Debating Original Sin

[QuestionTime]

Greetings,

I have always believed in 'Original Sin' because that was what I have always been taught. But thinking about it has always caused a "twitch in my brain." Basically, it seems to me that if the doctrine of Original Sin is true, then men are not to be blamed for having a Sinful Nature. Now, it's true that all Actual Sins result from our Sin Nature; therefore if men cannot be blamed for Original Sin, they cannot be blamed for Actual Sin either.

The reality is that I cannot believe that God would be just to force us to be born with Original Sin. As well, if all men are born with this Sin Nature, it then becomes God's fault that we have been hurt by other people who were born sinners. It's then God's fault for allowing myself to be given up for adoption, because God caused my birthmother to be born a sinner.

Believing in Original Sin is not allowing me to see God as a just and loving God. The blame has got to lay upon us/me for our/my Sinful Nature, and not upon God for our sins.

Anyway, I found an excellent book online and I will post a short quote from the book (emphasis mine):

The Bible teaches that all men originate their own moral depravity. Gen. 6:12, Gen. 8:21, Deut. 32:5, Psalm 14:1-3, Rom. 3:23, Eccl. 7:29. The Bible teaches that men sin and corrupt themselves. In fact, early in mankind's history upon the earth men had become so corrupt that God sent a flood to destroy them.

I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth. Gen. 6:7.

Observe that God was angry with "man whom I have created." Certainly he was not angry with them because of the nature with which he had created them. No, it was because they had corrupted themselves that God was angry with them.

The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth and behold it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. Gen. 6:11, 12.

To corrupt means to make morally depraved. It means to pervert what is good and upright. It means to make unclean what was once clean. It means to spoil what was once good and unspoiled. The word corrupt always implies a former state that was unspoiled, clean, good, or upright. It is never used to speak of the original created nature of man. It speaks of what man has become because of spoiling or perverting the nature with which he was created.

Moral beings have never needed a sinful nature to make them sin. The first sin ever committed was committed by the devil. He did not have a sinful nature to make him sin. Then, a third of the angels fell. They did not have a sinful nature to make them sin. Then both Adam and Eve sinned. They did not have a sinful nature to make them sin. Then, why should it be thought necessary for men to be born with a sinful nature to account for their sins? The Bible does not teach that men must have a sinful nature in order to sin; it teaches that men sin in spite of a good nature:

Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. Eccl. 7:29

Quest

[QuestionTime]

Many will point to the scripture verse below as defense of Original Sin. But let's consider interpreting the scripture another way.

Rom 5:
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Different interpretation:

Rom 5:
19For as by one angel's disobedience (satan) many were made sinners (1/3 of the angels).

Truly it was through the disobedience of satan that sin entered the universe and many fell because of it.

Furthermore, it was not by physical descendance that we are made righteous by Christ, so why should it be so with Adam?

Quest

[QuestionTime]

More info from elsewhere on the web:

Paul informs us in Romans.7v9-12. v9 “I was once alive (“ezon pote”) without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died; v10 the very commandment which promised life proved to be death to me. v11 For sin, finding opportunity in the commandment, deceived me and by it killed me. v12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good.”

In Romans.7v9., “I was alive,” is the imperfect active, “ezon” 2198. Paul is speaking of the time, when as an infant, he did not know the difference between right and wrong; this was before his conscience awoke and he became morally responsible for his actions. (“Without,” is “choris” 5565, an adverb meaning without, apart, separate). Paul says he was alive to God in his period of childlike innocence, until God’s Law revealed right and wrong to him, and he did the wrong, and died spiritually.

N.B. Rom.5v13-14. v13 “For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. v14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.”

See Rom.4v15. “For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.”

When “the commandment came,” and was applied to Paul’s heart and conscience, and Paul knew right from wrong, “sin revived, (“he” 3588, “hamartia” 266, “anezesen” 326). Sin came to life; the period of innocence was over, and because Paul had broken the Law, he died spiritually. The word “anazao” 326, means to live again, it is usually applied to a renewal of life, Rom.14v19; Luke.15v24,32., but here it means sin, which was before dormant, was now quickened into life. The Jews thought that the Law would sanctify and give comfort to the soul, but both Jesus and Paul say that the broken law produced guilt, woe, and a bad conscience. “And I died,” Paul had become conscious of his sin through his violation of The Law, and realised that it brought about his spiritual death.

Paul here talks about his own consciousness of sin. As a child, he did not really understand the Law, or God’s purpose in giving the Law. The failure to understand the demands of the Law is not confined to children. The young adult, the rich young ruler, mistakenly asserted, "I have observed all these things from my youth." Mk.10v20. Mt.19v20. Lk.18v21. There came a day in Paul's life when God’s command, "Thou shalt not covet," condemned him, and revealed that he was not living according to that command. Through the commandment, Paul realised that sin had first deceived him, and then had brought about his spiritual death. Satan had been behind this, and his objective was the eternal ruin of all humanity.

Quest

[QuestionTime]

A brother from my old church just emailed me an excellent verse on this topic:

Deuteronomy 1:39
Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

WigglesTime

[Consumed]

"if we take" every thought captive that exalts itself above the knowledge of God, casting it down we would not sin. Started with Adam and Eve, still goes on today, What God actually says and means is lost to us when we listen to ourselves/peoples interpretations of what His Word actually says. Only took the serpent to twist the truth, bang, sin entered,why? Cause that dart the serpent threw at Adam and Eve wasn't taken captive, and even if they weren't sure they still had the option to inquire from the Lord directly as is the case to this very day, that option is left open for us to overcome sin by applying that principle in itself. tree of life v tree of knowledge...

Originally Posted by QuestionTime

Many will point to the scripture verse below as defense of Original Sin. But let's consider interpreting the scripture another way.

Rom 5:
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Different interpretation:

Rom 5:
19For as by one angel's disobedience (satan) many were made sinners (1/3 of the angels).

Truly it was through the disobedience of satan that sin entered the universe and many fell because of it.

Furthermore, it was not by physical descendance that we are made righteous by Christ, so why should it be so with Adam?

Quest

I think this interpretation is extreme. There is nothing in the language nor the context that would support this.

[QuestionTime]

Originally Posted by charisenexcelcis

I think this interpretation is extreme. There is nothing in the language nor the context that would support this.

Well, that's just an example. But, because of satan's sin, the other angels were exposed to sin and were then able to make a choice to sin. There was no genetic inheritance of sin between the angels.

As well, there is nothing in the language nor the context that proves that men inherited a sinful nature either. Just because many became sinners doesn't mean they acquired a sin nature.

How can you feel guilty for your sins Charise if you were given a sinful nature and had no choice but to sin? That's my difficulty.

Quest

[QuestionTime]

Comical Video On Original Sin LOL:
YouTube - New Meaning of Original Sin

Quest

The Scripture says in John 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but rather so that through him, the world might be saved. 18 Those who trust in him are not judged; those who do not trust have been judged already, in that they have not trusted in the one who is God's only and unique Son.And in Acts the standard is perfection... we have all fallen short of the glory of G-d... Yeshua ...perfection is the glory. No-one has to choose to be Saved however the Scripture says they are already condemned and accepting Yeshua is the only way out of being condemned. The free gift of salvation is the greatest act of love mankind will ever know... a perfect g-d stepped out of heaven and all it's glory became a human... now in human form forever (well the G-d Man)...OY!!!... equivalent of a human becoming an earthworm..... just so there could be a way of redemption for mankind... no you do not have to believe that is between you and Him ... but the Scripture says Romans 5:12-21 Here is how it works: it was through one individual that sin entered the world, and through sin, death; and in this way death passed through to the whole human race, inasmuch as everyone sinned. 13 Sin was indeed present in the world before Torah was given, but sin is not counted as such when there is no Torah. 14 Nevertheless death ruled from Adam until Moshe, even over those whose sinning was not exactly like Adam's violation of a direct command. In this, Adam prefigured the one who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offence. For if, because of one man's offence, many died, then how much more has God's grace, that is, the gracious gift of one man, Yeshua the Messiah, overflowed to many! 16 No, the free gift is not like what resulted from one man's sinning; for from one sinner came judgment that brought condemnation; but the free gift came after many offences and brought acquittal. 17 For if, because of the offence of one man, death ruled through that one man; how much more will those receiving the overflowing grace, that is, the gift of being considered righteous, rule in life through the one man Yeshua the Messiah! 18 In other words, just as it was through one offence that all people came under condemnation, so also it is through one righteous act that all people come to be considered righteous. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man, many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the other man, many will be made righteous. 20 And the Torah came into the picture so that the offence would proliferate; but where sin proliferated, grace proliferated even more. 21 All this happened so that just as sin ruled by means of death, so also grace might rule through causing people to be considered righteous, so that they might have eternal life, through Yeshua the Messiah, our Lord.G-d Himself gave us His Word so it truly is between you and Him but this is what His Word says.... We see the slandered of what is sin through the Torah and it doesn't matter what Adam did it matters what you do in the light of G-d's standard and we are freed from sin and death through Yeshua!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[QuestionTime]

[QuestionTime]

Originally Posted by mcubed

Scripture says Romans 5:12-21 Here is how it works: it was through one individual that sin entered the world, and through sin, death; and in this way death passed through to the whole human race, inasmuch as everyone sinned. 13 Sin was indeed present in the world before Torah was given, but sin is not counted as such when there is no Torah. 14 Nevertheless death ruled from Adam until Moshe, even over those whose sinning was not exactly like Adam's violation of a direct command. In this, Adam prefigured the one who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offence. For if, because of one man's offence, many died, then how much more has God's grace, that is, the gracious gift of one man, Yeshua the Messiah, overflowed to many! 16 No, the free gift is not like what resulted from one man's sinning; for from one sinner came judgment that brought condemnation; but the free gift came after many offences and brought acquittal. 17 For if, because of the offence of one man, death ruled through that one man; how much more will those receiving the overflowing grace, that is, the gift of being considered righteous, rule in life through the one man Yeshua the Messiah! 18 In other words, just as it was through one offence that all people came under condemnation, so also it is through one righteous act that all people come to be considered righteous. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man, many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the other man, many will be made righteous. 20 And the Torah came into the picture so that the offence would proliferate; but where sin proliferated, grace proliferated even more.

In other words, just as it was through one offence that all people came under condemnation, so also it is through one righteous act that all people come to be considered righteous.

This quote sounds like Universalism. Adam didn't force everyone to be sinners, and Jesus doesn't force every man to be righteous.

Quest

Originally Posted by QuestionTime

In other words, just as it was through one offence that all people came under condemnation, so also it is through one righteous act that all people come to be considered righteous.

This quote sounds like Universalism. Adam didn't force everyone to be sinners, and Jesus doesn't force every man to be righteous.

Quest

To be honest I do not know "Christian" theology I am Jewish ... If you want to explain Universalism that would be great!

I do not mean that like that... I am on here because G-d is working in me to love "Christians".... but I really do not know all of your theology....

[QuestionTime]

Originally Posted by mcubed

To be honest I do not know "Christian" theology I am Jewish ... If you want to explain Universalism that would be great!

Greetings MCubed,

You don't need to know theology to love G-d or people. Theology isn't for everyone, and it can even be harmful if people trust in their knowledge rather than in the blood of the passover lamb to save them. (Jesus is our passover lamb, and we trust in His blood to save us from sin and hell).

Mainstream Christianity believes that evil men are sent to hell forever. Universalism believes that men are only sent to hell for a time, and then they are purged from sin and brought into heaven.

Universalism is a "minority doctrine" rejected by the vast majority of Christianity, because the majority believe that this teaching is contrary to what the Bible is teaching.

G-d bless!

[Pete_Martinez]

1Co 15:21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. (Doesn't all mean all always?)

Be careful when you play with original sin or you'll fall into Pelagianism.

[QuestionTime]

Originally Posted by Pete_Martinez

1Co 15:21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. (Doesn't all mean all always?)

Be careful when you play with original sin or you'll fall into Pelagianism.

I saw a good video talking about this part of scripture today. These verses describe physical death, not spiritual. Will all be made Spiritually alive? No. Will all be made physically alive? Yes, because of the resurrection to judgment.

I believe that this verse does more to support Universalism than Calvinism, because if it's interpreted as all being made Spiritually alive, then all go to heaven in the end.

Quest

[Pete_Martinez]

Originally Posted by QuestionTime

I saw a good video talking about this part of scripture today. These verses describe physical death, not spiritual. Will all be made Spiritually alive? No. Will all be made physically alive? Yes, because of the resurrection to judgment.

I believe that this verse does more to support Universalism than Calvinism, because if it's interpreted as all being made Spiritually alive, then all go to heaven in the end.

Quest

Yes that does make a lot of sense.

Basically, it seems to me that if the doctrine of Original Sin is true, then men are not to be blamed for having a Sinful Nature. Now, it's true that all Actual Sins result from our Sin Nature; therefore if men cannot be blamed for Original Sin, they cannot be blamed for Actual Sin either.

Original Sin can also be thought of not just as some historical action but a congenital state of imperfection. In other words, it is not something for which you might be blamed (who blames the sick?) but it is still an impediment to communion with perfection.

Though, regarding blame - even if we don't assign blame to man, he is still fit to be judged. We don't blame a fire for burning us, yet we won't let it burn uncontrolled. I'm not sure blame is the primary question.

[phil36]

Originally Posted by QuestionTime

More info from elsewhere on the web:

Paul informs us in Romans.7v9-12. v9 “I was once alive (“ezon pote”) without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died; v10 the very commandment which promised life proved to be death to me. v11 For sin, finding opportunity in the commandment, deceived me and by it killed me. v12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good.”

In Romans.7v9., “I was alive,” is the imperfect active, “ezon” 2198. Paul is speaking of the time, when as an infant, he did not know the difference between right and wrong; this was before his conscience awoke and he became morally responsible for his actions. (“Without,” is “choris” 5565, an adverb meaning without, apart, separate). Paul says he was alive to God in his period of childlike innocence, until God’s Law revealed right and wrong to him, and he did the wrong, and died spiritually.

N.B. Rom.5v13-14. v13 “For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. v14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.”

See Rom.4v15. “For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.”

When “the commandment came,” and was applied to Paul’s heart and conscience, and Paul knew right from wrong, “sin revived, (“he” 3588, “hamartia” 266, “anezesen” 326). Sin came to life; the period of innocence was over, and because Paul had broken the Law, he died spiritually. The word “anazao” 326, means to live again, it is usually applied to a renewal of life, Rom.14v19; Luke.15v24,32., but here it means sin, which was before dormant, was now quickened into life. The Jews thought that the Law would sanctify and give comfort to the soul, but both Jesus and Paul say that the broken law produced guilt, woe, and a bad conscience. “And I died,” Paul had become conscious of his sin through his violation of The Law, and realised that it brought about his spiritual death.

Paul here talks about his own consciousness of sin. As a child, he did not really understand the Law, or God’s purpose in giving the Law. The failure to understand the demands of the Law is not confined to children. The young adult, the rich young ruler, mistakenly asserted, "I have observed all these things from my youth." Mk.10v20. Mt.19v20. Lk.18v21. There came a day in Paul's life when God’s command, "Thou shalt not covet," condemned him, and revealed that he was not living according to that command. Through the commandment, Paul realised that sin had first deceived him, and then had brought about his spiritual death. Satan had been behind this, and his objective was the eternal ruin of all humanity.

Quest

I started reading the book, I must admit by the time I got to Chapter 3 (above) I was cringing, the title for this chapter is : 'Jesus and Paul taught that children are born spiritually alive to God'. and of course the title of the book is as you say 'The Disastrous effects of original sin'.

There are 2 Major problems here.

1. Test types of thought have been with the church since nearly its inception and regarded as heresy.
2. The health and wealth prosperity teachers love these types of books, as they do not believe in original sin.. it helps their money grabbing causes

Phil

[Lauren]

Excellent topic Quest! This has been in my thoughts lately as well, and while I'm sorry I don't have anything to add, I'll be very interested in reading everyone's thoughts on it. Thanks for starting this thread!