ATTENTION ALL PROPHECY SEEKERS

Ahwatukee · Apr 26, 2016

Hi lettucepray! Nice play on words by the way. Are you interested in this information or are you just being facetious?

tanakh · Apr 26, 2016

Main problem with that is that Pre Tribbers believe that there are these people they call tribulation saints. If they believe in Christ how do they come to believe without the Holy Spirit being on earth? When you think of the conditions at that time and them being martyred. Also how do the two witnesses preach and do miracles for three and ahalf years when the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth? Going back to these Trib saints who believe in Christ where do they fit in? They cant be the Bride because the Bride is spending seven years at the Wedding feast while they are being slaughtered. Sounds rather unjust to me. The whole business of the tribulation saints hangs mainly on John being asked to ''come up here and the supposed absence of any mention of the Church after the first four chapters of Revelation. This idea ignores the fact that members of the Church are called saints in fourteen books of the NT it also ignores the fact that there is no mention of the Church in Revelation chapter twenty either where the Church or Bride is supposed to reign with Christ a thousand years. Instead the saints or so called Tribulation saints are still being mentioned. Truth is the Saints mentioned in Revelation are the self same saints mentioned throughout the fourteen NT Books. The Holy Spirit doesnt have to leave the earth because the Church is still there. The whole Trib Saint and Holy Spirit interpretatiom was created to fit in with the rest of the Pre Trib teaching.

Ahwatukee · Apr 26, 2016

The Holy Spirit may work in the same capacity as he did with the OT saints prior to indwelling believer's. You're gonna have a 144,000 servants of God and two witnesses prophesying and all of God's wrath being poured out.

If those two witnesses will be sent here by God specifically for the purpose of prophesying and are given power to perform those plagues. That said, they are not going to have be convinced about God, because He's the One who will have sent them. For they are referred to as the two olive branches and the two lamp stands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

As I have posted before, God has made a definite distinction between the church and the great tribulation saints made obvious to those who search out God's word. The use of the word "Church" and the subsequent absence of the word "Saints" within Revelation 1 thru the very end of Rev.3 and likewise the use of the word "Saints" and the absence of the word "church" from Rev.4 onward is all too obvious.

As I have stated before, the very fact that the elder is introducing this group in white robes that no man can count, referred to as those saints who come out of the great tribulation and that he is asking John who they are and the fact that John doesn't know, makes it obvious that this group is not the church. I believe that this group will be made up of people who were professing Christian's but will have been living according to the sinful nature when the Bridegroom appears and they will miss the boat. Jesus warns all believer's of this very concern in Lk.21:34-36. They will also be made up of people who heard the gospel, but never made a decision for Christ and people who will have heard the warnings but like those in the days of Noah, didn't take it seriously.

This actually supports my claim regarding the distinction between the words church and saints within Revelation. Within those fourteen books, the word church and saints is used interchangeably, i.e. both words are used within the text. Not so here in Revelation. As I have pointed out in previous posts, if the word church and saints were both used in all chapters within Revelation, then there would be no foundation for this claim. But the fact that there is a separation of the two and we are introduced to the GTS in chapter 7, it becomes obvious that this group is not the church.

And the above brings us right back to the crux of the problem of mid and post trib believer's. From this present point in time, until Christ returns to end the age to establish his millennial kingdom, the wrath of God stands in the way. The word of God makes it very clear that those who are in Christ are not appointed to suffer his coming wrath and that Jesus rescued us from it. Since Jesus has already suffered the wrath that we deserve as a result of our sins, it would not be in God's nature to send his church through this coming wrath. Taking into consideration the severity and magnitude of this coming wrath and it being world-wide, the church cannot possibly go through it, ergo, the church must be removed prior to God's wrath being poured out.

Regarding the Lord's appearing and our being gathered to Him, he said the following:

"But as for that day or hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Be on your guard and stay alert! For you do not know when the appointed time will come.

It is like a man going on a journey who left his house, put each servant in charge of his own task, and instructed the doorkeeper to keep watch. Therefore keep watch, because you do not know when the master of the house will return—whether in the evening, at midnight, when the rooster crows, or in the morning. Otherwise, he may arrive without notice and find you sleeping. And what I say to you, I say to everyone: Keep watch!”

In the scripture above, it is clear that the Lord's return for us is imminent, that being said, if our gathering was to take place when the Lord returned to the earth to end the age, it would not be imminent and that because there would be every kind of sign imaginable, such as the Antichrist making his seven year covenant with Israel and his setting up of the abomination 3 1/2 years later, as well as all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

The belief of the church being put through the wrath of God stems from 1). those who don't understand the purpose and severity of God's wrath and 2). not understanding the difference between common trial and tribulation, opposed to God's direct and specific wrath. This coming wrath is going to decimate the population of the earth and dismantle all human government. I continue to use this example, that with just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet alone being a fourth and a third respectively, the fatalities will be approximately 4.5 billion people. People have no idea about the horrors that are about to take place on this earth. With this in view and the Lord's warnings for us to always be watching, the Lord's promise to come again and take us back to the Father's house will be prior to the outpouring of his wrath. Then we can do what Paul told us to do regarding our being gathered, which is to comfort one another with these words. And to be gathered and removed from the earth prior to God's wrath is indeed a blessed hope.

Persuaded · Apr 26, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

The Holy Spirit may work in the same capacity as he did with the OT saints prior to indwelling believer's. You're gonna have a 144,000 servants of God and two witnesses prophesying and all of God's wrath being poured out.

If those two witnesses will be sent here by God specifically for the purpose of prophesying and are given power to perform those plagues. That said, they are not going to have be convinced about God, because He's the One who will have sent them. For they are referred to as the two olive branches and the two lamp stands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

As I have posted before, God has made a definite distinction between the church and the great tribulation saints made obvious to those who search out God's word. The use of the word "Church" and the subsequent absence of the word "Saints" within Revelation 1 thru the very end of Rev.3 and likewise the use of the word "Saints" and the absence of the word "church" from Rev.4 onward is all too obvious.

As I have stated before, the very fact that the elder is introducing this group in white robes that no man can count, referred to as those saints who come out of the great tribulation and that he is asking John who they are and the fact that John doesn't know, makes it obvious that this group is not the church. I believe that this group will be made up of people who were professing Christian's but will have been living according to the sinful nature when the Bridegroom appears and they will miss the boat. Jesus warns all believer's of this very concern in Lk.21:34-36. They will also be made up of people who heard the gospel, but never made a decision for Christ and people who will have heard the warnings but like those in the days of Noah, didn't take it seriously.

This actually supports my claim regarding the distinction between the words church and saints within Revelation. Within those fourteen books, the word church and saints is used interchangeably, i.e. both words are used within the text. Not so here in Revelation. As I have pointed out in previous posts, if the word church and saints were both used in all chapters within Revelation, then there would be no foundation for this claim. But the fact that there is a separation of the two and we are introduced to the GTS in chapter 7, it becomes obvious that this group is not the church.

And the above brings us right back to the crux of the problem of mid and post trib believer's. From this present point in time, until Christ returns to end the age to establish his millennial kingdom, the wrath of God stands in the way. The word of God makes it very clear that those who are in Christ are not appointed to suffer his coming wrath and that Jesus rescued us from it. Since Jesus has already suffered the wrath that we deserve as a result of our sins, it would not be in God's nature to send his church through this coming wrath. Taking into consideration the severity and magnitude of this coming wrath and it being world-wide, the church cannot possibly go through it, ergo, the church must be removed prior to God's wrath being poured out.

Regarding the Lord's appearing and our being gathered to Him, he said the following:

"But as for that day or hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Be on your guard and stay alert! For you do not know when the appointed time will come.

It is like a man going on a journey who left his house, put each servant in charge of his own task, and instructed the doorkeeper to keep watch. Therefore keep watch, because you do not know when the master of the house will return—whether in the evening, at midnight, when the rooster crows, or in the morning. Otherwise, he may arrive without notice and find you sleeping. And what I say to you, I say to everyone: Keep watch!”

In the scripture above, it is clear that the Lord's return for us is imminent, that being said, if our gathering was to take place when the Lord returned to the earth to end the age, it would not be imminent and that because there would be every kind of sign imaginable, such as the Antichrist making his seven year covenant with Israel and his setting up of the abomination 3 1/2 years later, as well as all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

The belief of the church being put through the wrath of God stems from 1). those who don't understand the purpose and severity of God's wrath and 2). not understanding the difference between common trial and tribulation, opposed to God's direct and specific wrath. This coming wrath is going to decimate the population of the earth and dismantle all human government. I continue to use this example, that with just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet alone being a fourth and a third respectively, the fatalities will be approximately 4.5 billion people. People have no idea about the horrors that are about to take place on this earth. With this in view and the Lord's warnings for us to always be watching, the Lord's promise to come again and take us back to the Father's house will be prior to the outpouring of his wrath. Then we can do what Paul told us to do regarding our being gathered, which is to comfort one another with these words. And to be gathered and removed from the earth prior to God's wrath is indeed a blessed hope.

And the speculations and opinions and private intrepertations continue.

When are we going to admit that none of us know for sure how this is going to play out and stop posting our speculations and opinions as fact because I know and understand more because I am smarter that everyone else attitude.

tanakh · Apr 26, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

The Holy Spirit may work in the same capacity as he did with the OT saints prior to indwelling believer's. You're gonna have a 144,000 servants of God and two witnesses prophesying and all of God's wrath being poured out.

If those two witnesses will be sent here by God specifically for the purpose of prophesying and are given power to perform those plagues. That said, they are not going to have be convinced about God, because He's the One who will have sent them. For they are referred to as the two olive branches and the two lamp stands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

As I have posted before, God has made a definite distinction between the church and the great tribulation saints made obvious to those who search out God's word. The use of the word "Church" and the subsequent absence of the word "Saints" within Revelation 1 thru the very end of Rev.3 and likewise the use of the word "Saints" and the absence of the word "church" from Rev.4 onward is all too obvious.

As I have stated before, the very fact that the elder is introducing this group in white robes that no man can count, referred to as those saints who come out of the great tribulation and that he is asking John who they are and the fact that John doesn't know, makes it obvious that this group is not the church. I believe that this group will be made up of people who were professing Christian's but will have been living according to the sinful nature when the Bridegroom appears and they will miss the boat. Jesus warns all believer's of this very concern in Lk.21:34-36. They will also be made up of people who heard the gospel, but never made a decision for Christ and people who will have heard the warnings but like those in the days of Noah, didn't take it seriously.

This actually supports my claim regarding the distinction between the words church and saints within Revelation. Within those fourteen books, the word church and saints is used interchangeably, i.e. both words are used within the text. Not so here in Revelation. As I have pointed out in previous posts, if the word church and saints were both used in all chapters within Revelation, then there would be no foundation for this claim. But the fact that there is a separation of the two and we are introduced to the GTS in chapter 7, it becomes obvious that this group is not the church.

And the above brings us right back to the crux of the problem of mid and post trib believer's. From this present point in time, until Christ returns to end the age to establish his millennial kingdom, the wrath of God stands in the way. The word of God makes it very clear that those who are in Christ are not appointed to suffer his coming wrath and that Jesus rescued us from it. Since Jesus has already suffered the wrath that we deserve as a result of our sins, it would not be in God's nature to send his church through this coming wrath. Taking into consideration the severity and magnitude of this coming wrath and it being world-wide, the church cannot possibly go through it, ergo, the church must be removed prior to God's wrath being poured out.

Regarding the Lord's appearing and our being gathered to Him, he said the following:

"But as for that day or hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Be on your guard and stay alert! For you do not know when the appointed time will come.

It is like a man going on a journey who left his house, put each servant in charge of his own task, and instructed the doorkeeper to keep watch. Therefore keep watch, because you do not know when the master of the house will return—whether in the evening, at midnight, when the rooster crows, or in the morning. Otherwise, he may arrive without notice and find you sleeping. And what I say to you, I say to everyone: Keep watch!”

In the scripture above, it is clear that the Lord's return for us is imminent, that being said, if our gathering was to take place when the Lord returned to the earth to end the age, it would not be imminent and that because there would be every kind of sign imaginable, such as the Antichrist making his seven year covenant with Israel and his setting up of the abomination 3 1/2 years later, as well as all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

The belief of the church being put through the wrath of God stems from 1). those who don't understand the purpose and severity of God's wrath and 2). not understanding the difference between common trial and tribulation, opposed to God's direct and specific wrath. This coming wrath is going to decimate the population of the earth and dismantle all human government. I continue to use this example, that with just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet alone being a fourth and a third respectively, the fatalities will be approximately 4.5 billion people. People have no idea about the horrors that are about to take place on this earth. With this in view and the Lord's warnings for us to always be watching, the Lord's promise to come again and take us back to the Father's house will be prior to the outpouring of his wrath. Then we can do what Paul told us to do regarding our being gathered, which is to comfort one another with these words. And to be gathered and removed from the earth prior to God's wrath is indeed a blessed hope.

With all due respect I still don,t believe it Any position that relies on so much conflated speculation and isolated texts raises my suspicions. The one great advantage I and those who believe as I do have is that if the Pre Trib position is right We will be taken along with everyone else. Because our salvation is not dependant on human opinions. On the other hand we will be prepared if it is us who are right and the tribulation comes without an iminant rapture.. How long will it take for a Pre Trib believer to realise that the tribulation had started and the false teaching had them deluded?

Persuaded · Apr 26, 2016

tanakh said:

I agree with your statement.
My great fear is that if we are right and the pre-tribers are wrong, they will run and hide and deny just as Peter and the others did when Jesus was arrested. All they believed and were taught was a lie, so how can they trust in anyone.
My flesh hopes they are right and my family and friends will escape the coming tribulation, but at the same time I try to prepare them physically, mentally, and Spiritually to endure until the end, trusting in and glorifying our Lord and Savior.

As I have stated before, I am satisfied in my belief but will confess I might be wrong.
There are some on this forum who will never consider that they may be wrong, so they look down their nose at those who disagree as being ignorant, unlearned, even OBTUSE.
I am not upset at what they say, it is their all knowing, self rightious attitude I have trouble with.

abcdef · Apr 26, 2016

Brother lettucepray,

My thoughts on Dan 2, are in the thread "What did the 7 thunders say?", posts #93 & #95
You Will also find Brother Ahwatukee's thoughts there also,
Have a good study!

Brother John

abcdef · Apr 26, 2016

Brothers and Sisters,

What is required for the times of the gentiles to be over?

Can we add any more requirements than what is stated in Lk21:24?

That is, that Israel control the city of Jerusalem.

Am I missing any?

I can't see how it would be that Jesus should have to appear, only that Israel controls Jerusalem.

Brother John

Persuaded · Apr 26, 2016

abcdef said:

Rev 12:6 tells us that Israel will flee from the anti-christ into the wilderness where God will protect her for 1260 days.
During those 1260 days the anti-christ and his armies (Gentiles) will control Jerusalem.
This is a future event. It may seem that Israel controls Jerusalem now, but there is a constant battle with the Palestenians for control.
It is only when Jesus returns that they will put out.

john832 · Apr 26, 2016

abcdef said:

What you don't seem to understand is that a the time of Rehoboam, Solomon's son, the ten tribes in the North split off and became the nation of Israel. The three tribes in the South, Judah, Benjamin and Levi, became the nation Judah.

Notice this...

Gen 48:1 Now it came to pass after these things that Joseph was told, "Indeed your father is sick"; and he took with him his two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim.
Gen 48:2 And Jacob was told, "Look, your son Joseph is coming to you"; and Israel strengthened himself and sat up on the bed.

Gen 48:3 Then Jacob said to Joseph: "God Almighty appeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan and blessed me,
Gen 48:4 and said to me, 'Behold, I will make you fruitful and multiply you, and I will make of you a multitude of people, and give this land to your descendants after you as an everlasting possession.'
Gen 48:5 And now your two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, who were born to you in the land of Egypt before I came to you in Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine.

Ephraim and Manasseh are now given equal status a full fledged tribes.

Continue reading in Gen 48 and then we come to this...

Gen 48:15 And he blessed Joseph, and said: "God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, The God who has fed me all my life long to this day,
Gen 48:16 The Angel who has redeemed me from all evil, Bless the lads; Let my name be named upon them, And the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; And let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth."

So when we read of prophecies concerning Israel, we are mainly dealing with Ephraim (Great Britain) and Manasseh (the US).

popeye · Apr 26, 2016

tanakh said:

Actually,I am pretrib rapture and I am fairly sure the man of sin will be revealed,Christians will be rounded up,and about that time,the rapture will take place.

I am not sure on minute specifics,but for a fact,a easily defended fact,it is a pretrib rapture,and God is known for making a line in the sand to call out his remnant.

In fact,we will be told how we missed it while in the compounds with the post tribs.

Persuaded · Apr 26, 2016

popeye said:

No compound for me Brother.
If the Lord chooses to hide and protect me until His coming, Praise God.
If I die protecting my family and friends while proclaiming the Gospel, Praise God.
I know He is coming and I will be with Him.

abcdef · Apr 26, 2016

Brother john832,

I have heard of what your saying in post #50.

How is it you connect the two tribes to the the 2 nations, did they "migrate" or something?

I really don't see any connection.

Brother John

john832 · Apr 26, 2016

abcdef said:

Uh, Ephraim and Manasseh are two of the tribes and of course they migrated...

Jas 1:1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.

All were not in Judea at the time, most had migrated.

abcdef · Apr 26, 2016

Brother Persuaded,

Isn't the description of the woman "fleeing" into the wilderness and being chased by the beast (Rome), exactly what happened when the times of the gentiles began in 70 ad?

When the angel in Dan 12 says, t,ts,1/2ts, until the Holy people are scattered,

Do you think he is saying,

1. The first 3 1/2 t's is from now (Daniel), until Jerusalem is destroyed (Power is scattered, 70 ad).
(This would be under the assumption that the other 3 1/2t's, would be the times of the Gentiles, 70 ad-1967?, making a complete 7, the complete statue of Dan 2.)

2. Watch out for the second half? of the 7yr tribulation? 3 1/2 yrs only?

3. Your ideas, additions,

Bless You My Brother

Brother John

abcdef · Apr 26, 2016

Brother john 832,

Please fill me in on the details of their migration.

Thanks,

Brother John

abcdef · Apr 26, 2016

Brother Ahwatukee, God bless you ,

We do cover a lot of ground don't we?

I still have a major problem with the literal 1000yr reign, as you describe it, after the stone strikes.

Will the world see the face of God?

How can there not be sin in this material world? Lust of the eyes, flesh, etc?

If there is no sin, how can Magog rebel, how many years does it take?

If the stone puts an end to all human government, How does the Magog Government make it all through all those years?

Isn't Magog ready RIGHT NOW, to destroy Israel?

Enu'f for now

Brother John

Persuaded · Apr 26, 2016

abcdef said:

Brother, please don't be offended by what I am about to say.

Daniel covers a great spand of time. Some of his prophesy has been fullfilled and some is yet to come.
To try to study Daniel without having some knowledge of Israel's history can be very confusing, almost imposible to understand. I will also warn you that some on this forum have no clue and will give you opinions and not facts.
May I suggest that you go to the library and check out books that deal with Israel's history from the time of their captivity in Babylon until 70 AD.
With that knowledge and prayer, you will find understanding much easier.

May God bless in your study and understanding.

tanakh · Apr 26, 2016

Persuaded said:

The whole subject is open to debate if it were crystal clear as some would have us believe there wouldnt be anything more to discuss. However up until the 1830s almost everyone believed that there was only one second coming apart from one or two obscure individuals that most people had never heard of and today the vast majority of Christians of all Denominations still hold to that belief. As you say it could be wrong but I would rather feel silly at the rapture than damned in the tribulation.

abcdef · Apr 26, 2016

Brothers and Sisters,

I will never be ashamed of the Word of God and cannot be.

I am for the truth even if it means that I am wrong.

I am not afraid of being corrected or instructed in the Word of God.

I open my thoughts to you to check myself, to see if I am seeing things clearly.

I ask you this, who should I go to, except to the household of the Holy Spirit for my understanding?

Who else can give me "truthful debate"?

We all believe in His resurrection.

We all will be caught up with Him in the air.

We all are looking for and hastening the day of His appearing. Amen.

We are all really one.

One Lord, One faith, Being Baptized, (an act of faith by the believer), born again into the family of God.

When when that day comes, we will not be unified in the faith any longer, because faith will be gone, we will be unified in His body and blood forever.

Looking for clues to His appearing, sharing our ideas.

Let's not let that divide us.

The people of the world may say, I follow this man, or that man, or this group, let them be divided, if that's for them.

Christians follow Jesus.

Everyone here will give an account of our words before Jesus, we'll all be there together.

I am as open as I can be, about what I believe, (as if you can't tell).

I think people have a pretty good idea now, after discussing some passages, that I may see some things a little differently. But only to our Lord's appearing time, and the understanding of symbols. I am not afraid to stand alone.

All the words we write, we write because we love Jesus, and His people.

Do not judge me to harshly for the words that I write. The important thing is, is it scriptural, is it reasonable, is it possible.

A wise man will wait to see, if these things will come to pass.

Let the prophets speak, and let the people of the Holy Spirit judge.

Brother John

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