144,000

[eternally-gratefull]

True Israel is the Church, He is ruling now...He's the head...
All doesn't always mean all, need to check for qualifiers...probably means all believers will serve Him...but even the wicked are said to serve Him, although not willingly, but God uses them to bring about His plan.

I don't think the whole world will fit in Jerusalem lol. Again your really didn't give my scripture reference so I can check context.

Nations. lol. Most likely it is national leaders.

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this.

Micah 5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.
5:4 He will stand and shepherd his flock in the strength of the Lord, in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God. And they will live securely, for then his greatness will reach to the ends of the earth.

Zechariah 14:9 The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.
Zechariah 14:16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty

I do not see how any of the bolded items has yet been fulfilled. They are as of yet future.

 

[Bookends]

oh but there is so much more

He will rule Isreal, and his rule will extend to all corners of the earth
He will be served by all people
The people who were defeated (nations of the earth) will come to worship him in jerusalem. and those who do not. God will chasten them by withholding nations from their land.

I have just named a few. there are so many more

Jesus told the Sumaritan woman that we will no longer worship God in Jerusalem nor this mountain, but we will worship in spirit and truth...boarder line blasphemy my friend I think, maybe too strong...but earthly Jerusalem is the anti-type for the heavenly Jerusalem, Paul calls it our mother, Gal. 4:26, "But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother."

 

[Bookends]

Nations. lol. Most likely it is national leaders.

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this.

Micah 5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.
5:4 He will stand and shepherd his flock in the strength of the Lord, in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God. And they will live securely, for then his greatness will reach to the ends of the earth.

Zechariah 14:9 The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.
Zechariah 14:16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty

I do not see how any of the bolded items has yet been fulfilled. They are as of yet future.

ONE Government!

The bible teaches Jesus is on His throne now, sitting. It called David's throne because David's throne is a type to Christ's throne.

 

[Bookends]

Nations. lol. Most likely it is national leaders.

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this.

Micah 5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.
5:4 He will stand and shepherd his flock in the strength of the Lord, in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God. And they will live securely, for then his greatness will reach to the ends of the earth.

Zechariah 14:9 The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.
Zechariah 14:16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty

I do not see how any of the bolded items has yet been fulfilled. They are as of yet future.

This is Christ's coming who set up His kingdom here on earth...Both Jesus and John the Baptist preached "the Kingdom of God are at hand", which means near, right at the door....The gospel is spreading to the ends of the earth, Christians are almost everywhere (maybe not a lot, but they are there).

The Lord does shepherd us, does He not?

 

[Bookends]

Nations. lol. Most likely it is national leaders.

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this.

Micah 5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.
5:4 He will stand and shepherd his flock in the strength of the Lord, in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God. And they will live securely, for then his greatness will reach to the ends of the earth.

Zechariah 14:9 The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.
Zechariah 14:16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty

I do not see how any of the bolded items has yet been fulfilled. They are as of yet future.

Just a quick look at it, sounds like pentecost.

Acts 2:5
5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.

 

[Straightshot]

"It's not about me, bro...The sooner you realize that then maybe we could be friends"


It is about your preterism

And I am not here to make friends

I am here to teach the full context of the gospel of Jesus Christ and His complete more sure word of prophecy

I quite frankly do not like your preterism and disrespect for the Lord's Word .... your problem, not mine

So back off .... my organization copies all of my dialogue for study and research with posters on a forum like this one

.... so I have all of your first snide remarks and my follow up replies

You have to watch your back side with me

I do not care what you teach on this forum and can see right through your ilk and can also counter any thing that you can muster, but I do not like to be threatened .... so put it away

I have the right and responsibility to counter your preteristic teaching on any issue as needed

So do not come at me with your "I am going to get you banned" junk

Got it

 

[Bookends]

Nations. lol. Most likely it is national leaders.

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this.

Micah 5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.
5:4 He will stand and shepherd his flock in the strength of the Lord, in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God. And they will live securely, for then his greatness will reach to the ends of the earth.

Zechariah 14:9 The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.
Zechariah 14:16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty

I do not see how any of the bolded items has yet been fulfilled. They are as of yet future.

A closer look it sounds like a prophetic picture of the eternal state.

 

[Bookends]

"It's not about me, bro...The sooner you realize that then maybe we could be friends"


It is about your preterism

And I am not here to make friends

I am here to teach the full context of the gospel of Jesus Christ and His complete more sure word of prophecy

I quite frankly do not like your preterism and disrespect for the Lord's Word .... your problem, not mine

So back off .... my organization copies all of my dialogue for study and research with posters on a forum like this one

.... so I have all of your first snide remarks and my follow up replies

You have to watch your back side with me

I do not care what you teach teach on this forum and can see right through your ilk, but do not like to be threatened

I have the right and responsibility to counter your preteristic teaching on any issue as needed

So do not come at me with your "I am going to get you banned" junk

Got it

So that explains it, you have something to lose if I sound biblical convincing and if I expose your wild flights of imaginary prophetic garbage. Sounds like it's all about your organization, what a hypocrite.

 

[Billyd]

Bro Bookends, you kinda blew over my question earlier. Why the specific number, 144,000, given? What is the significance of 12,000 from each Tribe of Israel?

 

[psalm6819]

I saw the most wonderful example of behavior modeled for us, right here on this thread- I'll even name names-Eternallygrateful and Bookends, differing opinions but still brotherly love. A shining example for us all.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A closer look it sounds like a prophetic picture of the eternal state.

eternal state? then tell me this.. why will god punish those who do not, by withholding rain? Is there sin in heaven, can we sin and not worship God?


Zech 14: 16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

 

[Hizikyah]

Phillipians 3:20, "But our citizenship is in heaven, out from which we also eagerly wait for our Ruler, Yahshua Messiah the King"

Revelation 20:1-3, "And I saw a malak come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, who is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years-- And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished; and after that he must be loosed a little season."

When satan is bound for 1,000 years mankind will have a period where there is no influence from the adversary himself. A time for man to see what a Yahweh focused society is like, and then at the end of the 1,000 years satan is loosed and peple will choose a side, in the end satan is cast into eternal darkness.

Isayah 66:20-24:, "And they will bring all your brothers for an offering to Yahweh--out fall nations, on horses, in chariots, and in litters, on mules, and on camels, to My holy mountain Yerusalem, says Yahweh: just as the children of Israyl bring an offering in a clean vessel into The House of Yahweh-- And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, says Yahweh. For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make will remain before Me, says Yahweh: so will your seed and your name remain. And it will come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh will come to worship before Me, says Yahweh. And they will go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched; and they will be an abhorrence to all flesh."

Zecharyah 14:16-21, "Then it will come to pass that everyone who survives of all the nations which came against Yerusalem, will also go up from year to year to worship the King, Yahweh of hosts, by keeping the Feasts at The House of Yahweh. And it will be that if any families of the earth will not come up to Yerusalem to worship the King, Yahweh of hosts, then upon them will be no rain. If the family of Egypt will not come up and present themselves, they also will have no water; they will receive the same plague with which Yahweh of hosts strikes the heathen who will not come up to keep the Feasts at The House of Yahweh. This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all nations that do not go up to keep the Feasts at The House of Yahweh. In that day there will even be engraved on the bells of the horses: (Qodesh La-Yahweh); Holy to Yahweh; and the pots in Yahweh's House will be like the bowls before the altar. Yes, every pot in Yerusalem and Yahdah will be holy to Yahweh of hosts, so that all who sacrifice may come and take of them, and boil the meat of the sacrifices in them. And in that day there will no longer be a Canaanite in The House of Yahweh of hosts.

Revelation 20:7, "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison."

When satan is bound for 1,000 years mankind will have a period where there is no influence from the adversary himself. A time for man to see what a Yahweh focused society is like, and then at the end of the 1,000 years satan is loosed and peple will choose a side, in the end satan is cast into eternal darkness.

 

[Bookends]

Bro Bookends, you kinda blew over my question earlier. Why the specific number, 144,000, given? What is the significance of 12,000 from each Tribe of Israel?

I didn't understand your question...I think it's symbolic, not literal. 1000 to mean means a complete or full, or ALL. I think these are Jews from the twelve tribes. God seems to use number 12 to established governance of His people (12 tribes, 12 apostles). In Revelation 14:4 this group is said to be the first fruits of the harvest. So maybe God showing us that these are the first group of Christians who are of Jewish origin. Which seems to suggest to me that these are early Jews coverts Christians, not 2000+ years later Jewish converts. If these are future Jews after some future tribulation period, after the "so called rapture of the church" then they should be called the last fruits (wouldn't yah think?). It is in the first century that the first converts where made, thus this is one of the reasons I think that most of Revelations is past, John's future, but our past.

Side note: Look at how James address his audience in his book. To the 12 tribes of Israel who are scattered abroad (verse 1). James is writing to Jewish Christians. In verse 18 of chapter 1 James says that they are the first fruits: that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures. So what I'm trying to bring out is that the first fruits are Jewish Christians according to John and James. The first Christians were Jewish, makes sense, Jesus was Jewish, 12 disciples, the day of pentecost, all Jews...etc. etc.

In verse 5 of Rev. 14 these 144000 are said to be of no guile (no deceit). John, states that same thing of what Jesus said of Nathanael (John 1:47), A true Israelite indeed. Most of the Jewish religious leaders where hypocrites, but here we have the meaning of what a true Jew is, one is has no deceit, and Nathanael became a Christian, a follower of Christ. Jesus made a distinction between these two groups, honest Jews seeking truth and dis-honest Jews (pharisees etc.) whom He called the son's of the devil.

We don't know the exact number of Jewish converts before the 1st Gentile came in, it could have exactly 144000, or exceeded that number, to me it's not that important. We know it was a lot, 3000 on pentecost, another 5000 after that, and new coverts where added daily after that. I think the number 12 is depicting a beginning, first fruits, and 1000 is depicting ALL , a complete number, the whole amount of, early Jewish converts. 12=beginning of God's Church in Christ, 12=God's true governing nation and 1000 = a complete number (we use 1000 everyday as hyperbole, ex. I read a 1000 emails today, I sneezed a thousand times today etc. etc....the bible uses it in the same manner too)...

I wish I had a better answer for yah, but I'd be trying to draw things out of a hat if I said more.

 

[Straightshot]

"So that explains it, you have something to lose if I sound biblical convincing and if I expose your wild flights of imaginary prophetic garbage. Sounds like it's all about your organization, what a hypocrite"


I have nothing to loose son .... thanks for re-posting my message to you .... cut and paste it on your wall

And I do mean all that I said

You believe what you want .... and so will I

And I will continue to evaluate things posted as I see them ..... yours or anyone's presentation

And if you like the game of snipping at those who disagree with you, you can expect nothing less

So you decide for yourself and I will respond accordingly .... I can match and beat you .... if I want

 

[Bookends]

eternal state? then tell me this.. why will god punish those who do not, by withholding rain? Is there sin in heaven, can we sin and not worship God?


Zech 14: 16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

No sin in heaven...no...But those separated from God will have every type of blessing removed from them. I may have study this deeper EG, I haven't been focusing on the OT that much lately. But I think we really derailed this thread. ;(

 

[Bookends]

"You do not have to believe God will restore Israel to go to heaven. that is NOT the gospel. if you think it is, then you my friend are the one in trouble."


It is what is behind the replacement/ preteristic dogma on the surface that is the issue here

Another gospel is hiding in the details

You do not listen well

I'd like to know what that is?

 

[Straightshot]

"I'd like to know what that is?"


Really?

I would think that you don't .... if you do

Rather than posting a book on the subject for you .... which I will not do ..... I believe that you have already read my postings on the subject

You do the leg work .... information about the preteristic theology is replete on the Internet

Don't just read the pied pipers of the dogma .... there are just as many against

If you do this you will know the difference ..... then come back and I might be willing to discuss

..... but I really doubt that you will do this thing

Do not bother to respond with any preteristic debate tactics .... I have heard them all before

 

[Straightshot]

The 144000 subject is very significant and should be the focus of this thread for the Christian

.... and I have to say that to the preterist thinking .... there is no significance, because all that preterism teaches related to the prophetic word is the past and Israel is finished ..... no future

So there is no debate related to the 144000 of Israel available for the preterist

 

[Bookends]

The 144000 subject is very significant and should be the focus of this thread for the Christian

.... and I have to say that to the preterist thinking .... there is no significance, because all that preterism teaches related to the prophetic word is the past and Israel is finished ..... no future

So there is no debate related to the 144000 of Israel available for the preterist

yah, too boring for yah right. Let's put the focus and a natural secular Israel rather then what Christ as done once for ALL!

New American Standard Bible
By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

As far as I know ALL includes those in the future, no need for an earthly temple for priest, sacrifice and worship

 

[Zifnab21]

It's not actually 144,00 people. The "thousand," when used by the Jews in the Bible meant "many." Twelve can be seen as a representation of the tribes of Israel. It's symbolism for many people.