Not By Works

[Ariel82]

This faith is in Jesus Christ the Lord. Romans 10v9

However people forget that within Romans 10v9 is the word "Lord". They are happy to have a saviour, but want none of His Lordship. And if we are to be honest, his Lordship is requires a response. Repentance and Obedience.

I don't think EG has a problem with the concept of Lordship salvation, but I could be wrong,

 

[FranC]

I believe that what we are doing sometimes - is we are taking "descriptions" of what the Christian life looks like when the fruit of the spirit is being manifested in and through us - in other words the life of Christ Himself being manifested.

We then take these "descriptions" and try to force people into manifesting these in order to say that they are saved or in a works-based belief system - in order to maintain being saved.

Good moral living is in every religion of the world. What these are doing is mimicking the "descriptions" of the Christian life and think by "doing these" we will be accepted or declared righteous.

There is also a religion called Christianity which tries to do the very same thing - tries to mimic the life of Christ instead of abiding in the Vine and having His life bear the fruit on us the branches because without Him we can do nothing.

Abiding in the Vine to me is seeing Christ for all that He has done and as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror - we see Him for who He truly is and we also see ourselves because we are one spirit with the Lord. 1 Cor. 6:17.

It is believing in Christ and all that He has already done for us by grace through faith - this releases His life to flow in and through us to a hurt and dying world that needs to know the love and grace our loving Father and Lord have for them. This is the fight of faith.

The Holy Spirit is the One who transforms us as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord. 2 Cor. 3:17-18. We participate in this with Him "for it is God who is at work in us both to will ( gives us the desire) and to do ( gives us the capability) to do His good pleasure. Phil 2:13

The kingdom of Gods works on this principle - we go to sleep and wake up and the fruit is there - how? We do not know how it grows - but it does.

Mark 4:26-28 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] And He was saying, "The kingdom of God is like a man who casts seed upon the soil;

[SUP]27 [/SUP] and he goes to bed at night and gets up by day, and the seed sprouts and grows—how, he himself does not know.

[SUP]28 [/SUP] "The soil produces crops by itself; first the blade, then the head, then the mature grain in the head.

Grace,
I very much see us as living IN THE KINGDOM. If we're members of the Kingdom, then we're to help in keeping that Kingdom as God would have it, working to maintain the Kingdom of God. Otherwise, what makes us different from the rest of the world?
I don't know what else to call this instead of works, works being how Jesus told us to be and what He told us to do.

If we're members of the Kingdom, we're TO DO. Whatever we want to call it, it IS a doing and it IS a being.

You again repeat the we are to believe in Christ and His finished work through faith.

Again I ask you:

What does it mean to BELIEVE in Christ??

John 6:29 JESUS said... "This is the work of God, that you BELIEVE in Him (Jesus) whom He (Father) has sent."
Please explain what BELIEVE means in the Greek that was spoken at that time so that Jesus' words could be kept in context.

Revelation 2:26 Jesus says: "He who keeps My deeds until the end, to him I will give authrity over the nations".

Throughout the entire N.T. the theme is that we must adhere to the teachings of Jesus, and of Paul.
Romans 16:19 Paul..."For the report of your obedience has reached all...therefore I am rejoicing."
Why? Because some were not obedient... Romans 15:31

We MUST obey. We can understand it however God allows us to,
but the bottom line is that we must obey and do as Jesus said.

 

[FranC]

Furthermore Peter, show me an instance where it happened, where God changed His mind toward a person that was saved by His Grace.

God doesn't change His mind.
Persons can change their mind.

 

[Chris1975]

if he was saved he is in heaven, If not, he never was headed to heaven.

I would say he was saved, Because he had the HS, He let sin and pride catch up to him though, and he lost his blessing on earth.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’


- was Saul an example of an overcomer?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We are no longer under THE LAW, we are under GRACE.
But the law was NOT abolished.

No one was ever saved by law, Ever maintained their salvation by law. or lost their salvation by not keeping the law.

So I am not sure what your point is.

Your right the law is not abolished, as long as people need led to christ, they will always need a tutor..

So what's the difference?
The difference is that in the O.C. we could not keep the Law. We were slaves to sin. There was no way to follow God's wishes.
Men of the O.T. were saved by faith, just as we are today. Those who had faith, also followed the laws of God, as we do today.

If we are members of the N.C. we keep the Law through Jesus. We are no longer slaves to sin. We are slaves to God, which makes us friends to God.

We are still saved by faith. We are now together with the Holy Spirit, serving God. We could call this service a work. Or, call it what you like, we are still "working".
Romans 12:1 WE are a living sacrifice. We are to do everything for the glory of God. Everything we do is done for Him and is a work for Him.

Romans 5:1-5
We exult in our tribulations, bringing about perseverance, bringing about proven character and thus, hope.
Is this not a work?

In the O.C. the Law was written on stone.
In the N.C. the Law is still written by in our heart.
Ezekiel 36:26 It's the spirit within us that is different and helps us to follow the Law and this love for God makes it easy to follow the Law.(I'm not saying we never sin).
Jeremiah 31:33 We will know the Lord personally. Our INIQUITY will be forgiven. That deep rooted condition that causes us to sin.

Jesus Himself said He did not come to abolish the law. Mathew 5:17
It's just that with the N.C. we have a new power to keep it.

You still can not keep the law as required (every word) thus the law today would still condemn you where you stand, and myself

I obey the law of love, inn doing so, I fulfill the law and prophets. But I am not perfect. so if God did not take the words written against me and contrary to me (the law and the curse of the law) I would die in my sin.

The law will never make you righteous.

DOES that mean we sin more? May it not be so. We sin less. Because as paul said, the law came and sin increased, it did not decrease..

that is the same today as it was in moses day.

 

[Ariel82]

Why do you quote these are two different men with the name Annias....

Some days I have no clue what you are trying to say g777


Acts 5:1 (KJV)
1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
Acts 9:10 (KJV)
10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.

 

[FranC]

So you are unable to show me.

Read Mathew 13:20-21

 

[Ariel82]

[SUP]7 [/SUP]“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’


- was Saul an example of an overcomer?

Which happens now whenever we over come sin and tear down our spiritual strongholds..we eat of the tree of life,

 

[Grace777x70]

You are saying that Ananias and Sapphira were not Christians? Now that is really stretching the scriptures to breaking point. So are we to believe that they were just some random people (unbelievers) in Jerusalem that offended the Holy Spirit? Really??

The first step is to be honest with yourself.

Why were they to have sold their possessions and given to the Apostles if they WERE NOT in the church already?

Unbelievers lie and steal from each other daily. Why was this story relevant to the new church in Acts if they were unbelievers?

Simple...they were trying to get the benefit of having all things in common with the believers and to reap the benefit from them. The very same thing happens constantly in our churches today. Jesus said there would be tares in with the wheat. There are those that come to our "love feasts" as Jude puts it.

I don't know why people find it strange that unbelievers are in the church when Jesus said there would be. They want things from us and they will do things to give us the "illusion" that they are with us. Like withhold money.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

All premised on continual belief. An apostate no longer has belief, and falls away. Myriad of scriptures supporting this. Therefore he comes under condemnation. His covenant with the Lord is broken through his unbelief.

an apostate is one who denys christ, and has become against christ or an antichrist.

John said they were never saved to begin with, the left to prove they were never saved, for if they were saved they would never have left.

Nice try,, Keep trying if you must, Or just listen to the word?

 

[blue_ladybug]

IMO, there is no such thing as "hyper" grace. Grace is grace, period. The bible does NOT speak of hyper grace.. It says "by grace you are saved". It does NOT say "by HYPER grace you are saved"..

 

[FranC]

Good works are NOT a necessity to KEEP salvation. We are to do them, yes. But we're commanded to do them to show God's love to others, NOT for the benefit of keeping our salvation.

If works are not nfecessary to keep salvation, why do we do them?
Because we love God? OK.
But what if I don't feel like doing them?
Am I still a member of the Kingdom if I don't follow Kingdom rules?

If I join a golf club and then mess up the grounds...can I still be a member?
Does God NOT HAVE RULES??

Can we each just go around doing whatever we want to do?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This faith is in Jesus Christ the Lord. Romans 10v9

However people forget that within Romans 10v9 is the word "Lord". They are happy to have a saviour, but want none of His Lordship. And if we are to be honest, his Lordship is requires a response. Repentance and Obedience.

Jesus is my Lord. But he must first be my savior. If I do not make him my savior. he will never be my lord.

What is wrong is people want him to be lord, and not a savior. they want to save themselves by doing whatever it is they think they must do to be saved. And thus reject his salvation, His grace and his work.. Making a mockery of him,

You wan tpeople to live in fear. My lord says he is not a spirit of fear. but an Abba father.

My father is my Lord.. But I do not have to fear him.

 

[Grace777x70]

Why do you quote these are two different men with the name Annias....

Some days I have no clue what you are trying to say g777


Acts 5:1 (KJV)
1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
Acts 9:10 (KJV)
10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.

The difference is - the words "man" and "disciple" in the above scriptures ...both are also using the term "certain". When using the word "man" - it is talking throughout the books of Acts as unbelievers ( of which some do become believers eventually)

When "certain" is used with "disciple" - it is talking about believers in the book of Acts.

 

[FranC]

Galatians is clear....those who blend works with faith to finish the deal concerning salvation are deceived and called fools....

Jesus finished the work on the cross on our behalf....when we acknowledge him by faith we are saved, sealed, justified and sanctified in Christ positionally for ever.....any work or fruit is the result of the salvation and faith we already possess eternally in Christ.....we cannot ADD to the perfect work of Jesus...God is clear...when I see the blood I will pass over you....end of story!

Those who interject self state plainly that what Jesus has done is not sufficient....no way around that!

You say we are saved, sealed, justified and sancitified in Christ positionally forever...

So, you don't believe sanctification is an ongoing process?
You say we're POSITIONALLY sanctified --- so we could DO NOTHING forever?

Please provide scripture verses... for example Galatians.

 

[FranC]

It is an acceptable example if you remember that he defended Jesus, saying that He had done nothing wrong to deserve being crucified..

Blue,
The good thief on the cross is NOT a good example of someone who is saved but does not do good works.
He COULDN'T do good works, so how would that be a good example???

 

[Ariel82]

If works are not nfecessary to keep salvation, why do we do them?
Because we love God? OK.
But what if I don't feel like doing them?
Am I still a member of the Kingdom if I don't follow Kingdom rules?

If I join a golf club and then mess up the grounds...can I still be a member?
Does God NOT HAVE RULES??

Can we each just go around doing whatever we want to do?

1. Its not a golf club membership it's adoption into God's family.
.2. Would you return a child you adopted or would you teach them your rules?

3. Why do people believe God less powerful or loving than human parents?

 

[blue_ladybug]

I've explained this many, many times before. We do them because God asks us to do them. We do NOT do them in order to remain saved. So you don't feel like mowing your disabled neighbor's yard today (example)? That's ok, if you don't do it, that does NOT mean that you won't remain saved. YES, we are still members of God's kingdom even if we don't do works everyday. BUT that does not give us a free pass to do whatever we want, and say, "it's okay, I'm saved so I'll sin today"..

And no, God does not have rules. He has requirements. Just as a golf club has requirements that you not destroy their property. You might get yelled at, but you probably won't have your golfing privileges revoked either. Likewise, God isn't going to take away your salvation, if you don't do good works every day. There is only ONE way to lose salvation and that is to deny that Jesus ever existed.

If works are not nfecessary to keep salvation, why do we do them?
Because we love God? OK.
But what if I don't feel like doing them?
Am I still a member of the Kingdom if I don't follow Kingdom rules?

If I join a golf club and then mess up the grounds...can I still be a member?
Does God NOT HAVE RULES??

Can we each just go around doing whatever we want to do?

 

[blue_ladybug]

Defending someone isn't a good work?? It is to me, especially when he was defending Jesus. I'm truly amazed that you don't realize this.. The thief did a couple good works actually. He defended an innocent person AND exercised the work that God gave him: faith.

Blue,
The good thief on the cross is NOT a good example of someone who is saved but does not do good works.
He COULDN'T do good works, so how would that be a good example???

 

[FranC]

And yet Jesus Himself said " The Holy Spirit will be in you forever" John 14:16

Is Jesus now a liar? Did Jesus actually accomplish anything with His work on the cross and resurrection. Does the blood of Jesus have any worth?

If we keep mixing up the Covenants - we will end up in a complete mess and it creates a works-based belief system that denies Christ and His work on the cross and resurrection.

Saul is not indicative of a New Covenant believer that is sealed in Christ for all eternity because of what Christ has done.

Lord send us more missionaries to help the unbelieving Christians to see You and all that You have done on the cross and in the resurrection.

Grace,
You keep repeating that Jesus said the Holy Spirit would be with believers forever and you ask if Jesus is a liar.

Let me ask you this:

If I'm a believer and one day I murder someone, is the Holy Spirit with me?