Not By Works

[Chris1975]

Unfortunately many works-based believers have used Ananias and Sapphira for trying to instill fear and condemnation into the believers.

Here is a Christ-focused view of this story. I like to use this site as it has at the bottom of the article where we can ask questions. We usually have the same questions and sometimes I learn a lot there too.

What about Ananias and Sapphira?

Recently in Connecticut, a pastor stood in front of his church and confessed to the sin of adultery. Then the pastor fell down dead, right in front of everyone. This proves that God expects his people to live holy lives and if they don’t, he’ll kill them.

Of course, that’s complete nonsense. The story is true – a Connecticut pastor really did die – but the interpretation is all wrong. The fact is, God doesn’t treat us as our sins deserve. But what are we to make of Ananias and Sapphira who, like the poor pastor, dropped dead in a church (Acts 5:1-11)?

The bizarre deaths of Ananias and Sapphira have been debated for 2,000 years. Why did they die? Did God kill them? Why did God kill them? Why is this story in the Bible? Am I supposed to learn something from it? What? Will God kill me if I lie?

Questions like these have provided sermon material for countless fear-mongers. “God killed Ananias and Sapphira because they sinned and if you’re not careful he’ll kill you too!

So fear God and behave yourself.” Has there ever been a more damnable lie inflicted on those whom God loves? (Actually, I can think of several worse lies.)

Unpunishable on account of Jesus

I could give you a hundred scriptures to show you that God did not kill Ananias and Sapphira for their sins and to assure you that he won’t kill you for yours, but three should suffice:

(God) doesn’t punish us as our sins deserve. (Psalm 103:10, CEV)

The punishment that brought us peace was on him… (Isa 53:5b)

God is not counting people’s sins against them. (2 Cor 5:19b)

The very good news of Jesus is that your sins and my sins and the sins of that Connecticut pastor and the sins of Ananias and Sapphira were condemned on the cross and there is nothing left to condemn! God was angry with your sins, which is why he poured out his wrath and dealt with them once and for all at Calvary (Rom 8:3).


Those who accuse God of killing sinners are confused about the cross. God doesn’t kill sinners, he saves sinners. God doesn’t hate sinners, he loves them!

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Rom 5:8)

If God killed Ananias and Sapphira then the Bible is wrong and Jesus is not the Lamb of God who carried the sins of the world. (If you’re wondering about Herod, read this.)

There’s no shortage of sinners in this world. Why would God kill one couple and leave the rest alone?

I’ve heard it said that God killed Ananias and Sapphira to warn and purify the infant church. By making an example out of these hypocrites, the church would be filled with a holy fear and kept safe from liars and cheats.

If so, then God failed spectacularly. Liars, cheats and hypocrites have always been with us, and there were plenty in the New Testament church.

I’ve also heard it said that God set up this killing to establish the authority of his apostles. Never mind that Peter had been commissioned by the Lord and filled with the Holy Spirit. Like a kid going through a gangster initiation he had to kill someone to establish his bona fides.

How absurd! How utterly inconsistent with the message Peter had been commissioned to preach.

Meanwhile back in Connecticut

People sometimes ask me, “Did God kill Ananias and Sapphira?” When I reply in the negative I am invariably asked, “So who did?” as though there was some murder mystery to be solved. But the facts of their deaths may be more prosaic.

The pastor in Connecticut died from a sudden heart failure, which is very sad. Perhaps it was the stress of hiding a lie or losing his reputation that triggered the attack. At the time of his death there was speculation in the press that he didn’t plan to confess at all – the adultery was a long time ago – but he had been ambushed by church members who had heard about his affair.

Emotions were running high. There was shouting. The man died. Whatever happened, it’s a sad story. But I am struck by the similarities between the Connecticut story and the deaths of Ananias and Sapphira:

• By having a secret affair, you could argue that the pastor lied to his church and he lied to God, as did Ananias and Sapphira.
• The pastor was confronted by church members, as were Ananias and Sapphira.
• The pastor dropped down dead, just like Ananias and Sapphira.

As far as I know, no one is blaming God for the pastor’s death, so why would anyone blame him for the deaths of Ananias and Sapphira? If you must blame someone, blame sin. Sin kills people. Sin ruins marriages and destroys lives. Sin is bad.

And this is exactly why Jesus came – so that you might be free from the curse of sin and live. If there is any takeaway from the Ananias and Sapphira story, it’s that the wages of sin is death.

That’s the bad news. But the good news is that God is good, he doesn’t treat you as your sins deserve, and he freely gives life to sinners.

Here is the link if anyone is interested in the questions that arise.

https://escapetoreality.org/2015/04/09/what-about-ananias-and-sapphira/

And yet a plain reading of scripture would tell you something totally otherwise to the above filter. These are fables. For us to accept the above fable, God wrought immediate execution and then translated them instantaneously into His heavenly arms.

What then would the church in the books have to "Fear" ?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Remember the oft quoted John 3:16 [SUP]16 [/SUP]For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

- that's conditional. Belief is safety. Unbelief is condemnation

Now lets read further, together:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. [SUP]18 [/SUP]“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [SUP]19 [/SUP]And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. [SUP]21 [/SUP]But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”


- the linking of belief with obedience. You cannot go very far in the bible without stumbling across this again and again.
- so who are those who believe? It is those who DO the truth. Their deeds can be seen (consistent with James, isn't it)
- so who are those who don't believe? men who love darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

- stop lying to yourselves. You cannot have Christ and Disobedience.
- repent of this mindset before its too late.
- believe on Christ, sincerely. He will give you the power to walk in His ways.
- if however you love your sin, then you are free to believe in this other doctrine where obedience is 'optional' or possibly irrelevant. This will however not save you.

Nice try.

It says those who do not believe are in a state of condemnation already, it did not say they had salvation and lost it.

Jesus said in John 6 whoever believes will NEVER hunger, NEVER thirst Live FOREVER, NEVER DIE, HAS ETERNAL LIFE, and WILL BE RISEN ON THE LAST DAY.

did Jesus lie?

When are you going to stop trusting in yourself and start trusting in God? Why Mock God and his promise? you should be ashamed.

 

[Ariel82]

It's funny how you keep looking for the phrase "lost salvation" in the scriptures but fail to show any proof that the phrases "FAITH ALONE SAVES" and "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED" are found in the scriptures. Sorry bro but you can't stop anyone from praising God rather than finding fault in other peoples faith.

Romans 3:28 (NASB95)
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

And the word is "perservance" not OSAS

 

[Ariel82]

Nice try.

It says those who do not believe are in a state of condemnation already, it did not say they had salvation and lost it.

Jesus said in John 6 whoever believes will NEVER hunger, NEVER thirst Live FOREVER, NEVER DIE, HAS ETERNAL LIFE, and WILL BE RISEN ON THE LAST DAY.

did Jesus lie?

When are you going to stop trusting in yourself and start trusting in God? Why Mock God and his promise? you should be ashamed.

His post just said that if you are saved you would be obedient (which you know you could tell them that you agree with)...didn't see him post anything about losing salvation there but will go back and read thread..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's funny how you keep looking for the phrase "lost salvation" in the scriptures but fail to show any proof that the phrases "FAITH ALONE SAVES" and "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED" are found in the scriptures. Sorry bro but you can't stop anyone from praising God rather than finding fault in other peoples faith.

Lets see

By grave through faith alone

eph 2 8-9.. For we HAVE BEEN saved BY GRACE THROUGH faith, and not of ourselves, NOT OF WORKS< lest anyone should boast. (faith alone)

titus 3:5. Not by works of righteousness we have done, by by his mercy HE SAVED US through the washing and renewal of the HS

How are we washed?

John 3: 16, For God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him shall NEVER PERISH but has ETERNAL LIFE


Which also proves once saved always saved, Never die, has eternal life. Never and eternal are not symbolic terms, they are literal.

How about John 6.

Whoever believes in him will

NEVER HUNGER
NEVER THIRST
LIVE FOREVER
NEVER DIE
HAS ETERNAL LIFE
WILL BE RISEN ON THE LAST DAY

Yep OSAS is again proven

How about eph 1: 13 - 14 the seal of the spirit, who is our guarantee until the day of redemption (ressurection day) Yet OSAS is proven.

How bout John, I tell you these things so you KNOW YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.. Yep. OSAS IS proven.

I am not looking to find fault in anyones faith, I am looking to expose a false gospel.

A person who has faith in a false gospel will not get to heaven the gospel is to be damned (gal 1)

 

[Grace777x70]

And yet a plain reading of scripture would tell you something totally otherwise to the above filter. These are fables. For us to accept the above fable, God wrought immediate execution and then translated them instantaneously into His heavenly arms.

What then would the church in the books have to "Fear" ?

First of all..they were not Chrsitians.

You do realize that the true fear of the Lord is when we see His goodness being displayed to us?

We can watch a tornado hit a house and destroy it we would learn to fear that happening. This does not mean that God caused the tornado.

 

[Ariel82]

G777

Your story of Ananias and Sapphira is truly bizzare reading of it.

They sinned. God allowed them to die (passive) or God killing them (active) is still God doing it.

.God punishes sin or allows the consequences of sin to happen,

Those who follow the Holy Spirit have nothing to fear, but everyone else should expect either death or chastenment.

They are not the same.

Did you believe Ananias and Sapphira, will be in heaven?

 

[FranC]

Then we are not saved by grace, but by works, There is no way around this fact, If you say works are required to keep saved, you are teaching salvation by works.





Do you see if in the abrahamic covenant, In the davidic, In the new? Of course not.

Jesus did not say you wil have eternal life if you stay good and do all these works, He said IF you have faith in him.

Jesus did not say in john 6 you will never die and live forever if you do all these works, and keep in them, He said if we believe in him, and that he said was the work of God

Your making the new covenant a conditional covenant, Eternal life conditional life.

If the law could not save us, What makes anyone think a new law could save us, we could not keep the first, what makes us think we can keep any other.

The law still stands, if we want a conditional covenant, we have the law. And thats it,, And we have failed.. it will conbdemn you, That why paul taught so much against works..

if you want law, you will fail, I will fail, we will both fail and suffer the doom of hell..

or receive grace.

those are our only two options.

We are no longer under THE LAW, we are under GRACE.
But the law was NOT abolished.

So what's the difference?
The difference is that in the O.C. we could not keep the Law. We were slaves to sin. There was no way to follow God's wishes.
Men of the O.T. were saved by faith, just as we are today. Those who had faith, also followed the laws of God, as we do today.

If we are members of the N.C. we keep the Law through Jesus. We are no longer slaves to sin. We are slaves to God, which makes us friends to God.

We are still saved by faith. We are now together with the Holy Spirit, serving God. We could call this service a work. Or, call it what you like, we are still "working".
Romans 12:1 WE are a living sacrifice. We are to do everything for the glory of God. Everything we do is done for Him and is a work for Him.

Romans 5:1-5
We exult in our tribulations, bringing about perseverance, bringing about proven character and thus, hope.
Is this not a work?

In the O.C. the Law was written on stone.
In the N.C. the Law is still written by in our heart.
Ezekiel 36:26 It's the spirit within us that is different and helps us to follow the Law and this love for God makes it easy to follow the Law.(I'm not saying we never sin).
Jeremiah 31:33 We will know the Lord personally. Our INIQUITY will be forgiven. That deep rooted condition that causes us to sin.

Jesus Himself said He did not come to abolish the law. Mathew 5:17
It's just that with the N.C. we have a new power to keep it.

 

[Ariel82]

Keep believing that.

My faith is in God, God will never fail me, so it will never be shipwrecked.

I will always believe I am sinner, that will never change

I will always trust in god to save me, that will never change

Now. trusting God in certain areas of my life Yes, that can fall to the wayside, But my salvation is not dependent on that, I was born of blood. Blood can not be broken.

I disagree with one statement. You will not always be a sinner...one day you will be a saint and sin will have no power over you.

 

[Chris1975]

Nice try.

It says those who do not believe are in a state of condemnation already, it did not say they had salvation and lost it.

Jesus said in John 6 whoever believes will NEVER hunger, NEVER thirst Live FOREVER, NEVER DIE, HAS ETERNAL LIFE, and WILL BE RISEN ON THE LAST DAY.

did Jesus lie?

When are you going to stop trusting in yourself and start trusting in God? Why Mock God and his promise? you should be ashamed.

All premised on continual belief. An apostate no longer has belief, and falls away. Myriad of scriptures supporting this. Therefore he comes under condemnation. His covenant with the Lord is broken through his unbelief.

 

[Ariel82]

All premised on continual belief. An apostate no longer has belief, and falls away. Myriad of scriptures supporting this. Therefore he comes under condemnation. His covenant with the Lord is broken through his unbelief.

Where do people find this "belief" that saves and what is this faith in?

 

[Chris1975]

First of all..they were not Chrsitians.

You do realize that the true fear of the Lord is when we see His goodness being displayed to us?

We can watch a tornado hit a house and destroy it we would learn to fear that happening. This does not mean that God caused the tornado.

You are saying that Ananias and Sapphira were not Christians? Now that is really stretching the scriptures to breaking point. So are we to believe that they were just some random people (unbelievers) in Jerusalem that offended the Holy Spirit? Really??

The first step is to be honest with yourself.

Why were they to have sold their possessions and given to the Apostles if they WERE NOT in the church already?

Unbelievers lie and steal from each other daily. Why was this story relevant to the new church in Acts if they were unbelievers?

 

[Ariel82]

You can go to 120 point

It still does not say he lost his salvation.

It says God does not talk to him anymore. It does not say he is no longer saved..

Nice try, but no cigar. The prodigal son could not talk to his father either, and his father could not talk to him while he was away from him, He was still the son.

God stopped talking to saul as king of Isreal. thats it, Your trying to relate this to salvation. YOU CAN"T

Sure you can. Even though king Saul died an enemy to God. king David still called him, God's annointed.

Doesn't that imply that God saved even those who the world would condemn?

The question is would King Saul be sent to Heaven or Hell?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

His post just said that if you are saved you would be obedient (which you know you could tell them that you agree with)...didn't see him post anything about losing salvation there but will go back and read thread..

his response is to someone asking for scripture which proves someone had salvation and lost it..

 

[Chris1975]

Where do people find this "belief" that saves and what is this faith in?

This faith is in Jesus Christ the Lord. Romans 10v9

However people forget that within Romans 10v9 is the word "Lord". They are happy to have a saviour, but want none of His Lordship. And if we are to be honest, his Lordship is requires a response. Repentance and Obedience.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

G777

Your story of Ananias and Sapphira is truly bizzare reading of it.

They sinned. God allowed them to die (passive) or God killing them (active) is still God doing it.

.God punishes sin or allows the consequences of sin to happen,

Those who follow the Holy Spirit have nothing to fear, but everyone else should expect either death or chastenment.

They are not the same.

Did you believe Ananias and Sapphira, will be in heaven?

If they were saved, I do.

They lost their life on earth, But not in heaven.

if they were never saved, then the question I guess is mute

 

[Ariel82]

You are saying that Ananias and Sapphira were not Christians? Now that is really stretching the scriptures to breaking point. So are we to believe that they were just some random people (unbelievers) in Jerusalem that offended the Holy Spirit? Really??

The first step is to be honest with yourself.

Why were they to have sold their possessions and given to the Apostles if they WERE NOT in the church already?

Unbelievers lie and steal from each other daily. Why was this story relevant to the new church in Acts if they were unbelievers?

Why does Jesus say He will tell some folks "I do not KNOW YOU" to those who claim to do miracles in His name?

Fake believers like Judas Iscariot who go through the external motions for the power and money.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sure you can. Even though king Saul died an enemy to God. king David still called him, God's annointed.

Doesn't that imply that God saved even those who the world would condemn?

The question is would King Saul be sent to Heaven or Hell?

if he was saved he is in heaven, If not, he never was headed to heaven.

I would say he was saved, Because he had the HS, He let sin and pride catch up to him though, and he lost his blessing on earth.

 

[Grace777x70]

G777

Your story of Ananias and Sapphira is truly bizzare reading of it.

They sinned. God allowed them to die (passive) or God killing them (active) is still God doing it.

.God punishes sin or allows the consequences of sin to happen,

Those who follow the Holy Spirit have nothing to fear, but everyone else should expect either death or chastenment.

They are not the same.

Did you believe Ananias and Sapphira, will be in heaven?

God will allow you to kill your children too. We have a free will and to blame it on God is not wise.

The truth is "If God killed everyone for lying " - 99% of the church would be killed.

God already answered the sin problem on Christ on the cross. He bore our sins on His own body on the tree.

I have no idea where Ananias and Sapphira are but I do know that they were not Christians.

But everyone is free to believe what they want. I have done a thorough study of it and it's clear that they were not Christians. Jesus Himself said there would be tares in with the wheat.

Luke is very precise in his writings being a doctor. Luke writes there was a "certainman" when talking about Ananias. He throughout the book of Acts uses the term - there was a "certain disciple" when referring to believers.

Acts 5:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
Acts 9:10 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.

There are many examples of this in the book of Acts such as Acts 9:36 ; Acts 13:1 ' Acts 16:1 Luke differentiates between "certainmen" and certain disciples".

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I disagree with one statement. You will not always be a sinner...one day you will be a saint and sin will have no power over you.

yes, Amen to that sis!!

But I will be in heaven by then, and these discussion will never be had again..