Not By Works

PeterJens · May 14, 2017

So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
Eph 4:11-13

The whole point of the cross is we are to be Gods friends. servants of love
and need, those who love and desire to do thing rightly.

And Jesus's promise is that we will be one with Him, as much as we are one
with each other, and one with the Father.

Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.
John 17:11

I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
John 17:22-23

I suspect, limey, these verses do not mean to me what they do to you.
Jesus is saying we are one with Him, and Paul is saying the same thing,
to conform to Christs example.

What I hear from you suggestion of Gen 3:5 is this is satans deception.

I wonder which bible you are reading to draw this conclusion about Jesus
and the cross. Your ambition is to be like who? A lost sinner rather than
Christ.

Here is Paul saying whose example we should follow

Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.
1 Cor 11:1

Now please tell me you do see what Paul is encouraging us to do?
Whose example are you following?

followjesus · May 14, 2017

FranC said:

daily repentance , commiting and surrender daily, seeking after Him daily, wanting to Know Him more daily as God brings to light more and more as we grow He gives us Knowledge of things we didnt even Know we were doing Wrong, we should never be copmplacent unless we have the idea were all ready perfect. salvation isnt for us to judge even our own, its all about the Doctrine of the Judge, the One we have to face. and as you have shown many times Jesus teaches GHis gospel and the repeatedly expressly says " do these things...if you do not do them.....and gives the result of both choices. this doesnt mean if we do not do one thing one day now were lost it simplu means we need to stop doing that thing that we Know is sin, in order to be set free from its control

theres a result of sinning it gives strength to sin in us, theres a result to doing right, it Gives freedom from sin in us in whatever area.

what we look at take in is so important to the choice we make later, a simple example is like some of the music videos out there. watch enough and the viewer starts talking that way and thinking that way. there is spirit attatched to everything we look at and Hear and do and think about . its why the Word of God is so important. when we spend time studying it, we meditate on it it gets into out thinking and then we begin doing those things from that spirit in our minds. its Why Jesus said His words are spirirt and Life, why He said keep my words, why He said obey my words and the spirit of truth will be sent to you, your counselor and comforter, its why Jesus says " that spirit will always remind you of everything i have said" its why the word says were born again through the word of God, the words of satan destroy us, the words of God give us sight and Life.

Grace777x70 · May 14, 2017

I believe that the "good works" are the good works that God has prepared for us to walk in - which are what Christ has done in His dying on the cross and in His resurrection and now we live by His life inside of us as we get our minds renewed to the finished work of Christ.

We have died with Christ on the cross and now we too have risen to newness of life in His resurrection.

These "good works" are not something we do independently of Christ. They are a result of His good works that have already been accomplished and is now being manifested outwardly in us the branches. He is the true Vine. He bears His fruit on us the branches.

Get that backwards and we create a religion of works that tries to mimic the life of God by what we do or don't do. That is called works-righteousness and it is anti-Christ in it's belief system.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

( notice I did NOT say that we do not do good works )

followjesus · May 14, 2017

FranC said:

James 1 and 2 sister.

also matthew 7:21-27 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." <<< this does say that our actions save us " the One who DOES the will of God.....

Grace777x70 · May 14, 2017

Notice that in Matt 7:19-33..Jesus said:

"I never knew you "...these people were not believers...

( Jesus never said " I used to know you once.". He said I NEVER knew you at all...).

Everyone when they see Jesus will call Him Lord.....because He is Lord and will be for eternity.

Jesus said that He "knows" His sheep so those in Matt. 7:19-33 are not true Christians.

John 10:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14[/SUP]I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Jesus did the "will of God"...and delivered us from this present evil world

Galatians 1:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4[/SUP] Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

It is God in us that gives us the will and the ability to do His will.

Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13[/SUP] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

The Will of the Father is to believe on Jesus.

1 John 3:23-24 (NASB)

[SUP]23[/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

[SUP]24[/SUP] The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

The good works we do are from "being in Christ"..being led by the Holy Spirit. Notice God has prepared them for us. We walk them out as we live our lives dependent on Him. It is His fruit that bears in and through us.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8[/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

[SUP]9[/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

[SUP]10[/SUP] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

PeterJens · May 14, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

Listen to the above rational.

Doing good works is anti-christ belief system.

No one can distinguish between good works done by people are in Christ or not.
So by calling them possibly evil, are you encouraging people to serve and love or
do nothing? And why has following love become the way of judging good things
as if they could be evil?

God only condemns evil deeds that are obviously sinful.
I am still amazed at the antagonism this teaching creates. Out of a possible problem
of motivation, it becomes the biggest evil on the planet.

Just listen to God when He had hypocrites who did evil praising Him for selfish reasons

Your New Moon feasts and your appointed festivals I hate with all my being.
They have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them.
15 When you spread out your hands in prayer, I hide my eyes from you;
even when you offer many prayers, I am not listening.
Your hands are full of blood! Wash and make yourselves clean.
Take your evil deeds out of my sight; stop doing wrong.
Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed.
Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.
Isaiah 1:14-17

God rebukes the people for empty worship because of their evil deeds.
He tells them simply to do good things, to be righteous.

It is not evil to be religious, it is right if you are righteous, so get righteous.

This is Gods message and His way.

followjesus · May 14, 2017

blue_ladybug said:

Matthew 7:24-27 "Therefore <<<<<<<<( from v 21) whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, AND DOETH THEM, I will liken him unto a WISE MAN, which built his house UPON A ROCK: 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it FELL NOT: for it was founded upon a rock.

26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and DOETH THEM NOT, shall be likened unto a FOOLISH MAN, which built his house upon the SAND: 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."

when "threfore" begins a sentance its a connection to what is said beforehand whoch v 21 is Jesus saying this

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

The will of God is to actually do what Jesus taught. the gospel. Our actions will determine whether we Live or die. Belief is necassary because if we do not Believe in Jesus, His words wont matter to us enough to do them. again

James 1:21-25 says " be doers of the word NOT hearers only its a decption to just hear, but the one who hears and continues in those things, doing them will be blessed in His deeds.

James also says " Faith WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD." faith saves if its Living faith, Living faith REQUIRES actions. Just Like abraham who god told Get up and leave and ill tell you where to go, abram Got up packed his things and set out, not even yet Knowing where to go, later he is declared righteous through His belief. what evidence is there of His belief?? He actually did what God said to do. thats faith like Noah. God gave Hium Grace, warned Him of the coming disaster and then told Him what to do and noah did it and because He did it, he and His house were saved......faith is when belief moves to action, that Kind of belief is given when a person accepts Gods warnings and also His instructions.

Grace777x70 · May 14, 2017

In relation to doing "good works" or trying to do things in our own flesh. There is a difference and only God who knows the heart can determine that.

In the natural the fruit of our own self-will and the fruit of our righteousness in Christ and His life in us effecting the change look alike outwardly.

( the same as Abraham's self-effort in his flesh produced a son outwardly ) When Abraham gave up and just believed that God would fulfill His promise - then God gave him and Sarah the ability to have a son.

So, they just went about living naturally...had sex and God's promise came into being...a natural outflow of them just living....the son of promise came then. God's fruit in them being produced.

All Christians agree what the "fruit" of the life of God looks like. But does it come by us producing the fruit or by relying on the root which for us Christians is Christ's life in us. ( the whole He is the vine - His life is the sap that flows out of us because we are the branches thing )

Sometimes we see what the fruit should look like and we say to people - "produce" this fruit..or else.

Self-control is a fruit of the Spirit which is not something we produce in our own flesh or will-power just by choosing to stop something. It can last for a bit but eventually we all give in because our flesh is weak.

I think choosing by an act of our will is involved in both circumstances. Choosing to change by our will power and living from the life of Christ both involve the will.

For it is God who is at work in us bother to give us the desire and the capability to do His good pleasure. Phil. 2:13

followjesus · May 14, 2017

PeterJens said:

the pattern of that gog teachoing bro is the pattern of teaching that caused the sin problem in man. God told them something, satan explained and confused it away, teisted it, used part truth and murdered those in the image of God. I absolutely abhor that doctrine and its terribly sad to see it flooding the world. i truly feel that the word is the most important thing God ever Gave, to know what God said guards against deceitful poison, my thinking is if God said something....Theres no doubt if Jesus taught something its Gods Word thats the very core of everything i believe and will not ever part on inch from.......i need to just get away from this cup of mud called the gog doctrine, i pray that those who arent convicted yet of the gog, will part quickly form its teaching and those who spread it through the world, its just the serpents voice extended in more confusing details, still to this day turning minds against " good works" Which God has always been saying " do these things they are Life" and " dont do these things they are death"

Grace777x70 · May 14, 2017

What a pile of garbage that Christians who love the Lord with their whole heart and who trust in the life of Christ to bear the fruit of His life in them to do good works are turning minds against doing "good works". That is exactly the slander that displays the "spirit" behind such malice.

It's so deceitful and ungodly behavior.

FranC · May 14, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

You said...
"so that WE would walk in them".

WE have to walk in what God has for us. He helps us.

How have they already been accomplished?
God prepares us to work within the Kingdom. To do what Jesus would want us to do.
The Holy Spirit helps us to promote His Kingdom. A work is only something we do that is done how God would want us to do it.
it's not some magical thing that we have to do --- or even some specific work. Unless it's a calling, which is different.

Why are you so afraid of righteousness? There's no such thing for a believer.
We are not righeous unto ourselves. Righeusness is imputed to us through Jesus works.
We can say that we are righteous in the sense that we are RIGHT WITH GOD.
But most people see righeousness in a negative sense, self-righteousness. That is not right.
I might have misunderstood you regarding righteousness...

Grace777x70 · May 14, 2017

FranC said:

You tell me how that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world and then I'll know the answer to the works God had prepared before hand that we are to walk out.

I am not afraid of righteousness at all. I have posted many, many times on the righteousness of God in Christ and how that there are deeds of righteousness. What I am against is self-righteousness and in thinking that doing good deeds makes one righteous. Only Christ makes us righteous because of His finished work on the cross.

Grace777x70 · May 14, 2017

Maybe this quote might shed some more light on the subject of good works.

Quote:

You may have harnessed the energy of the flesh in an otherwise quite genuine desire to honor the Lord Jesus in your life. The flesh, which has its origin in Satan, will go along with you; to survive, it is quite prepared to engage in every form of Christian activity, even though this may seem to honor Christ.

The flesh will sing in the choir, teach Sunday school, preside at a deacons’ meeting, preach from the pulpit, organize an evangelistic crusade, go to Bible college, volunteer for the mission field, and a thousand other things, all of which may in themselves be otherwise legitimate, if only it can keep its neck out of the noose.

The flesh will threaten, shout, strut, domineer, sulk, plot, creep, beg, plead, or sob, whatever the situation may demand in the interests of its own survival. By any and all means it will seek to cause every Christian to live by his own strength instead of by the power and grace of the Lord Jesus, and to conclude that doing so is actually a good thing!

The characteristic of the spiritually immature is that they are unable to discern between good and evil (Hebrews 5:13-14), and the baby Christian, like the foolish Galatians, “having begun in the Spirit” still tries to be “made perfect by the flesh” (Galatians 3:3).

We must be particularly patient with those whose lack of understanding allows a genuine love for the Lord Jesus to be satisfied with, and sometimes to be quite enthusiastic about, Christian activities involving means and methods which are heavily contaminated by the flesh. These are more deserving of instruction than rebuke, for they are still in their spiritual babyhood.

.....The flesh will seek to produce the most plausible arguments in justification of its own illegitimate activities, even though these activities are only what the Bible calls “dead works” (Hebrews 6:1; 9:14) and not the “good works” which are truly the work of God.

“Good works” are those that have their origin in Jesus Christ, as Christ’s activity is released through your body because you present it to Him as a living sacrifice. You do this only by faith that expresses total dependence, as opposed to Adamic independence."

Major Ian Thomas: The Way Of The Flesh; from The Indwelling Life of Christ

followjesus · May 14, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

Bruce only someone in the flesh would make what we do a work of the flesh. a person who is born of the spirit, rejoices in doing the Works God has taught us to do. willy bob gave a great insight to me the other day.

A person walking in the flesh, cant acceopt or address the teachings of Chirst because everything you are taught to do, is instruction of the spirit and received By spirit. the flesh and spirit are opposed the works of the flesh are these examples of wrong thoughts and actions according to paul

Galatians 5 : 16-21 "So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[SUP]c[/SUP] you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.19The ACTS OF the flesh are OBVIOUS: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I WARN YOU, as I did before, that those who LIVE LIKE THIS will NOT INHERIT the kingdom of God."

only the flesh would make works "trying to obey God" someone with the spirit simply accepts yes i need to obey God, someone in the fleah squirms in circles trying to change whats there the flesh hates righteousness, the spirit Loves and pursues it always.

Grace777x70 · May 14, 2017

I have posted this before but I love the opportunity to preach Christ again.

Doing righteous deeds by themselves does not make one righteous. This is having the cart before the horse.

I know there have been "good" people doing "righteous deeds " but they were not belonging to God. Many religions have moral living people in them - all doing "righteous deeds".

Here is how righteousness is manifested in a believer....we need to be righteousness conscious...not sin-conscious...we have a new creation in Christ now!

This "righteousness " will manifest outwardly in doing righteous deeds - but we need the "horse" in front first.

The "horse" being Christ's righteousness in us because of our being in Christ in our inner man..our new creation in Christ.

Awake to who you are in Christ!..Awake to righteousness and sin not..when you see who you are in Him in your new man...you will then manifest outwardly who you already are now in Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face,beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

Hebrews 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13[/SUP] For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 54:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] "In righteousness you will be established; You will be far from oppression, for you will not fear; And from terror, for it will not come near you.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21[/SUP] He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

When you see who you are in Christ because of His finished work - you become outwardly in behavior ( which includes doing good works ) what you are truly like in your new inner man where Christ dwells and His life gets manifested in love towards others in this hurt and dying world.

stonesoffire · May 14, 2017

Luk 17:7　 "Suppose a man among you has a servant plowing or watching sheep. Would he say to him when he comes in from the field, 'Come at once and have something to eat'?　

Luk 17:8　 Of course not. Instead, he would say to him, 'Get dinner ready for me, and put on your apron and wait on me until I eat and drink. Then you can eat and drink.'
　
Luk 17:9　 He doesn't praise the servant for doing what was commanded, does he?　

Luk 17:10　 That's the way it is with you. When you have done everything you were ordered to do, say, 'We are worthless servants. We have done only what we ought to have done.'"

What's the point of this?

　

Grace777x70 · May 14, 2017

Anyway..I am off to do some studying. Everyone have a great rest of the night and keep looking unto the Lord Jesus Christ for He alone is our true life. Without Him we can do nothing. Bless you all...

stonesoffire · May 14, 2017

I need to get off here too so will post my answer. Law or what man "must" do creates a worthless servant.

Grace? A Son. Born from above...another nature and what we do...is out of that nature. Not that we must...but we desire.

limey410 · May 14, 2017

PeterJens said:

Most of the verses you have brought up are speaking of being one with Christ.

I am one with Christ through the finished work of the cross. Not because I am like Christ, but because He is in me and I in Him.

You will become mature when you obtain the full measure of Christ.

When you fully understand what the cross meant and what Jesus did for you.

Honestly Peter from some of what you say, I think you only partially trust what He did. You think the rest is up to you and what you can do to help it along. But it isn't.

Your concerns about what scriptures I read are interesting.

The Genesis 3:5 I referenced is Satan's lie to Adam, that stated if he didn't believe God, that he could be like God, Adam then decided this was a good idea and decided not to believe God. You know the rest. (I'm paraphrasing)

It seems to me you believe the same lie, because you want to be like God, and you don't fully trust the finished work of the cross.

My ambition (if that's what you want to call it) is to be me, who God created, with Him living in me (which He now does), He created me for that purpose, so that I could have a relationship with Him, and reflect that into the world, so others might want it too.

I want to be me, the true me, learning how to know my God. I wasn't created to be like Jesus. That's insane!! Why you trying to be something you will NEVER be!!!

As far as your last big highlight.

Paul is asking them to imitate him, as he imitates Christ.

What does that mean? He is not asking you to imitate Christ, he is asking you to imitate him (Paul).

Maybe you need to dig a little deeper to understand what Paul is saying, because that verse just stands by itself at the beginning of the chapter, or you could go back to 1 Corinthians 10: 23-33, you'll get an answer there I think.

PeterJens · May 14, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

Anything which says a good deed could be evil is just wrong.

People are evil, deeds are either good deeds or evil deeds.
Evil deeds or sin, dooms people to destruction.

A good deed cannot become evil because of the person doing it.

The truth is simple, good deeds do not make you good, and good deeds
done by sinners do not make them evil deeds.

But anyone who suggests doing good is evil, has just stopped talking the
word of the Lord.

Turn from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it.
Psalm 34:14

Turn from evil and do good; then you will dwell in the land forever.
Psalm 37:27

Now those who preach against this say oh it is the evil of doing that is the
thing. We should not do, we should just rest, and become.

Then Jesus said to them, “I ask you, which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it?”
Luke 6:9

Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like.
James 1:22-24

So much error and simple deception. How can one make doing good into something
evil. It must be appealing to the sinful side of peoples nature to hate the righteous and
hate conviction of sin, and just rail against those who walk in Gods ways.

Not By Works

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