The Church in Acts did not meet on the first day of the week...

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disciplemike said:
so if the governor tells you not to murder, then it is good. But if God tells you not to murder, it is a burden????????????
Click to expand...

Again:
The OT law is not the only Scripture of God in history.

He said you cannot murder in the NT, too. So you dont need to keep the whole OT Law with all its old burdens together with the New one and with your country law.

So you dont have to have 3 sources, you have 2 - new testament and your government
 
jcha said:
  • The Torah convicts man of sin or lawlessness and brings us to Yeshua by way of the cross (Gal 3:24).
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i see that you have quoted this blog from hoshanahrabbah.org -- and that is helpful to know, because now we can see who it is who is carrying you away. thanks.

but have you actually read this? not the blog -- the scripture itself that is pointed to here?
it is perhaps the most important one, because you say it is that Torah's purpose is to bring us to Yeshua. if Yeshua is indeed Lord above all things, and all things are for His purpose -- then all other things in this list are secondary to the One under whom all things are placed.

read it with me, please:

21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
23 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
​

what does this mean?

you & your disciple are telling us the opposite of this -- you are preaching that now, having been redeemed from the curse of the law, the purpose of Yeshua is to place us back under it?

i think you should take a closer look at exactly what it is the apostle of the Lord is writing to us here. it is very relevant -- because this letter in particular is written to people just like you & your disciple: who have been taken captive and made disciples of a rabbi who denies the very purpose and power of who the Messiah is, what He has done, and why He had to be sent.

being brought into Yeshua is certainly not lawlessness. but it is certainly not being brought under the power of law, or being made subject to the law. it is a greater gift He gives us: freedom.
freedom because in Him we are made mature -- and the one who has become an adult is not under the rules that bound him as a child in the nursery. why? because he has learned responsibility. those rules are in his heart - not the letter, but the righteous purpose of them, which could not be taught to children, because children are unable to comprehend the purpose, but only the strict letter.

but what about the law? is it not fulfilled?
read Romans 6-7 again. we are the ones who have died. anyone who has died is not under the law anymore -- you cannot bring a corpse into court and make accusations against it. you cannot put a corpse in prison or ask it to pay a fine. you cannot stone a corpse to death. in Yeshua, all of this is cancelled -- and cancelled in a way that completely satisfies the law.

because it is not the Son who had to die to allow the Father to remarry the adulteress. it is the woman who must die, and a new creation is made, and it is the Son who now takes up a bride, not the Father. this misunderstanding you have about the marriage of the Lamb ((not the Father, the Lamb)) is central to what you are misunderstanding about the Law, its purpose, and what the Messiah actually has done for us, and does in us who He calls.


 
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Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
(Galatians 3:21-25)
​

"guardian"
"nursemaid"
"tutor"
"nanny"
"schoolmaster"

a person who has charge over children, until they are mature and capable of acting on their own. whom adults are not answerable to. if the nanny has been a good tutor, and the person who was brought up in her is not wicked, will the things they were taught by her not remain in their heart? as it's written: "train up a child in the way that he should go, and when he is old he shall not depart from it."

here is an example of someone who is 'always learning but never coming to a knowledge of the truth' -- a person who never reaches maturity, and remains under the tutelage of a nursemaid even as an adult.
is making us into this sort of person, the purpose of the Salvation of God? :rolleyes:
is His purpose, to make us wicked men & women who forget what we were taught in our youth?
will the Everlasting Father fail to raise up righteous sons and daughters?

sometimes we seem like we answer "yes" to these questions.

where is our faith??
 
disciplemike said:
so you can murder now? as long as you don't eat anything strangled? do you see how silly that sounds?
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it is written that if anyone is in Christ they are a new creation, and the old things are passed away, and behold! all things are made new.

do you imagine that God in His wisdom has made us a new creation, which is a murderer?
do you see how silly that sounds?

does the Everlasting Father not know how to raise up righteous sons and daughters?!?
 
posthuman said:



i see that you have quoted this blog from hoshanahrabbah.org -- and that is helpful to know, because now we can see who it is who is carrying you away. thanks.

but have you actually read this? not the blog -- the scripture itself that is pointed to here?
it is perhaps the most important one, because you say it is that Torah's purpose is to bring us to Yeshua. if Yeshua is indeed Lord above all things, and all things are for His purpose -- then all other things in this list are secondary to the One under whom all things are placed.

read it with me, please:

21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
23 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
​

what does this mean?

you & your disciple are telling us the opposite of this -- you are preaching that now, having been redeemed from the curse of the law, the purpose of Yeshua is to place us back under it?

i think you should take a closer look at exactly what it is the apostle of the Lord is writing to us here. it is very relevant -- because this letter in particular is written to people just like you & your disciple: who have been taken captive and made disciples of a rabbi who denies the very purpose and power of who the Messiah is, what He has done, and why He had to be sent.

being brought into Yeshua is certainly not lawlessness. but it is certainly not being brought under the power of law, or being made subject to the law. it is a greater gift He gives us: freedom.
freedom because in Him we are made mature -- and the one who has become an adult is not under the rules that bound him as a child in the nursery. why? because he has learned responsibility. those rules are in his heart - not the letter, but the righteous purpose of them, which could not be taught to children, because children are unable to comprehend the purpose, but only the strict letter.

but what about the law? is it not fulfilled?
read Romans 6-7 again. we are the ones who have died. anyone who has died is not under the law anymore -- you cannot bring a corpse into court and make accusations against it. you cannot put a corpse in prison or ask it to pay a fine. you cannot stone a corpse to death. in Yeshua, all of this is cancelled -- and cancelled in a way that completely satisfies the law.

because it is not the Son who had to die to allow the Father to remarry the adulteress. it is the woman who must die, and a new creation is made, and it is the Son who now takes up a bride, not the Father. this misunderstanding you have about the marriage of the Lamb ((not the Father, the Lamb)) is central to what you are misunderstanding about the Law, its purpose, and what the Messiah actually has done for us, and does in us who He calls.


Click to expand...

Joh 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
 
before He revealed Himself to me, i read the Law, and it was commands. they were commands that i did not keep, and the Law convicted me. it made me aware of the sin in me -- and made that sin all the more sinful, because not only was it sin, but it was also transgression.

i should follow it -- i thought. i knew, because it is good; it is the perfect law of God, the Holy One.

i have not followed it, i knew. i still did not follow it, i knew. even if i kept my hand from evil, sin crouched at the door. it was in me. the Law never removed sin: it clarified it. it highlighted it. it drew big red circles around it, and bright arrows pointing at it.

then i came to know Him.

this is what the Law teaches: that all men need mercy. that no one is saved, except by mercy. not by human desire, not by human effort, not by vain human attempts at righteousness -- mercy. even the sacrifices of the law are mercy: the blood of bulls and goats do not forgive sin; they are obedient replies, and for that obedience, God grants mercy.
that is how the Law brings us to Yeshua, because Yeshua is the Living Mercy of God.

then He showed Himself to me, and i submitted myself to Him.

and i fell as dead at His feet.
but in Him, who has died for my atonement and sanctification - the atonement of all sin - and my entire sanctification - i not only died, but was raised up again in life. a life that is not mine, and a righteous life that is not my righteousness. not by effort, but by submission. not by will, but by mercy.

and He continues to grow me, as the seed of a fruit tree, sprouted, slowly taking shape, becoming a thing that gives shade to many creatures and by whom many things are fed. that is not complete yet, temporally.

now i read the Law again.
these things are no longer commands; they are promises. i will not covet. i will not blaspheme. i will not murder. because by faith, i know that the Blessed One who began this in me will complete it.
not by my desire. not by my effort.

by my submission to Him. by faith.
 
jcha said:
Joh 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
Click to expand...

For I am confident of this very thing,
that He who began a good work in you
will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
(Philippians 1:6)​
 
TonyJay said:
Am I to suppose here that you do not believe that anything written by Paul has any Scriptural authority.
If that is the case - we are nowhere in agreement.
Click to expand...

I love the teachings of Paul. But many have misunderstood or taken out of context what Paul teaches. Paul's only source to teach from is the Tanak (OT). When you know and understand the front of the book, the end of the book makes perfect balance in teaching all of the Word.
 
jcha said:
I love the teachings of Paul. But many have misunderstood or taken out of context what Paul teaches. Paul's only source to teach from is the Tanak (OT). When you know and understand the front of the book, the end of the book makes perfect balance in teaching all of the Word.
Click to expand...

But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
(Philippians 3:7-11)
​

read this again.

he is not pointing back at the Torah, that we should follow it.
he used to do that.
he considers the 'righteousness' that doing this by effort to be rubbish now, dung.

it is a greater righteousness that has been revealed: one which is by faith. one which is not my own, but is formed in me as i am conformed to the image of the Son, not by my own will & effort, but by the power of an indestructible life being formed within me.

it satisfies the requirements of the Torah fully.
but it does not come from the Torah.

what comes from the Torah is this: the need for something more -- the need for that Lamb who was slain for you.

the need for that Risen Lord to rise in you.

in order to attain this, you must die. you must be "conformed to His death" as the scripture states.
 
it is not the Father who must die in order for a new marriage to be sanctified under the law.

it is the adulterous woman who must die -- and be raised again, a new creation, spotless and blameless before Him, a virgin -- to be offered to the Son.

this is accomplished because the Son has taken upon Himself all the iniquity of the adulteress. it is to His death she must be conformed, so that to His life also she is conformed, as also to Him she will be conformed, as a wife to her husband.
 
posthuman said:
it is not the Father who must die in order for a new marriage to be sanctified under the law.

it is the adulterous woman who must die -- and be raised again, a new creation, spotless and blameless before Him, a virgin -- to be offered to the Son.

this is accomplished because the Son has taken upon Himself all the iniquity of the adulteress. it is to His death she must be conformed, so that to His life also she is conformed, as also to Him she will be conformed, as a wife to her husband.
Click to expand...

Deu 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
Deu 24:2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.
Deu 24:3 And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;
Deu 24:4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
 
jcha said:
I love the teachings of Paul. But many have misunderstood or taken out of context what Paul teaches. Paul's only source to teach from is the Tanak (OT). When you know and understand the front of the book, the end of the book makes perfect balance in teaching all of the Word.
Click to expand...

Naw, Paul had another "source".

"Dear brothers and sisters, I want you to understand that the gospel message I preach is not based on mere human reasoning. I received my message from no human source, and no one taught me. Instead, I received it by direct revelation from Jesus Christ." (Gal. 1:11-12)
 
we have died to the Law through the body of Christ that we might be married to another, even to Him Who is raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit unto God (Rom 7.4)
 
FreeNChrist said:
Naw, Paul had another "source".

"Dear brothers and sisters, I want you to understand that the gospel message I preach is not based on mere human reasoning. I received my message from no human source, and no one taught me. Instead, I received it by direct revelation from Jesus Christ." (Gal. 1:11-12)
Click to expand...

Yes, that is correct. Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Gal 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

Paul went to the same place that the Israelites were at Mount Horeb, "in Arabia" and received the commandments of God. Paul went there and was taught "the mystery of the ages" by Jesus.

What do you think was "the mystery of the ages"? Does Paul tell us? Mar_4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Eph_6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Col_1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

What is the mystery? Is it not "How can God remarry Israel and not break His own Law (Deut. 24:1-4)? The answer is found in Jesus Christ, Immanuel, God with us.

As a side note, in regards to the mystery of the gospel of the kingdom
 
jcha said:
Yes, that is correct. Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Gal 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

Paul went to the same place that the Israelites were at Mount Horeb, "in Arabia" and received the commandments of God. Paul went there and was taught "the mystery of the ages" by Jesus.

What do you think was "the mystery of the ages"? Does Paul tell us? Mar_4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Eph_6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Col_1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

What is the mystery? Is it not "How can God remarry Israel and not break His own Law (Deut. 24:1-4)? The answer is found in Jesus Christ, Immanuel, God with us.

As a side note, in regards to the mystery of the gospel of the kingdom
Click to expand...

God does not 'remarry' Israel. He marries a new Israel. But certainly His relationship is not determined by an irrelevant OT passage which deals with divorce 'for something unseemly' (ANYTHING seen by the man as such) and remarriage.
 
jcha said:
Yes, that is correct. Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Gal 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

Paul went to the same place that the Israelites were at Mount Horeb, "in Arabia" and received the commandments of God. Paul went there and was taught "the mystery of the ages" by Jesus.

What do you think was "the mystery of the ages"? Does Paul tell us? Mar_4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Eph_6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Col_1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

What is the mystery? Is it not "How can God remarry Israel and not break His own Law (Deut. 24:1-4)? The answer is found in Jesus Christ, Immanuel, God with us.

As a side note, in regards to the mystery of the gospel of the kingdom
Click to expand...

So, you agree that Pauls "source" was Jesus Christ. Good.
 
jcha said:
Deu 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
Deu 24:2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.
Deu 24:3 And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;
Deu 24:4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
Click to expand...

Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
(Luke 16:18)
​

the woman must die, and be raised new creature.
anyone who marries her commits adultery, including her first husband.

Christ was not raised up a new man -- but the same. He does not change. yesterday, today, forever - He is the Son.

the New Jerusalem is the Wife of the Lamb, not the Wife of the Father. we go the marriage supper of the Son -- not some 2nd marriage of the Father. we go, new creations, spotless and blameless in Him.
we are free to become His bride because we have been crucified with Him -- and with Him, the spirit of the age, to whom we formerly subjected ourselves as a husband, is crucified to us. therefore we are set free.

this all hinges on your death and the death of the sin that you were sworn to in your flesh.
not the 'death of the Father'

if Israel will be included in the Bride of the Lamb, then Israel too, must die, and be raised again a new creature.

the old covenant is gone. the old priesthood is gone. the old law is gone.
unless you embrace the new, you are condemned under the old.
unless you die, you prostitute yourself.

shall God be joined to an harlot?
then we must die, and be born again a new creation. Israel too, if she would be grafted in again. no matter how many deaths the Son dies, He rises again the same Son, and unless the woman dies, she remains an harlot, and anyone who marries her commits adultery.
 
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