Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
It says the follow the lamb.

Iow,they are already saved.

They are sealed,not saved,because they are already saved.

It says they are first fruits. Maybe they are preachers,maybe not.

It is speculation.

1. No one is saved until they are sealed (eph 1: 13- 14)
2. Who said they were preachers. we are ALL commanded to go out and make disciples of all nations. would they not have the same mission. to save that which is lost? we do not have to be preachers to do this. That is one of the problems wiht the church right now. we want to leave all the work to them..
 
P

popeye

Guest

"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

In answering the disciples question of "what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age" Jesus had already mentioned the destruction of the temple and so his a answers were focused on the signs leading up to the end of the age, with the mention of the abomination in Matt.24:15 marking the middle of the seven years according to Dan.9:27. Regarding those signs, Jesus said that they would begin during that last generation and that once they began, that generation would not be completed until all of the signs had been fulfilled. Therefore, those signs are contained within that last generation and not over two thousand years. The only thing that involves the last two thousand years is the information contained within the letters to the seven churches, which is meant for all believers and churches to examine themselves against. Everything from Rev.4 onward is still future.

This error stems from not understanding end-time events nor the severity of God's coming wrath, that the wrath contained in the book of Revelation is not meant to pass by unnoticed behind the scenes of history, but is meant to get the worlds attention! The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place in the same manner as a woman having birth pains, which will start off mild and farther apart, while becoming closer together and more intense, leading up to the return of Christ. By stringing God's wrath out to cover two thousand years, you take away the "Hey! I want your attention" factor.

Think of it in the same way that a parent, after speaking his child verbally several times, but with no results. Now, it is time to take more drastic action by hitting them where it hurts!, Where they have no choice but to listen, and that because they can no longer ignore it. That is what God will be doing with the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. By spreading God's wrath out over two thousand years, you distort the scriptures and take away their purpose.

Everything from Revelation 4 onwards represents the "what must take place later" i.e. after "what is now" I.e. after the church period.


Yep.

Not only that,but usually the fig tree is referring to Israel.

All those signs,the bowl judgments etc,have not happened.

Like you say,that historicist mess is silly.
 
P

popeye

Guest

1. No one is saved until they are sealed (eph 1: 13- 14)
2. Who said they were preachers. we are ALL commanded to go out and make disciples of all nations. would they not have the same mission. to save that which is lost? we do not have to be preachers to do this. That is one of the problems wiht the church right now. we want to leave all the work to them..
It is not a factor.

If we all need to call them preachers then they are preachers.

There are 5 ministry gifts.

And if you read the context of that seal,it is specifically to identify who not to sting. The scorpions can sting anyone else.

Your argument is that the seal is automatic at salvation.

That would make their seal redundant.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
It is not a factor.

If we all need to call them preachers then they are preachers.

There are 5 ministry gifts.

And if you read the context of that seal,it is specifically to identify who not to sting. The scorpions can sting anyone else.

Your argument is that the seal is automatic at salvation.

That would make their seal redundant.
this makes no sense.

1. Again, I do not have to be a preacher to spread the gospel. and bring people to christ. so you need to remove the "preacher" aspect from the equation. it does not matter if they are preachers or not.
2. The angel stopped the tribulation. Telling the 4 angels who were in charge of harming the earth to stop until the 144000 were sealed (before they died)
3. again, what were they sealed for. What reason would we have to seal them, if not to spread the gospel..
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
This error stems from not understanding end-time events nor the severity of God's coming wrath, that the wrath contained in the book of Revelation is not meant to pass by unnoticed behind the scenes of history, but is meant to get the worlds attention! The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place in the same manner as a woman having birth pains, which will start off mild and farther apart, while becoming closer together and more intense, leading up to the return of Christ. By stringing God's wrath out to cover two thousand years, you take away the "Hey! I want your attention" factor.
I don’t think it can get any more severe than a person who is not given the faith of God needed to believe Him. There is not much hope in that other than to never rise again to new spirit life again.

The Christians hope because it is founded Christ who is not a man as us, as a hope that rises above human hope .In that way the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. We have been given a supernatural hope like that given to Abraham which is needed to establish the faith principle.(not of our own selves)

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the “faith of Abraham”; who is the father of us all,(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. Rom 4:16


The wrath of God that is still being revealed from heaven in respect to a corrupted world. It began when Adam and Eve fell, being ejected from the garden which was set aside to represent the kingdom of God (thy kingdom come) which is not of this world. When the veil I was rent it signaled the last days, ending with the second resurrection the receiving of our incorruptible bodies on an incorruptible new earth............ the promised new creation.

For the wrath of God "is revealed from heaven" against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the "invisible things" of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Rom 1:18

It is by the things made and not in respect to the things made, the corruptible.We simply do not know Christ, the anointing Holy Spirit of God after the rudiments of this world which will go up in smoke, vanishing away on the last day.
 
Aug 19, 2016
721
3
0
Quasar92, with your writing about the 144000 i agree. But what i not found is that the 144000 are preaching the gospel. It is not written in bible. I heared it before too, that they will preach the gospel, but this is more an assumption. The only thing is written about that we find in Rev. 14,6-7; (Sorry in my post i wrote wrongly 16,6-7) and this I find also in Math.24,14 where Jesus mentioned that the gospel of the kingdom will be preached world wide. So far thank you for your writings!

The following is from a source, other than, the information I have already provided you with, endorsing them.

Who are the 144,000?

The book of Revelation has always presented the interpreter with challenges. The book is steeped in vivid imagery and symbolism which people have interpreted differently depending on their preconceptions of the book as a whole. There are four main interpretive approaches to the book of Revelation: 1) preterist (which sees all or most of the events in Revelation as having already occurred by the end of the 1st century); 2) historicist (which sees Revelation as a survey of church history from apostolic times to the present); 3) idealist (which sees Revelation as a depiction of the struggle between good and evil); 4) futurist (which sees Revelation as prophecy of events to come). Of the four, only the futurist approach interprets Revelation in the same grammatical-historical method as the rest of Scripture. It is also a better fit with Revelation’s own claim to be prophecy (Revelation 1:3; 22:7, 10, 18, 19).

So the answer to the question “who are the 144,000?” will depend on which interpretive approach you take to the book of Revelation. With the exception of the futurist approach, all of the other approaches interpret the 144,000 symbolically, as representative of the church and the number 144,000 being symbolic of the totality—i.e., the complete number—of the church. Yet when taken at face value: “Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel” (Revelation 7:4), nothing in the passage leads to interpreting the 144,000 as anything but a literal number of Jews—12,000 taken from every tribe of the “sons of Israel.” The New Testament offers no clear cut text replacing Israel with the church.

These Jews are “sealed,” which means they have the special protection of God from all of the divine judgments and from the Antichrist to perform their mission during the tribulation period (see Revelation 6:17, in which people will wonder who can stand from the wrath to come). The tribulation period is a future seven-year period of time in which God will enact divine judgment against those who reject Him and will complete His plan of salvation for the nation of Israel. All of this is according to God’s revelation to the prophet Daniel (Daniel 9:24–27). The 144,000 Jews are a sort of “first fruits” (Revelation 14:4) of a redeemed Israel which has been previously prophesied (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25–27), and their mission seems to be to evangelize the post-rapture world and proclaim the gospel during the tribulation period. As a result of their ministry, millions—“a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language” (Revelation 7:9)—will come to faith in Christ.

Much of the confusion regarding the 144,000 is a result of the false doctrine of the Jehovah's Witnesses. The Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that 144,000 is a limit to the number of people who will reign with Christ in heaven and spend eternity with God. The 144,000 have what the Jehovah’s Witnesses call the heavenly hope. Those who are not among the 144,000 will enjoy what they call the earthly hope—a paradise on earth ruled by Christ and the 144,000. Clearly, we can see that Jehovah’s Witness teaching sets up a caste society in the afterlife with a ruling class (the 144,000) and those who are ruled. The Bible teaches no such “dual class” doctrine. It is true that according to Revelation 20:4 there will be people ruling in the millennium with Christ. These people will be comprised of the church (believers in Jesus Christ), Old Testament saints (believers who died before Christ’s first advent), and tribulation saints (those who accept Christ during the tribulation). Yet the Bible places no numerical limit on this group of people. Furthermore, the millennium is different from the eternal state, which will take place at the completion of the millennial period. At that time, God will dwell with us in the New Jerusalem. He will be our God and we will be His people (Revelation 21:3). The inheritance promised to us in Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14) will become ours, and we will all be co-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17)


Quasar92.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
So the answer to the question “who are the 144,000?” will depend on which interpretive approach you take to the book of Revelation. With the exception of the futurist approach, all of the other approaches interpret the 144,000 symbolically, as representative of the church and the number 144,000 being symbolic of the totality—i.e., the complete number—of the church. Yet when taken at face value: “Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel” (Revelation 7:4), nothing in the passage leads to interpreting the 144,000 as anything but a literal number of Jews—12,000 taken from every tribe of the “sons of Israel.” The New Testament offers no clear cut text replacing Israel with the church.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, "but in the Spirit", if so be that the "Spirit of God" dwell in you. Now if any man have not the "Spirit of Christ", he is none of his.

The Amil position agrees with the number that no man could count represented by the 144,000. It is in respect to and inward Jew born of the Spirit of Christ(nothing to do with the corrupted flesh of men , as tribes “sent out” (apostle) with the word of God just as with the apostles the that make up the same one bride the church on this side of the reformation as sent ones, with the same gospel. Both considered as apostles (sent ones) . Christians is the promised new name He did name His church the bride of Christ, in Acts.

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart,” in the spirit”, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
You obviously havn't understood my post. I am not disputing the book of Revelation as being inspired Scripture. What I do dispute is the Pre Tribulation interpretation of it. The conclusion I have stated regarding the book only holds true if you believe that it was only meant for this generation of believers and that appears to be the case for those who hold the Pre tribulation belief. If such an important event is to happen dont you think God would have made it clear that it was going to happen and not wait 2000 years to let mainly North American Evangelists in on the secret. Revelation was written to comfort Christians in every generation suffering tribulation none of which were zapped off into space before they experienced it. That includes John. who was given a series of visions that were highly symbolic and were based on Old Testament passages brought to mind through the Holy spirit.
Let me identify myself with tanakh's remarks. He has a brilliant mind and a true love and understanding of the Word. Some people you just know are full of the HS and this brother is one of them. That said, I have a cool story to share that I heard first hand from the front line of the Battle Field - Syria. THIS IS AN AWESOME TRUE STORY FOR ALL SIDES. PLEASE READ AS YOU WILL BE BLESSED>

A small church of 200 members operating in Aleppo having been devastated by ISIS lost 60% of its members to beheadings or fleeing. Down to just 80 people, the pastor and family was considering closing shop and fleeing too. They decided to travel down to Damascus to get their papers in order. It would be a grueling drive with unknown checkpoints along the way and IUDs. Killing Christians had become a sport by this time.

The pastor, his wife, his son and his son's wife set out by car. The son noticed his dad, the pastor, had brought along a rucksack but thought nothing of it. Pastor and wife were in the front, son and his wife in the back seat. They got to the first check point and a Syrian solder came to the window and asked for their papers. The pastor tells him, "I have something much more important to give you than our papers." He reaches into his rucksack and brought out a NT Bible. He tells the solder, that this can save your life. The son, as strong as a Christian as he was thought they were dead.

The solder tries to grab the Bible. The dad won't let it go. The son pleads, "Dad just let him have it!!" The pastor says to the solder, "I will let go and give you this Book but only if you promise you will read the whole thing." The solder agrees. The dad releases the NT and they are allowed to go. The son in the back seat, shaken, is so relieved and cannot believe they are still alive.

They come to the next check point. Son urges dad not to do that again. But the seasoned Pastor tells his son, "I'm a pastor. It's my job to spread the good news of salvation to the Muslims. They need it so bad!!" He pulls up to the guard and does the same thing. Son and wife in back seat resign themselves that this would be their final day alive on earth. But same result, the solder takes the Bible and lets them pass.

Two more times this happens and twice, same result. Finally they get to the government building to get their passports. There are windows like a drive up teller. The dad does the same thing to each of the windows handing out all of the Bibles that he brought. The son finally gets it and he starts witnessing. They return home to Aleppo out of Bibles and filled with the HS.

As we all know, Aleppo has been devastated by fighting. A city of 5 million is down to 300K. The next Sunday, the faithful pastor opens his church. To his amazement, a horde of over 2,000 people were there ready to come in. Hungry and thirsty for the Word in this war torn place, people wanted hope of something.

I heard this story from the son whom I met this past weekend. When I consider the danger they live in everyday I feel so inadequate being an American Christian. Our brothers and sisters in the middle east have Faith that can move mountains, while we in the west have it easy. It's funny that many in our ranks are begging for the rapture to rescue them from "tribulation" while those of our body on the front lines of the spiritual battle relish the opportunity to suffer and die for Christ. They aren't looking for a rapture, they are looking forward to the Second Coming and their rest.

This story forever changed me. I hope it blesses some of you.
 
Last edited:

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
4,635
1,040
113
76
thus you are calling God a liar. Your Bad
Where am I calling God a liar? The real liars are John Darby and Cyrus Schofield who invented the Pre Tribulation Rapture.
you should check out their credentials like Scofield who deserted his wife and children for three years having escaped prosecution for fraud. Unfortunately millions are still being deluded by these men long after their deaths.
 
Last edited:
E

Eternallife

Guest
I do not want to start an arguement but pre trib isn't false.
 
E

Eternallife

Guest
I do not want to start an arguement but pre trib isn't false.
When Christ talks about different kingdoms and the world and the earth He is referring to more than just physical locations, but it has to do with our walk and our current obedience with Christ as well. When God says the kingdom of heaven sufferith violence and the violent take it by force He is not talking about people hurting other people and then killing themselves to die and go to heaven. He is talking about people repenting and learning of Christ and being set free from sin by continuing in the word.
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
4,635
1,040
113
76
Let me identify myself with tanakh's remarks. He has a brilliant mind and a true love and understanding of the Word. Some people you just know are full of the HS and this brother is one of them. That said, I have a cool story to share that I heard first hand from the front line of the Battle Field - Syria. THIS IS AN AWESOME TRUE STORY FOR ALL SIDES. PLEASE READ AS YOU WILL BE BLESSED>

A small church of 200 members operating in Aleppo having been devastated by ISIS lost 60% of its members to beheadings or fleeing. Down to just 80 people, the pastor and family was considering closing shop and fleeing too. They decided to travel down to Damascus to get their papers in order. It would be a grueling drive with unknown checkpoints along the way and IUDs. Killing Christians had become a sport by this time.

The pastor, his wife, his son and his son's wife set out by car. The son noticed his dad, the pastor, had brought along a rucksack but thought nothing of it. Pastor and wife were in the front, son and his wife in the back seat. They got to the first check point and a Syrian solder came to the window and asked for their papers. The pastor tells him, "I have something much more important to give you than our papers." He reaches into his rucksack and brought out a NT Bible. He tells the solder, that this can save your life. The son, as strong as a Christian as he was thought they were dead.

The solder tries to grab the Bible. The dad won't let it go. The son pleads, "Dad just let him have it!!" The pastor says to the solder, "I will let go and give you this Book but only if you promise you will read the whole thing." The solder agrees. The dad releases the NT and they are allowed to go. The son in the back seat, shaken, is so relieved and cannot believe they are still alive.

They come to the next check point. Son urges dad not to do that again. But the seasoned Pastor tells his son, "I'm a pastor. It's my job to spread the good news of salvation to the Muslims. They need it so bad!!" He pulls up to the guard and does the same thing. Son and wife in back seat resign themselves that this would be their final day alive on earth. But same result, the solder takes the Bible and lets them pass.

Two more times this happens and twice, same result. Finally they get to the government building to get their passports. There are windows like a drive up teller. The dad does the same thing to each of the windows handing out all of the Bibles that he brought. The son finally gets it and he starts witnessing. They return home to Aleppo out of Bibles and filled with the HS.

As we all know, Aleppo has been devastated by fighting. A city of 5 million is down to 300K. The next Sunday, the faithful pastor opens his church. To his amazement, a horde of over 2,000 people were there ready to come in. Hungry and thirsty for the Word in this war torn place, people wanted hope of something.

I heard this story from the son whom I met this past weekend. When I consider the danger they live in everyday I feel so inadequate being an American Christian. Our brothers and sisters in the middle east have Faith that can move mountains, while we in the west have it easy. It's funny that many in our ranks are begging for the rapture to rescue them from "tribulation" while those of our body on the front lines of the spiritual battle relish the opportunity to suffer and die for Christ. They aren't looking for a rapture, they are looking forward to the Second Coming and their rest.

This story forever changed me. I hope it blesses some of you.
That was an amazing story.
 
Aug 19, 2016
721
3
0
Where am I calling God a liar? The real liars are John Darby and Cyrus Schofield who invented the Pre Tribulation Rapture.
you should check out their credentials like Scofield who deserted his wife and children for three years having escaped prosecution for fraud. Unfortunately millions are still being deluded by these men long after their deaths.

Jn.8:7 "When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."

Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul are the ones who taught the pre-trib rapture of the Church. John Darby and C.I. Scofield revived it from being held hostage by the RCC for more than 1,600 years. because of the heretic doctrine of Amillennialism that denies it. Review the following Scriptural facts:


The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church



Beginning with Matthew.24:31:

And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.

Luke.21:36:

"Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

John.14:2-4 and 28:

"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thess.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.

1 Thess.4:13-18:

The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in verse 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Verse 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep."Verse 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years].Verse 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Verse 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Verse 18.

2 Thess.2:1-8: The precise timing of the rapture of the Church:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thes.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thes.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thes.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in verse 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man for the last time, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] will not come, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "to depart," or "departure," meaning, the rapture of the Church] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist, and all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [Departure] will take place before the antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio of 2 Thess.2:3: By Thomas Ice, PhD.

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

From: http://www.raptureready.com/featured...onians2_3.html


"He [The antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thes.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:

In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in verse 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Verse 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thess.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.

Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thes.1:10; 1 Thes.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5!

The difference between the Second Coming of Christ and the pre-trib rapture of the Church:

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice...eenTheRapt.pdf



Quasar92

 
Last edited:
Aug 19, 2016
721
3
0
Scriptural proof for the pre-tribrapture of the Church:

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.


Quasar92

 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,373
113
Where am I calling God a liar? The real liars are John Darby and Cyrus Schofield who invented the Pre Tribulation Rapture.
you should check out their credentials like Scofield who deserted his wife and children for three years having escaped prosecution for fraud. Unfortunately millions are still being deluded by these men long after their deaths.
Tanakh,

Why do you an others continue to attempt to discredit the timing of the gathering of the church prior to God's wrath being poured out? Neither John Darby nor Schofield wrote the word of God. The conclusion of when the gathering of the church takes place in relation to where we are right now, God's wrath and Christ's return to the earth to end the age, can be deduced from comparing and cross-referencing scripture and that without any involvement from either of those men. This continuous referencing of these two men is just an apologetic for the purpose of supporting your position.

The bottom line is that, those of us who are serious searchers of the scriptures regarding end-time events and all other Biblical topics, come to our conclusions based on scripture and not from the teachings of men. Therefore, please stop assuming that all people have been influenced and have formed their beliefs based on these men, because that conclusion is false. These men did not invent the "pre-trib" gathering of the church, for it is in the written word of God.
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
4,635
1,040
113
76
Scriptural proof for the pre-tribrapture of the Church:

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.


Quasar92

Lets get one thing clear. I am not denying the resurrection of the dead which is promised throughout the Bible nor the 'Rapture' of the living' for want of a better word. What I deny is the Pre Tribulation Rapture and the whole Dispensational
teaching that goes with it. You have listed a number of verses as ''Proof Text'' but as with all Pre Rapture believers you have had to give your interpretations to them in order for them to say what you want them to say. I have heard the idea
that 'falling away is mistranslated. I am not a Greek or Hebrew scholar but know from those who are that there are instances where a word in Greek can have more than one meaning and find it suspicious that the the one clear passage
from Paul showing the order of events is disputed . It puts me in mind of the instance where the Jehovah Witnesses translate Johns Gospel to support their denial of the Trinity. They used to use the Moffat translation of the NT to support the claim when their own translation was published. Does that mean they are correct because they managed to find one translation that appears to agree with them? The idea that RCC scribes had a hand in translating the KJV seems odd considering it is not a translation approved for reading by the Catholic church, even though the Apocrypha was included in the early publications. The Douay version was their alternative.

As for casting stones does that mean we should blindly follow anyone who claims to be Christian. There have been manypeople in history whose personal lives do not match their claim. A large number of Popes, Charles Manson who claimed to be the Messiah, David Koresh, Jim Jones and a large number of false Prophets including Scofield who didnt kill anyone but like the others mentioned was still a sinner
 
Last edited:

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
4,635
1,040
113
76
Tanakh,

Why do you an others continue to attempt to discredit the timing of the gathering of the church prior to God's wrath being poured out? Neither John Darby nor Schofield wrote the word of God. The conclusion of when the gathering of the church takes place in relation to where we are right now, God's wrath and Christ's return to the earth to end the age, can be deduced from comparing and cross-referencing scripture and that without any involvement from either of those men. This continuous referencing of these two men is just an apologetic for the purpose of supporting your position.

The bottom line is that, those of us who are serious searchers of the scriptures regarding end-time events and all other Biblical topics, come to our conclusions based on scripture and not from the teachings of men. Therefore, please stop assuming that all people have been influenced and have formed their beliefs based on these men, because that conclusion is false. These men did not invent the "pre-trib" gathering of the church, for it is in the written word of God.
I continue to deny the PRE TRIB RAPTURE because it is deceiving a large number of Christians into believing that they will be rescued from the tribulation. I know that not all people have been influenced by them praise God but many have especially in the USA and that is no coincidence. Scofield had a strong influence on Moody's beliefs. Scofield didnt write the word of God but did peddle his interpretation of it with his notes. You dont need to read them directly because since his death in 1922 his ideas have been a major influence in evangelical circles and the Bible has been studied and interpreted by many through his lense.
 
Last edited:
Jan 15, 2011
736
28
28
Well Tanakh, the POST TRIB RAPTURE also has its deceptions as well. As does the MID TRIB RAPTURE and the PRE WRATH RAPTURE.

Interestingly enough, the Holy Spirit showed me the Pre-Tribulational Harpadzo of the Church long before I had heard of a man name Moody or Darby. In fact I learned about them here on these forums a few months ago. Fancy that.
 

tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
4,635
1,040
113
76
awhwatukee

There are a few other things I should clarify/mention following my previous reply.

I am not denying the rapture. I believe it is likely to occur mid tribulation.

I mentioned Scofields influence on Moody. At least one leading writer on the last days studied at the Moody Bible Institute.
The writer was Hal Lindsey of Late Great Planet Earth Fame. His book sold millions of copies, and his views are derived from Scofield.