Rapture Gap

[Ahwatukee]

Hello buddyt,

If the true believers were here at the time Satan shows up why does Revelation 9:4 read as it does. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree, but only those men which have NOT the seal of God in their foreheads. If these men were gone why this statement ?

Below is Rev.9:4

"They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads."

The key to your answer is understanding who "these men" are. Rev.9:4 says:

"but only those men which have not the seal of God on their foreheads."

"Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

The 144,000 are twelve thousand from each of the twelve tribes mentioned, identified as the first fruits out of Israel to God. Therefore, it is only the 144,000 who are sealed and will be protected from the stings of these demonic beings. It is obvious that this group of144,000 is not the church. And since according to scripture, the 144,000 are the only one's who are sealed, then everyone else on the planet will be exposed to the torment of these things that come up out of the Abyss.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Persuaded,

God's wrath is not poured out until after the seventh trump return of Christ and His gathering unto Him the saints.

How can you claim that wrath is not poured out until after the seventh trumpet, when the seals are referred to as being wrath as well? Also, if you have the church being gathered after the 7th trumpet, it would mean that the church would have gone through two thirds of God's wrath, which scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer.

You still refuse to see that the coming TRIBULATION is not God's wrath.

The word "tribulation" is not unique or specific to just referring to what man does. Tribulation is also what God does. The seven years are God's tribulation, with the last 3 1/2 years referred to as the great tribulation, which begins with the setting up of the abomination. The first seal rider on the white horse is representing the antichrist. Once the church has been gathered, sometime after that antichrist will establish his seven year agreement, initiating that seven years. During that entire seven years, God's wrath will be poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

 

[samuel23]

Read Matt 24 and Luke 13, Jesus described the period He called the great tribulation war, famines, pestilences,,earthquakes... with intense persecution against those who believe in Jesus Christ(then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you,and you shall be hated of all nations for my Name sake). The great tribulation is a time of great persecution against those who believe in Jesus, so it cannot be the time of God's wrath unless you believe that God persecutes His own people because they believe in Jesus Christ. So the tribulation is not the wrath of God. The church from the day of Pentecost onward believed in the return of Christ that Jesus gave the apostles. How do I know that? Because the bible tells us plainly that they were waiting for the return of Christ and the ONLY return of Christ that existed at that time was the post-trib return that Jesus had given the apostles to give to the church. Years later when Paul joined the church he would have accepted the same return that the church was already believing in(post-trib).

 

[Persuaded]

Hello Persuaded,



How can you claim that wrath is not poured out until after the seventh trumpet, when the seals are referred to as being wrath as well? Also, if you have the church being gathered after the 7th trumpet, it would mean that the church would have gone through two thirds of God's wrath, which scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer.



The word "tribulation" is not unique or specific to just referring to what man does. Tribulation is also what God does. The seven years are God's tribulation, with the last 3 1/2 years referred to as the great tribulation, which begins with the setting up of the abomination. The first seal rider on the white horse is representing the antichrist. Once the church has been gathered, sometime after that antichrist will establish his seven year agreement, initiating that seven years. During that entire seven years, God's wrath will be poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.[/SIZE]

The only place where the seals are referred to as being wrath in when the sixth seal is opened and the wicked of the earth say that God's wrath has come (Rev. 6:12-17). No doubt they believe it has come.
Rev. 11:18 is when the 24 elders announce that the wrath of God is come.

Wrath is reserved for the wicked, but tribulation has always been present in the life of saints and will be unbearable during 1260 days that the man of sin makes war on the saints if it were not for the Holy Spirit comforting and protecting those who are alive. Many, most will die, but those who God chooses will remain alive to see His coming at the seventh trump.

Seals and trumpets are tribulation. God's wrath comes only when the seven bowls are poured out on the wicked.
It is very clear for those who will study with an OPEN mind.

 

[RickyZ]

I can imagine that when the time actually comes there will be one of two very similar responses:

The believer who believes they will face the tribulation judgments and prepares for them, when raptured before it all, will happily exclaim "no poop!"

The believer who believes in the escape clause, and makes no preparation to go thru the time that is described, but finds themselves facing said time anyway, will in horror exclaim "oh poop!"

Which of these two is most likely to partake in what Jesus and Paul described as apostasy?

 

[samuel23]

The question about the rapture of the church can be answered in less then 20 minutes if one really wants to know what the word of God has to say on the subject. Jesus said that He would return in the sky, with a trumpet, and angels and gather the believers to Himself, and it would happen immediately after the tribulation. Years later Paul wrote to the Thess that Jesus would return in the sky ,with a trumpet, and angels and gather the believers to Himself in the sky. And Paul said it could not happen until after the advent of the Antichrist(the time of the tribulation). Also the church before Paul was post-trib because that was the only return they could have been taught, so Paul joined a post-trib church, so he would have accepted post-trib rapture. Also the tribulation Jesus described was the wrath of Satan against the church not the wrath of God. The fat lady has sang...there never was a pre-trib rapture.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Jesus said that He would return in the sky, with a trumpet, and angels and gather the believers to Himself, and it would happen immediately after the tribulation.

G-day samuel23,

It is the "and it would happen immediately after the tribulation" that you are adding or misunderstanding. Please show us the scripture that reveals that our being gathered would happen after the tribulation? I already know where you are going to and as I said previously, you come to this conclusion because you are not discerning the difference between the Lord's appearing to gather the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. It is important to know what event the scripture is referring to. What you're doing is applying the scriptures which refer to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age as being the same as His appearing to gather the church. As long as you continue to do that, you will distort and confuse the two events.

I can explain any verse of scripture that you are using to support your belief as being false and why it is false. Please provide the scriptures that support a post-trib gathering of the church and I will reveal why it is not.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The only place where the seals are referred to as being wrath in when the sixth seal is opened and the wicked of the earth say that God's wrath has come (Rev. 6:12-17). No doubt they believe it has come.
Rev. 11:18 is when the 24 elders announce that the wrath of God is come.

Wrath is reserved for the wicked, but tribulation has always been present in the life of saints and will be unbearable during 1260 days that the man of sin makes war on the saints if it were not for the Holy Spirit comforting and protecting those who are alive. Many, most will die, but those who God chooses will remain alive to see His coming at the seventh trump.

Seals and trumpets are tribulation. God's wrath comes only when the seven bowls are poured out on the wicked.
It is very clear for those who will study with an OPEN mind.

That is what I have been trying to get you and others to understand, that the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are not common tribulation for the church. I have already provided the scriptures from the seals, trumpets and bowls which refer to each set as being wrath, but you're not listening. The announcement at the 6th seal that the great day of there wrath has come, also includes what will have previously taken place regarding the fatalities as a result of seals 1 thru 4. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments all make up the wrath of God that will take place during that last seven years.

Wrath is reserved for the wicked, but tribulation has always been present in the life of saints and will be unbearable during 1260 days that the man of sin makes war on the saints if it were not for the Holy Spirit comforting and protecting those who are alive.

The saints above during that 1260 days is not the church, but is in reference to those great tribulation saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17. The church is not here during that time period.

 

[Persuaded]

That is what I have been trying to get you and others to understand, that the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are not common tribulation for the church. I have already provided the scriptures from the seals, trumpets and bowls which refer to each set as being wrath, but you're not listening. The announcement at the 6th seal that the great day of there wrath has come, also includes what will have previously taken place regarding the fatalities as a result of seals 1 thru 4. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments all make up the wrath of God that will take place during that last seven years.



The saints above during that 1260 days is not the church, but is in reference to those great tribulation saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17. The church is not here during that time period.[/FONT][/SIZE]

Your belief that Christ comes in the air, not to the earth, for "the church" before the time of tribulation is wrong.
Your belief that His coming for "the church" and His second coming are two different events is wrong.
Your belief that the seals and trumpets are God's wrath is wrong.
The only way you can belief this and teach this is to misunderstand the clear Word of God.
I believe that you mean well and are convinced that you are right, but you are very, very wrong in your understanding of the coming tribulation, God's wrath, and our gathering together with our Lord.

 

[Bladerunner]

RAPTURE Satan's favorite word.

Hello Bubbyt......... I am a fundamentalist and read the bible and its prophecies literally. That is not to say there are not figures of speech in it, to be frank there are about 200 different types of speech including 'puns' made by God himself.

Darby ideology was put to rest many years ago. So have the others.

Here are four passages that tell us that the rapture Hebrew (Harpozo--strongs G726, Latin Rapio(root of rapture)) will happen.

Romans 5:9, 1 Thes 1:10, 1 Thes 5:9, Rev 3:10

Now I will tell you this...take it anyway you wish....

If I am wrong and the Rapture does not get here before I die, then nothing changes because when I do die, my soul will be taken into heaven awaiting the rapture (my soul will need its old body to be transformed) .

If I am Raptured while alive, my soul and transformed body will be in heaven for an eternity.

Either way, it is a WIN -- WIN situation for me and all those people that believe in Jesus, His Gospel and the Word of God.

When you are wrong: How are you going to feel when you are setting some place and the rapture happens? Lets say the person next to you simply disappears and then all of a sudden it hits you in the face. Are you going to fall to you knees and cry to the heavens with outstretched arms "where did I go wrong". Well, according to the parable of the 10 virgins, your words will likely fall on deaf ears.

Another question?.....HOW MANY other people have you given a front row ticket to the worst time this earth will ever see.
either on earth or in Sheol (I guess there is no Sheol either). Are you going to feel bad and get into contact with them in order to set Jesus's Words right or are you going to just sit there and let them............well........

 

[Bladerunner]

The only place where the seals are referred to as being wrath in when the sixth seal is opened and the wicked of the earth say that God's wrath has come (Rev. 6:12-17). No doubt they believe it has come.
Rev. 11:18 is when the 24 elders announce that the wrath of God is come.

Wrath is reserved for the wicked, but tribulation has always been present in the life of saints and will be unbearable during 1260 days that the man of sin makes war on the saints if it were not for the Holy Spirit comforting and protecting those who are alive. Many, most will die, but those who God chooses will remain alive to see His coming at the seventh trump.

Seals and trumpets are tribulation. God's wrath comes only when the seven bowls are poured out on the wicked.
It is very clear for those who will study with an OPEN mind.

Wrong,,,Wrong,,Wrong...Jesus tells us himself of the Great Tribulations in Matthew 24:21 " For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

 

[RickyZ]

In another thread (on the subject of tongues and prophecy) those against them finally convinced me they had ceased and weren't for us today. So I started going thru my Bible to cross out all the parts that spoke of them, since they no longer applied. Then I noticed that I evidently hadn't read scripture very closely, because I started to notice little fine print footnotes that confirmed it. So then I started thinking maybe I was wrong on the tribulation too. Sure enough, you guys have convinced me I had it all wrong. So I've been redacting those parts as well, again finding those little tiny footnotes. I don't know how I could have been so blind for so long!



This particular footnote (in the red circle) read:

N17 Content expires in 70 AD

Since Revelation and Daniel contain so many pages that don't apply, crossing them out is going to be time consuming so I'm just going to rip all of those pages out of my Bible.

This has actually been kind of fun, like cleaning the expired milk cartons out of the fridge. Plus, my Bible is getting shorter and thinner by the day. Pretty soon it'll only take me 6 months instead of a whole year to read it from end to end!

Are there any other subjects I need to reconsider too? As long as I have the red pen and scissors out, I might as well go all the way...

 

[Persuaded]

Wrong,,,Wrong,,Wrong...Jesus tells us himself of the Great Tribulations in Matthew 24:21 " For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

So what did I say that does not agree with Matthew 24:21?

 

[Bladerunner]

In another thread (on the subject of tongues and prophecy) those against them finally convinced me they had ceased and weren't for us today. So I started going thru my Bible to cross out all the parts that spoke of them, since they no longer applied. Then I noticed that I evidently hadn't read scripture very closely, because I started to notice little fine print footnotes that confirmed it. So then I started thinking maybe I was wrong on the tribulation too. Sure enough, you guys have convinced me I had it all wrong. So I've been redacting those parts as well, again finding those little tiny footnotes. I don't know how I could have been so blind for so long!

View attachment 163368

This particular footnote (in the red circle) read:

N17 Content expires in 70 AD

Since Revelation and Daniel contain so many pages that don't apply, crossing them out is going to be time consuming so I'm just going to rip all of those pages out of my Bible.

This has actually been kind of fun, like cleaning the expired milk cartons out of the fridge. Plus, my Bible is getting shorter and thinner by the day. Pretty soon it'll only take me 6 months instead of a whole year to read it from end to end!

Are there any other subjects I need to reconsider too? As long as I have the red pen and scissors out, I might as well go all the way...

It is going to take a while,,,,,there are a little more than 1800 Prophecies in the Bible (OT&NT). Why not just throw the whole book away. There are others that possibly would fit????????????//

 

[Bladerunner]

So what did I say that does not agree with Matthew 24:21?

Oh my,,,I apologize to you, I read it wrong and thought you were denouncing the Word of God. Again, I am sorry for the post.

 

[Persuaded]

Oh my,,,I apologize to you, I read it wrong and thought you were denouncing the Word of God. Again, I am sorry for the post.

No problem!
We all make mistakes.
I made a mistake once!

 

[Bladerunner]

No problem!
We all make mistakes.
I made a mistake once!

It seems the older I get , the more mistakes I make. Thanks for your understanding..

 

[RickyZ]

It is going to take a while,,,,,there are a little more than 1800 Prophecies in the Bible (OT&NT). Why not just throw the whole book away. There are others that possibly would fit????????????//

That's a good question. Just how much of God's word can we dismiss as not applying to us before it makes more sense to find something that does apply better?

 

[samuel23]

In order to prove the pre-trib position one does not need to quote all kinds of scriptures, one needs to only prove that the apostle Paul in the Thess letters wrote of a return of Christ that preceded and was different then the return of Christ that Jesus gave the church through the apostles. Again, the way to prove the pre-trib rapture position is to prove that the apostle Paul in the Thess letters wrote of a return of Christ that preceded and was different then the return of Christ that Jesus gave the church through the apostles...if you can do that I will go back to being pre-trib. Waiting for the evidence, prove that Paul writing to the Thess described a return of Christ that preceded and was different then the return of Christ that Jesus gave the church through the apostles.

 

[pottersclay]

If I may I would like to take another approach on the same matter.

[h=2]The Rapture and the Jewish Wedding - End Times[/h]bridalcovenant.com/wedding1.html
The Rapture and the Jewish Wedding. ... The Wedding Ceremony ... Understandingancient Jewish wedding practices makes the meaning of Scripture clear.