Debating Original Sin

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phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#21
The first thing we need to look at is 'what is original sin'? People have wrongly assumed it is a Calvinist teaching, well that just springs from ignorance or maybe even arrogance.

I love how John Wesley upholds original sin.

Adam and Eve committed the first sin (huamnly speaking) so it is original to humans. that is why it is called 'original sin' ok, I can't see how anyone can argue against this!


Here is what John Wesley upheld: " Original sin standeth not in the following of Adam (as the Pelagians do vainly talk), but it is the corruption of the nature of every man, that naturally is engendered of the offspring of Adam, whereby man is very far gone from original righteousness, and of his own nature inclined to evil, and that continually" (Articles of religion, used by Wesley and adopted by the Methodist Church).


Through this original sin, all things where broke, our relationship with each other and are relationship with God. Yet through this all humanity strives for Eden to be in perfect relationship, there is a spark of the divine image puling them but the sin nature enslaves them.

That is just a snippet on original sin, all evangelicals believe in original sin. yet some don't and they become prevalent because of scriptural ignorance.

All the great teachers from our age back to the Apostle Paul further attest to original sin, from John Wesley,John Stott,Charles Spurgeon,I Howard Marshall,John Calvin, Martin Luther and so on. Both Calvinists and non Calvinists.

We have to remember the greatest attack on the Bible has been on Genesis, this is the building block which all scripture sits upon, especially chapters 1,2 and 3.

And the worst kind of attacks and Scriptural twisting come from within the church hence we have the the 'lone cowboys' preaching a false Gospel.

anyhow I hope that has clarified that original sin is upheld by both Arninians and Calvinists..

On a last note go and find out about the heretic 'Pelagious' all these heresies come back to church in one form or another and John Wesley Himself agreed so!

In Love

Phil
 

QuestionTime

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2010
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#22
I started reading the book, I must admit by the time I got to Chapter 3 (above) I was cringing, the title for this chapter is : 'Jesus and Paul taught that children are born spiritually alive to God'. and of course the title of the book is as you say 'The Disastrous effects of original sin'.

There are 2 Major problems here.

1. Test types of thought have been with the church since nearly its inception and regarded as heresy.
2. The health and wealth prosperity teachers love these types of books, as they do not believe in original sin.. it helps their money grabbing causes :)

Phil

1. What are "test types of thought?"
2. But the Catholic Church loves Augustine's teaching because it promotes infant baptism. Please also explain why it helps make prosperity preachers get more money?

Quest
 

QuestionTime

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2010
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#23
Original Sin can also be thought of not just as some historical action but a congenital state of imperfection. In other words, it is not something for which you might be blamed (who blames the sick?) but it is still an impediment to communion with perfection.

Though, regarding blame - even if we don't assign blame to man, he is still fit to be judged. We don't blame a fire for burning us, yet we won't let it burn uncontrolled. I'm not sure blame is the primary question.
But it's not my fault that I am fit to be judged (sick), according to Original Sin. How then can I feel God is dealing justly with me? How can you feel God is dealing justly with you Karuna?

I must be blamed and God must be shown Righteous.

Also, can we really believe that God weaves together a baby in the womb with a sinful nature?

Deuteronomy 1:39
Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.


Quest
 

QuestionTime

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2010
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#24
Excellent topic Quest! This has been in my thoughts lately as well, and while I'm sorry I don't have anything to add, I'll be very interested in reading everyone's thoughts on it. Thanks for starting this thread!
Why is it in your thoughts? Have you wondered how you can be declared guilty before God when you - apparently - have done no wrong?

Man must be brought low and declared willful rebels. I think the scripture as a whole tells us that mankind has willfully rebelled. I think anything less than laying 100% blame on me is to lay blame on God.

Quest
 

QuestionTime

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2010
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#25
Gen 3:
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Deut 1:

39Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

The Bible doesn't say that all men are become as one of us, it says the man is become one of us.

I don't agree with every Pelagius stood for, but I think there is a happier median to be found between the two beliefs.


The one great problem of original sin is that it clashes with man's irresistible convictions of justice. These innate, God-given convictions affirm to us irresistibly that it is impossible to hold a man responsible for a deed that he did not commit and that was committed thousands of years before he was born and came into existence. So the theologians who defend the theory of original sin have the impossible task of justifying God for doing what their own conscience affirms he could not be just in doing.
 
M

mercer

Guest
#26
The first original sin was sex : their eyes were open, they covered their privates with fig leaves, the serpents seed will have emnity with the womens seed . why would GOD say the serpents seed... hmmmm
 

QuestionTime

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2010
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#27
Here is more proof that children don't inherit corruption. Do children know that they are naked? But there comes a day when children get self-realization. It would be better to say it was that day when they inherit Original Sin, than to say that they inherit it at birth.

Gen 3:
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
KJV


The first original sin was sex : their eyes were open, they covered their privates with fig leaves, the serpents seed will have emnity with the womens seed . why would GOD say the serpents seed... hmmmm

This is interesting, but best left for another thread.
 
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Oct 1, 2009
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#28
Well this from Psalms grabs my attention...
Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
And yet...
Psa 22:10 On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you have been my God.
Psa 71:6 Upon you I have leaned from before my birth; you are he who took me from my mother's womb. My praise is continually of you
No Calvinism intended.
 
K

karuna

Guest
#29
But it's not my fault that I am fit to be judged (sick), according to Original Sin. How then can I feel God is dealing justly with me? How can you feel God is dealing justly with you Karuna?
For the same reason that I could eventually understand it if earthly authorities quarantined me for a disease that I contracted through no fault of my own. Blame, again, is not the primary question.

I must be blamed and God must be shown Righteous.
We must be judged. I'm reminded of the line in Job that compares us to pottery. We can judge pottery without ascribing any sort of blame to its imperfections. If we want to toss pottery out, we don't have to blame it - we merely have to notice that it's imperfect.

Also, can we really believe that God weaves together a baby in the womb with a sinful nature?
Yes. Again, "original sin" can and has been understood as a state of imperfection, obtained accidentally through proximity. Our nature is not what was intended - our very beings miss the mark. This may not be on a list of sins, but it is sin.
 
K

karuna

Guest
#30
Let me add - suppose a child dies in the womb. Will that child pass unchanged into heaven or will he need to be changed? Fine, the baby has committed no sin, but does anyone seriously believe he's translated as is into heaven and left to crawl around on golden streets?

Do we blame the baby? No. But it does need to be "fixed."
 
L

Lauren

Guest
#31
Why is it in your thoughts? Have you wondered how you can be declared guilty before God when you - apparently - have done no wrong?
Nope, just a desire to more fully understand the fall of man. :)
 

QuestionTime

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2010
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#32
Well this from Psalms grabs my attention...
Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
And yet...
Psa 22:10 On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you have been my God.
Psa 71:6 Upon you I have leaned from before my birth; you are he who took me from my mother's womb. My praise is continually of you
No Calvinism intended.
But the Psalmists use "figurative language." Look at these verses:

Psa 51:
7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

Will David literally be cleansed from sin if he is purged with hyssop? Did God literally break his bones?

Even if verse 51 isn't figurative language, it says his mother conceived him in sin. That sounds like the way I was conceived also. (through a sinful act). I don't think that scripture necessarily means that every human being is conceived in sin.

How can David truly be repentant if he is blaming others for his sinful nature? Is that not what Adam also did when God charged him for eating the apple?

Quest
 

DinoDillinger

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
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#33
1Co 15:21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. (Doesn't all mean all always?)

Be careful when you play with original sin or you'll fall into Pelagianism.
This verse does not support universalism.

I have highlighted why.

Everyone in Christ shall be made alive.

This does not mean the every person in the world is made alive by Christ, but those who are actually IN Christ.

Btw QT, lean not on your own understanding.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#34

1. What are "test types of thought?"
2. But the Catholic Church loves Augustine's teaching because it promotes infant baptism. Please also explain why it helps make prosperity preachers get more money?

Quest

To answer your question just read what prosperity teachers believe about original sin, there are numerous books in print. yep the Catholic church loves Augustine ( They also love the teaching of Jesus, so I am not sure what your point is with that one?
)
aswell, remember also, there a lot of Christian denominations that still do infant Baptism! They also love the teaching of Jesus, so I am not sure what your point is with that one?

'Test types of thought' that was bad grammar on my part, alot of these I write quickly as I am usually at work. it should read "Test, Different types of thought".

Plus, don't forget your hero believes in original sin..John Wesley?

Phil
 
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QuestionTime

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2010
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#35
This verse does not support universalism.

I have highlighted why.

Everyone in Christ shall be made alive.

This does not mean the every person in the world is made alive by Christ, but those who are actually IN Christ.
I think this is a stretch. From what I have been briefly taught on the subject, we must employ "hermeneutics" to this scripture. You can't interpret the first part of a comparison one way and then interpret the second part another way.

If all men die in Adam, all men rise in Christ. Besides, it doesn't say: All that were in Adam will die, and all that are in Christ will rise.

I don't want to lean to my own understanding either. But I can't help hating God if Original Sin is true.

Quest
 

DinoDillinger

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
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#36
I think this is a stretch. From what I have been briefly taught on the subject, we must employ "hermeneutics" to this scripture. You can't interpret the first part of a comparison one way and then interpret the second part another way.

If all men die in Adam, all men rise in Christ. Besides, it doesn't say: All that were in Adam will die, and all that are in Christ will rise.

I don't want to lean to my own understanding either. But I can't help hating God if Original Sin is true.

Quest
I think you could very well interept the first part of that verse the same way. The question is, who is in Adam?

Look at Rom. 8:13 For if you live by the flesh you will die; but if you by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live.

In Genesis it says the ground is cursed for your sake. How does a fallen world benefit you? Well you see the wages of sin (what it produces) in the world and in yourself. You know that separation from God is bad. I heard someone once say that sin is not really a force but a absence of God. I don't know if I totally agree with that or not but you see what happens when God is absent from a man's soul. I think this is supposed to show you that you need God. God is good for you.

Jesus said that if anyone will come after Him they must humble themselves as a little child. You don't hate God because of original sin, you hate God because you are evil and He is good. So humble yourself and seek the truth with all your might and God will answer you.
 

DinoDillinger

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2009
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#37
Jeremiah 18
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying:
6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the LORD. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel!
 
M

Malkiel

Guest
#38
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 1 John 2:16

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:23

I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:25

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. Galatians 5:17

Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; 1 Peter, 2:11

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. Romans 8:7

Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak. Matthew 26:41

For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Romans 7:19

Romans 5-
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offense, so also is the free gift: for if through the offense of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

All of these verses make one thing very clear in my own mind. Adam's transgression and man's fall from grace are hinting at man's nature. We are spiritual beings, and we are fleshly beings and these two sides war with each other constantly. However (since that first temptation in the garden of Eden) our natural inclination is to pursue and fulfill the desires of the flesh. Original sin is a reference to the fact that we were not created this way. We did not become this way until we gave into temptation and chose to disobey God. Obviously the "we" I'm referring to is a generalized reference to us as a species since we did not personally take that bite. However, that became the condition of man from that moment forward and we all inherit it.

It also makes clear that if left to our own devices, we can not help but to sin. Think about it. It's almost an automatic response within our minds. We are prideful, greedy, lustful and covetous by nature. It is only through the grace of God, given us through our acceptance of Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior that we can be made clean. It is only by acknowledging our sinful nature, and repenting that we grow closer to God and are able to begin subduing those destructive thoughts and tendencies.

Personally, I've never seen the point in entertaining some of these questions but I can understand why others might. Not all scripture is literal, and not all of it is figurative or symbolic. However one thing will always hold true. We are told to use scripture to interpret scripture, rather than leaning toward our own understanding and interpretations. Ultimately, it's a matter of faith to read the scripture and accept it.
 

QuestionTime

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2010
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#39
Rom 1:
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

This is not talking about Adam and Eve, but about their descendants. This is proven by this comment: "the invisible things of Him." He was not invisible to Adam and Eve in the garden.

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

It says that men "became vain" in their imaginations. They knew God, but they didn't glorify Him as God, and then they "became vain."

22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,


They "became fools."

26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

It was after they "knew God" and "became vain" in their imaginations that God "gave them up" unto vile affections (Sinful Nature?)
 
Oct 1, 2009
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#40
Rom 1:
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

This is not talking about Adam and Eve, but about their descendants. This is proven by this comment: "the invisible things of Him." He was not invisible to Adam and Eve in the garden.

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

It says that men "became vain" in their imaginations. They knew God, but they didn't glorify Him as God, and then they "became vain."

22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,


They "became fools."

26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

It was after they "knew God" and "became vain" in their imaginations that God "gave them up" unto vile affections (Sinful Nature?)
I'm so vaiiiiiiiiiiiiiin... I probably think this post is about me.
Sorry sorry... that song has been playing at work.