiths started loaning it out with issued receipts. They figured they only need keep 10% of it in their safe as Reserves. That is the same principle the Federal Reserve and commercial banks use today. It's why a bank subject to a run with all the depositors showing up to collect their money has to close, because the majority of the people's money is not in that bank, but in circulation through loans.

Originally, the U.S. was completely on a gold standard backing for the U.S. dollar. It meant only the number of dollars allowed in the money supply circulation had to be backed by an equal amount of silver or gold in reserve. This was the purpose of places like Fort Knox to keep and guard the gold. Eventually, the bankers little by little got us off the gold standard, using fractional reserves, the dollar only backed by a fraction of gold reserves. In 1971, the U.S. dollar was taken completely off the gold standard. The only backing is their promise to get the money out of the people's pockets through taxation. This was one of the reasons for the creation of the IRS system, along with progressive taxation passed in 1933 under FDR's reign.

What the Fed allows banks to do now is literally create dollars out of thin air, no backing. They are allowed to even make bookkeeping entries to create dollars, inflating the number of dollars in circulation which causes the dollar's value to go down, which then causes prices of labor and goods to go up to balance it. Staying on the gold standard prevents that. So this was the banker's secret method of stealing America's wealth from the people. Even the founding of the Federal Reserve was done in secret at a private meeting of New York bankers and politicians that met at Jekyll Island, Ga. in 1913.

Because of this, the majority of U.S. dollars are not any longer even in printed currency, but in digital format. The interest owed to those bankers is now becoming greater than the taxpayers can meet. Such is our national debt problem created by those bankers.

 

[DP]

This isn't entirely fair to say. Abandoned credit lines to defaults led to our most current recession, primarily. Every person who did not pay back a debt contributed. Those debts, in turn, were bought and sold, making the "bubble" worse.

I don't want this to become some forum on economics. I just wanted to point out, "it was not all the government's fault, but this strange understanding in society to live above means and expect to never have to repay it".

I suggest you read Creature From Jekyll Island about the creation of the Federal Reserve system, and even what ex-chairman of the board Alan Greenspan said originally about the dangers of getting off the gold standard back in 1966.

[h=1]“under the gold standard, a free banking system stands as the protector of an economy's stability and balanced growth... The abandonment of the gold standard made it possible for the welfare statists to use the banking system as a means to an unlimited expansion of credit... In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation” (Alan Greenspan, )[/h]
Alan Greenspan, Gold and Economic Freedom (1966)

 

[eternallife7]

I think that the judgements starting from chapter 6 born again believers will not even be afflicted by it. Because they are judgements on an unbeleiving world.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The book of Revelation was given to John in symbols. No one can understand Revelation with out understanding biblical symbolism. You have to search the bible and find out what wheat symbolizes, you will find that wheat is people. A penny is a days work... In my opinion the days work Jesus did on the cross. Trust me those verses have nothing to do with a shortage of food, that's just completely ridiculous.

Revelation 6:6 KJV
And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

It's high price because of shortage. Sssseesh! Also, the symbols in revelation are revealed right in Revelation. For example

"There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns."

The seven heads:
"The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings.

The ten horns:
"The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast."

In order to find out who the woman of chapter 12 is we must go to Gen.37:9-10

Most of the symbolism is revealed is revealed right in Revelation itself.

Trust me those verses have nothing to do with a shortage of food, that's just completely ridiculous

Well, I guess that we should go tell every single translator that they were wrong by identifying the third seal black horse as famine, because everyone of them interprets this as famine. Even in the margin of your Bibles it will say famine.

As further proof, when the fourth seal is opened it states the following:

"They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth."

The fourth seal is the results of the previous seals and if you will notice the order in the verse above "Kill by sword" would be the second seal red horse and then "Famine and plague" which would represent the third seal.

 

[DP]

This matter of economics is... part of the beasts working, and the locusts working of the Joel 2 and Revelation 3rd and 4th Seal working. So it is very... relevant as to what is happening today.

In 2008, the bubble via the mortgage crisis was created by the high finance world actually creating a fake credit paper made up of mortgage dept that was then traded like stock on the markets. They got university finance profs to put their stamp of approval on the credit instrument, and the Fed (Greenspan himself approving it), and finance publications like Standard & Poors to give it a high investment rating, and the rest is history.

How in the world could such a thing happen? The Wall Street finance houses well knew it was a weak credit instrument, and they played it out to get whatever they could out of it, buying up yachts, properties, personal wealth, things that have NEVER been accounted for, while they KNEW they would get a BAILOUT from the Fed when their own finance companies went down, using taxpayer's monies through bailouts going right back into their businesses! They all... should have been closed down.

And what's worse, is many of the politicians behind it in cahoots with the Wall Street bankers were appointed positions in Obama's cabinet! (see DVD "Inside Job").

 

[DP]

I think that the judgements starting from chapter 6 born again believers will not even be afflicted by it. Because they are judgements on an unbeleiving world.

It's not supposed to affect us 'spiritually'. But it will physically. And we are not to fear that either.

 

[Magenta]

It's not supply and demand, not any longer. That was the old method provided in The Wealth of Nations book.

The U.S. dollar is completely debt-based. It starts out as promissory note, like a check (Treasury Notes). It goes through a system of checks at the commercial bank level which creates loans and turns paid loans into Reserves. It's based on the old goldsmith's rule. In old times, goldsmiths had the only safekeeping for their gold, so people would take their gold to the goldsmiths for safekeeping, and keep a portion for daily transactions. The goldsmiths discovered that at any one time, 90% of the people's gold stay in his safe not doing anything. So the goldsmiths started loaning it out with issued receipts. They figured they only need keep 10% of it in their safe as Reserves. That is the same principle the Federal Reserve and commercial banks use today. It's why a bank subject to a run with all the depositors showing up to collect their money has to close, because the majority of the people's money is not in that bank, but in circulation through loans.

Originally, the U.S. was completely on a gold standard backing for the U.S. dollar. It meant only the number of dollars allowed in the money supply circulation had to be backed by an equal amount of silver or gold in reserve. This was the purpose of places like Fort Knox to keep and guard the gold. Eventually, the bankers little by little got us off the gold standard, using fractional reserves, the dollar only backed by a fraction of gold reserves. In 1971, the U.S. dollar was taken completely off the gold standard. The only backing is their promise to get the money out of the people's pockets through taxation. This was one of the reasons for the creation of the IRS system, along with progressive taxation passed in 1933 under FDR's reign.

What the Fed allows banks to do now is literally create dollars out of thin air, no backing. They are allowed to even make bookkeeping entries to create dollars, inflating the number of dollars in circulation which causes the dollar's value to go down, which then causes prices of labor and goods to go up to balance it. Staying on the gold standard prevents that. So this was the banker's secret method of stealing America's wealth from the people. Even the founding of the Federal Reserve was done in secret at a private meeting of New York bankers and politicians that met at Jekyll Island, Ga. in 1913.

Because of this, the majority of U.S. dollars are not any longer even in printed currency, but in digital format. The interest owed to those bankers is now becoming greater than the taxpayers can meet. Such is our national debt problem created by those bankers.

Doesn't sound good, really. I would think that any nation can only be as wealthy as its natural resources allow. The date of 1933 rings a bell, since I just posted it recently in relation to the United States making its citizens enemies of the state in order to collect all the gold. Thank you for your response.

By this Statute, everyone was required to turn in their gold. Failure to do so would constitute a violation of this provision, such violation to be punishable by a fine of not more than $10,000.00 and imprisonment for not more than ten years. It was a seizure. Whose property may be seized without due process of law under the Trading With the Enemy Act? The enemy’s. Whose gold was seized? Ours — the gold of the people of the united States. Are you seeing the fraud here now? Who did they make the ‘enemy’? We the People!
http://anticorruptionsociety.com/2011/02/25/we-are-the-enemies-of-the-state/

 

[valiant]

Really? Please show us where Babylon and the Medes are mentioned in Isa.13:6-8. It is only by conjecture that you apply this, for the scripture is silent on this.

well of course some of us take verses in their context. And the Medes are clearly connected with these events in 13.17. your problem is that you ignore context and take verses out of their setting. But then you have to. That is how your whole case is built up.

The day of the Lord is a specific, unprecedented time that will affect the entire earth, bringing human government to its end.

That is your surmise with no evidence to back it up. 'The day of YHWH' simply means any day in which He shows forth His power and judgment. There were many such days.

Again, please provide information from scripture showing that this took place in the 6th century. This is more conjecture.

Now you are being absurd. Isaiah is writing abut the coming destruction of Babylon. That occurred in 6th century BC. If you deny it refers to that (which it clearly does) it is up to YOU to prove otherwise, which you cannot.

As I pointed out earlier, you have Isaiah, Joel, Zephaniah and others claiming that the day of the lord is near and yet, the day of the Lord has yet to take place.

LOL how could it be near if it was not to happen for 2500 years.? Each of them is referring to days of YHWH nearer their time.

The phrase means imminency, is about to happen, looming, in the workings, etc.,

yes 'about to happen, NEAR' . Thus we should expect it to happen within say 200 years of the prophecy, as indeed it did.

Of course you would say that, otherwise it kills your whole position if the day of the Lord takes place at a specific time.

I do not say it to defend my position. I say it for the reasons I have given. Each prophet was preparing his people for the future that lay ahead of them, not for 2000 + AD.

There is only one "day of the Lord" of which both OT saints and the NT writers speak of, which brings an end to the age with Christ literally ruling on earth.

That is pure supposition and denies its use in Scripture. But when the final day of YHWH ends the world will be destroyed (2 Peter 3). There will be no spurious millennium. Christ is ruling the earth NOW (Rev 1.5; Acts 2.20, 36).

 

[Magenta]

It's not supposed to affect us 'spiritually'. But it will physically. And we are not to fear that either.

When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift
up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.

 

[Stonemason]

Really? Please show us where Babylon and the Medes are mentioned in Isa.13:6-8.

Well, maybe it's in the rest of the context you're intentionally omitting?

Pick up your Bible. Open to Isaiah 13. Here I will help. It starts with...

"A prophecy against Babylon that Isaiah son of Amoz saw:"

Then, same chapter, same prophecy, same guy talking, same subject...

Isaiah 13:17 "See, I will stir up against them the Medes,
who do not care for silver
and have no delight in gold.

You picked a line out of the middle of the context and made it about... something else. This is what some people do. It's how we get "Rapture concept". It's nonsense. It's intentional obfuscation by omission of fact.

 

[DP]

Doesn't sound good, really. I would think that any nation can only be as wealthy as its natural resources allow. The date of 1933 rings a bell, since I just posted it recently in relation to the United States making its citizens enemies of the state in order to collect all the gold. Thank you for your response.

By this Statute, everyone was required to turn in their gold. Failure to do so would constitute a violation of this provision, such violation to be punishable by a fine of not more than $10,000.00 and imprisonment for not more than ten years. It was a seizure. Whose property may be seized without due process of law under the Trading With the Enemy Act? The enemy’s. Whose gold was seized? Ours — the gold of the people of the united States. Are you seeing the fraud here now? Who did they make the ‘enemy’? We the People!
http://anticorruptionsociety.com/2011/02/25/we-are-the-enemies-of-the-state/

Yep, like Apostle Paul said, the LOVE of money is the root of all evil.

But our Heavenly Father is in control. In that 3rd Seal notice the Oil and the Wine are not to be harmed. That represents the Truth of His Word. And truly, those in deep study of His Word today are having It opened up to them more today than ever before. We should easily be seeing these events of the end coming to pass today in prep for the final battle and our Lord Jesus's return. Perilous times, but times that even the OT prophets wondered about, and probably would have liked to have seen.

 

[eternallife7]

As I said before I'm still studying it but I believe when it says hurt not the oil or the wine it is for the believers and not for the rich as some would try to spin it as.

 

[Magenta]

Yep, like Apostle Paul said, the LOVE of money is the root of all evil.

But our Heavenly Father is in control. In that 3rd Seal notice the Oil and the Wine are not to be harmed. That represents the Truth of His Word. And truly, those in deep study of His Word today are having It opened up to them more today than ever before. We should easily be seeing these events of the end coming to pass today in prep for the final battle and our Lord Jesus's return. Perilous times, but times that even the OT prophets wondered about, and probably would have liked to have seen.

Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. Yea, God has all power. Everything will be accomplished according to His desires. In the meantime, we are to stand firm, expectantly anticipating and awaiting His return

 

[eternallife7]

Also when it says the beast has seven heads and ten horns I'm not sure what the seven heads are but the ten horns I believe shows great differences in agenda in the kingdom of darkness and I think it means that a house divided will not stand.

 

[KJV1611]

Also when it says the beast has seven heads and ten horns I'm not sure what the seven heads are but the ten horns I believe shows great differences in agenda in the kingdom of darkness and I think it means that a house divided will not stand.

The number 10 in the bible ususally points to the law some how or another.

 

[eternallife7]

The number 10 in the bible ususally points to the law some how or another.

thanks I was not aware of it.

 

[KJV1611]

thanks I was not aware of it.

This has nothing to do with this thread, but I think it's a really cool thing in the bible related to the number 10. When Abraham sent his servant to find Isaac a wife, he took 10 camels with him. This may not seem like a big deal until you consider the foreshadowing. Abraham is a foreshadow of God, the servant is a foreshadow of the Holy Spirit, the 10 camels are the law and Rebekah is a shadow of the bride of Christ. Thats exactly how we become the bride of Christ... God sends the Holy Spirit to seek us out, the law convicts of sin, we get saved and become the bride of Christ.