God & Jacob

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Red_Tory

Red_Tory

Senior Member
#1
Jan 26, 2010
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#1
Hey,

I was wondering why God was incapable of defeating Jacob in a fight using conventional means? He had to use divine power to dislocate his hip.

I've heard it been described as "Jacob wrestles the Angel", but Jacob says "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." So I think this would imply that he was wrestling God in the previous verses - unless he is somehow mistaken.

So why did he have to use God-powers and dislocate his hip instead of simply overpowering him? Why could he not defeat Jacob?
 
L

livingbygrace

Banned
#2
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
7
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#2
Red_Tory said:
Hey,

I was wondering why God was incapable of defeating Jacob in a fight using conventional means? He had to use divine power to dislocate his hip.

I've heard it been described as "Jacob wrestles the Angel", but Jacob says "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." So I think this would imply that he was wrestling God in the previous verses - unless he is somehow mistaken.

So why did he have to use God-powers and dislocate his hip instead of simply overpowering him? Why could he not defeat Jacob?
Click to expand...
This is a bit off track to your question, sorry. But how can Jacob have seen God? God is unseen, no-one but Jesus has seen the Father
 
I

Israel

Guest
#5
#5
Hosea 12:2-6

The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him.

3He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:
4Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us;
5Even the LORD God of hosts; the LORD is his memorial. 6Therefore turn thou to thy God: keep mercy and judgment and wait on thy God continually.


This angel represented God as was quite capable of beating jacob. But this wasn't about the strength of the body. Jacob was repenting for the wrong he done in stealing his brother Esau's birthright. This was about his faith to wait on God. The angel showed his superiority by only touching Jacob's hip to dis-joint it, but in the midst of the physical pain, his faith only grew stronger in stating that he will not let go until he was blessed. Paul shows it's full meaning:

Ephesians 6:10-18

Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: 18Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
 
phil36

phil36

Senior Member
#6
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
2,111
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#6
In the story of Jacob, It can be seen that Jacob was a 'cheat/deceiver' (Gen 27:35, 36). First of all Jacob cheats Esau out of his birthright, although Esau was a willing partner (Gen 25:29-34). Later on in the story Jacob was an accomplice with Rebecca (his mother) in deceiving Isaac and Esau over Isaac's blessing.

Jacob dressed and acted like Esau to receive Isaac's blessing (27:14-17; 27-29). From these events it shows that there was no trust in God from Jacob for God had told Rebekah that the older would serve the younger (cf. Gen 25:23). This is good.

With Prompting from God (Gen 31:3) Jacob started on his journey back to the land that had been promised to Abraham and his descendants (28:4). Jacob obviously did not trust God as he feared Esau. Jacob used various methods to try and appease Esau, dividing his family in two, and sending livestock ahead with servants.

But, while Jacob was on his own after dividing his family, God wrestled with Jacob, at this point Jacob was ready to trust in God. Jacob all through his life had struggled with God and others but now he wanted God’s blessing, Jacob now sees God as his God and not “will be my God” (28:21).

In 29+30 Jacob is hard working and long suffering. In 31, I think we see Jacob acting in obedience to God. What you see as fear of Esau could be a humility before Esau from a brother who knows he was a betrayer but has learned to change.

From Jacob’s first prayer in ch 28:20,21, we see that Jacob would only trust God if God done x,y,z for Jacob. But, after Jacob’s encounter with God at Peniel Jacob is a changed man trusting and depending on God.

phil
 
L

livingbygrace

Banned
#7
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
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#7
phil36 said:
In the story of Jacob, It can be seen that Jacob was a 'cheat/deceiver' (Gen 27:35, 36). First of all Jacob cheats Esau out of his birthright, although Esau was a willing partner (Gen 25:29-34). Later on in the story Jacob was an accomplice with Rebecca (his mother) in deceiving Isaac and Esau over Isaac's blessing.

Jacob dressed and acted like Esau to receive Isaac's blessing (27:14-17; 27-29). From these events it shows that there was no trust in God from Jacob for God had told Rebekah that the older would serve the younger (cf. Gen 25:23). This is good.

With Prompting from God (Gen 31:3) Jacob started on his journey back to the land that had been promised to Abraham and his descendants (28:4). Jacob obviously did not trust God as he feared Esau. Jacob used various methods to try and appease Esau, dividing his family in two, and sending livestock ahead with servants.

But, while Jacob was on his own after dividing his family, God wrestled with Jacob, at this point Jacob was ready to trust in God. Jacob all through his life had struggled with God and others but now he wanted God’s blessing, Jacob now sees God as his God and not “will be my God” (28:21).

In 29+30 Jacob is hard working and long suffering. In 31, I think we see Jacob acting in obedience to God. What you see as fear of Esau could be a humility before Esau from a brother who knows he was a betrayer but has learned to change.

From Jacob’s first prayer in ch 28:20,21, we see that Jacob would only trust God if God done x,y,z for Jacob. But, after Jacob’s encounter with God at Peniel Jacob is a changed man trusting and depending on God.

phil
Click to expand...
It's amazing isn't it. Jacob was a cheat, deceiver he didn't trust God(initially) and yet God had said before either of them were born. The older will serve the younger. Jacob I loved but Esau I hated. And this was so that God's purpose in election might stand. Not by works, but by him who calleth.
 
phil36

phil36

Senior Member
#8
Feb 12, 2009
8,260
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#8
I know it is wonderfull how God works for His Children. even before they know it.

Phil
 
Red_Tory

Red_Tory

Senior Member
#9
Jan 26, 2010
611
17
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#9
Yes, I think I understand that now...

But my question was more about the seemingly trivial point of of God not being able to defeat Jacob in a contest of physical strength.
 
loveschild

loveschild

Banned
#10
May 21, 2009
3,955
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#10
Its funny I was just thinking of the same thing as you yesterday. Like one said only Jesus sees the Father. Angels coming down in human form is very common. Maybe at times they are given orders to only use a lil of Gods powers on people.
Just the fact of one even thinking for a second that they could fight God with their fist is out rageous.
Angels are sent from heaven to earth to kill people who disobey God.
Jacob had grace on him thats for sure.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#11
#11
Ok, the original question....

I was wondering why God was incapable of defeating Jacob in a fight using conventional means? He had to use divine power to dislocate his hip.
Click to expand...
So the assumption seems to be that Jacob was wrestling with God, but was he?

Let's look at four translations to see what we get.
Genesis 32:22-32 is the full context if you want to read...

KJV
24And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

NASB
24Then Jacob was left alone, and a man (B)wrestled with him until daybreak.

NIV
24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak.

ESV
24And Jacob was left alone. And(B) a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day.

Ok, so it doesn't say he wrestled with God in that instance. It says he wrestled with a man.

So what in the scripture makes us think he was actually wrestling with God?

I think there are two things.

1. 28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, [a] because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."

2. 29 Jacob said, "Please tell me your name."
But he replied, "Why do you ask my name?" Then he blessed him there.

First. We might assume that because it says he struggled with God, that it's implying the immediate struggle he just had with this 'man'. But this could just be referring to the full context of Jacob's walk with God. Meaning he lived a pretty crazy life and in the midst of the struggle trying to figure this God thing out, he prevailed and got things figured out.

I'm more prone to believe this verse is talking about the life long spiritual struggle Jacob is having, because the immediate context speaks of the wrestler being a man! If it was God, I think the text would of said God.

Second. We might assume this was God because 'Then he blessed him there.' We see that and think only God can bless. But remember, Abraham blessed his son, Isaac blessed his son.

Maybe this 'man' was just a messenger sent from God to 'bless' Jacob.

I'm more prone to believe it was just a human, man messenger meant to bless Jacob, because the immediate text describes him as a man, and not God.

Just my two cents. :D

*EDIT***
Major DUH on my end, what about vs 30?

30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, [f] saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."



Keep in mind, this was Jacob's 'interpretation' of what happened. He had no idea who this 'man' was so he may just of gone totally on assumption and thought it was God. It's clear from the text that Jacob was totally confused.


9 Jacob said, "Please tell me your name."

So we have a inspired text telling us six times it was a 'man' and you have a confused Jacob just assuming it was God.

I'll side with the inspired text that describes him as a man.
*****
 
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C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#12
#12
"Your name shall no longer be called Iakob, but Israel shall be your name, because you have prevailed with a god, and with humans you are powerful" - Gen. 32:28 - New English Translation of the Septuagint (NETS).

and then "for I have seen a god face to face, and my life has been preserved"

So according to the original Greek OT, which we now have properly translated with NETS we know that it agrees with NT Jesus saying 'No man has seen the Father', because Iakob did not wrestle with God the Father or see Him face to face, it just says 'a god' and there are many 'gods'.
 
S

socperkins

Guest
#13
#13
I always assumed the angel was just messing with him, and then broke his hip to show that he could have beaten him at anytime.
 
resurrection33

resurrection33

Banned
#14
Dec 19, 2009
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#14
Red_Tory said:
Hey,

I was wondering why God was incapable of defeating Jacob in a fight using conventional means? He had to use divine power to dislocate his hip.

I've heard it been described as "Jacob wrestles the Angel", but Jacob says "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." So I think this would imply that he was wrestling God in the previous verses - unless he is somehow mistaken.

So why did he have to use God-powers and dislocate his hip instead of simply overpowering him? Why could he not defeat Jacob?
Click to expand...
Only once did God walk the earth, and that was in person of Jesus, right?
 
W

Wootie

Guest
#15
#15
Red_Tory said:
Yes, I think I understand that now...

But my question was more about the seemingly trivial point of of God not being able to defeat Jacob in a contest of physical strength.
Click to expand...
Maybe since God works in the supernatural realm, He had to use supernatural powers to dislocate Jacob's hip. You got questions like I do about stuff, like where did Cain's wife come from, why would God put 1 tree not to be touched in the middle of paradise.
 
M

mpaper345

Banned
#16
Feb 9, 2010
2,486
39
0
#16
The Bible says he wrestled with a man.
God appeared as a man to Jacob.That is why the man would not tell him His name for God's name Jehovah was not to be known then.

Jacob did not defeat God but he was so determined to be blessed that God blessed him.
As a man physical strength alone Jacob prevailed but God put his thigh out of place because Jacob would not let go of the man the physical manifestation of God.

Matt
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#17
#17
Red_Tory said:
Yes, I think I understand that now...

But my question was more about the seemingly trivial point of of God not being able to defeat Jacob in a contest of physical strength.
Click to expand...
If you read my longish type reply above, you'll see it probably wasn't God who wrestled with Jacob. So this question would be like asking of an air-conditioner, "Why did it kill Kennedy in 1963?" To which the answer would be, "Uhh it's an air conditioner and it can't shoot a gun."
 
M

mpaper345

Banned
#18
Feb 9, 2010
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#18
In the Old Testament God appeared as a man to Abraham and Jacob.God appeared as an angel to Monoah and his wife the parents of Samson.
Jesus is a permanent manifestation of God that the saints will see in heaven.

Matt
 
Red_Tory

Red_Tory

Senior Member
#19
Jan 26, 2010
611
17
18
#19
1still_waters said:
If you read my longish type reply above, you'll see it probably wasn't God who wrestled with Jacob. So this question would be like asking of an air-conditioner, "Why did it kill Kennedy in 1963?" To which the answer would be, "Uhh it's an air conditioner and it can't shoot a gun."
Click to expand...

Well if it was just a "man", then how did he use supernatural powers to dislocate his hip?

And if Jacob was confused or it is "his interpretation", then how do we know if the New Testament isn't simply "Mark's interpretation" or "John's interpretation" and all completely wrong?
 
M

mpaper345

Banned
#20
Feb 9, 2010
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#20
The Bible said a man wrestled with Jacob and God made his thigh go out of place.Jesus is God manifest in the flesh.While God walked this earth as a man he could still heal people.While God appeared to Jacob as a man He could still make his thigh go out of place.

Matt
 
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