Did Christ do enough to save us?
- Thread starter PeterJens
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
If we are going to talk about grace now. Here is how I view grace just so that there is no mis-representation.
There are 2 aspects to grace. The very first thing that Jesus does with the woman caught in adultery is that He gets rid of her accusers - the religious Pharisees that wanted to condemn her because the "bible" said so in the Old Covenant...she was to be stoned. ( the law condemns us )
Jesus was the only one qualified to condemn her but He didn't.
1) acceptance grace - which has nothing to do with our behavior - as seen with the woman caught in adultery. Our Lord beautifully says " I do not condemn you".
It is in knowing you are not condemned that releases the other aspect of grace.
2) now, go and sin no more - this is empowering grace.
Empowering grace enables you to be who the Father sees you are in Christ now because you are a new creation in Him.
The religious mindset says to the woman caught in adultery - 'Do not sin and we will not condemn you."
The grace of God and the blood of Jesus speaks of better things in this New Covenant of grace!
"Knowing" that we are not condemned in Christ "releases" the life of the empowering grace to transform us. It's all about Christ! It's His fruit being manifested in us!
Acceptance grace which is not based on our behavior needs to be cemented in our hearts before empowering grace is able to be manifested.
Does this make us want to go out and sin all we want? No! A thousand times No! It does the complete opposite - it attracts us to our Lord for we need His life and love and grace for living. His love and grace draws us to complete reliance on Him for all things.
What believers in a self-effort/self-performance D.I.Y. holiness/righteousness based mindset and the self-appointed "fruit inspectors" have a very hard time with is the "acceptance grace" part...this just drives them nuts...and I understand why..it is scandalous and it "conflicts" with their religious man-made traditions.
There are 2 aspects to grace. The very first thing that Jesus does with the woman caught in adultery is that He gets rid of her accusers - the religious Pharisees that wanted to condemn her because the "bible" said so in the Old Covenant...she was to be stoned. ( the law condemns us )
Jesus was the only one qualified to condemn her but He didn't.
1) acceptance grace - which has nothing to do with our behavior - as seen with the woman caught in adultery. Our Lord beautifully says " I do not condemn you".
It is in knowing you are not condemned that releases the other aspect of grace.
2) now, go and sin no more - this is empowering grace.
Empowering grace enables you to be who the Father sees you are in Christ now because you are a new creation in Him.
The religious mindset says to the woman caught in adultery - 'Do not sin and we will not condemn you."
The grace of God and the blood of Jesus speaks of better things in this New Covenant of grace!
"Knowing" that we are not condemned in Christ "releases" the life of the empowering grace to transform us. It's all about Christ! It's His fruit being manifested in us!
Acceptance grace which is not based on our behavior needs to be cemented in our hearts before empowering grace is able to be manifested.
Does this make us want to go out and sin all we want? No! A thousand times No! It does the complete opposite - it attracts us to our Lord for we need His life and love and grace for living. His love and grace draws us to complete reliance on Him for all things.
What believers in a self-effort/self-performance D.I.Y. holiness/righteousness based mindset and the self-appointed "fruit inspectors" have a very hard time with is the "acceptance grace" part...this just drives them nuts...and I understand why..it is scandalous and it "conflicts" with their religious man-made traditions.
Last edited:
Oh, bless you sister!
And HE brings even the repentance and change by giving us more light and this causes us to lean on Him even more.
The blind man was given sight but it was still blurry so when asked what he saw he said, well...at first I thought they were trees, but then trees don't move in this exact way so...I think I'm seeing men walking around. Then Jesus did something else to his eyes and his vision became more clear.
If the man had gone off rejoicing that he could see, and had not remained with Jesus, his sight would have remained blurry. But he stayed and was given more light.
Jesus didn't goof up on this miracle. God doesn't need two tries to get a miracle right. The story is for us.
And HE brings even the repentance and change by giving us more light and this causes us to lean on Him even more.
The blind man was given sight but it was still blurry so when asked what he saw he said, well...at first I thought they were trees, but then trees don't move in this exact way so...I think I'm seeing men walking around. Then Jesus did something else to his eyes and his vision became more clear.
If the man had gone off rejoicing that he could see, and had not remained with Jesus, his sight would have remained blurry. But he stayed and was given more light.
Jesus didn't goof up on this miracle. God doesn't need two tries to get a miracle right. The story is for us.
I was not saying you are a new convert. As for struggling to know Him better and better, I hope this is happening with all of us. We hope that there will always be constant improvement in us and that we are growing our roots further down into Christ.
Jesus tells one of the churches, I see your constant improvement in these things. If there is not continuing improvement, there is a problem. If we are not being more and more renewed in our mind for all of our time here in our walk, there is a problem. I feel that you bristled at something I said and thought I was treating you like a new convert but I was trying to help you with what I have learned. I have done this with you since the first conversation I remember us having where you insisted anger in our heart is not murder. I listen to you and carefully re-read your posts and spend time to understand what you are saying and where you are because if I can share something that might help you and build you up, I will never fail to share it. I have seen your constant growth in faith, hope and love and what you share also helps build me up.
I will not say more because I do not want to cause you to bristle and if I ever do, I have probably tried to share something that you aren't ready for, or there is someone different who He wants to share it.
I hope this is a day for of blessing for you from Fathers hand that is so great you cannot contain it all!
We hope that there will always be constant improvement in us and that we are growing our roots further down into Christ. Jesus tells one of the churches, I see your constant improvement in these things. If there is not continuing improvement, there is a problem. If we are not being more and more renewed in our mind for all of our time here in our walk, there is a problem. I feel that you bristled at something I said and thought I was treating you like a new convert but I was trying to help you with what I have learned. I have done this with you since the first conversation I remember us having where you insisted anger in our heart is not murder. I listen to you and carefully re-read your posts and spend time to understand what you are saying and where you are because if I can share something that might help you and build you up, I will never fail to share it. I have seen your constant growth in faith, hope and love and what you share also helps build me up.
I will not say more because I do not want to cause you to bristle and if I ever do, I have probably tried to share something that you aren't ready for, or there is someone different who He wants to share it.
I hope this is a day for of blessing for you from Fathers hand that is so great you cannot contain it all!
The above sentence ignores Jesus advice,
"Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more."
John 8:11
Jesus expectation was for this woman to no longer commit adultery.
It sounds like some people believe she was just forgiven and she can now
go off and do what she likes. But that is simply not what Jesus said.
So I have no understanding of G7 assertion or aspiration.
"Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more."
John 8:11
Jesus expectation was for this woman to no longer commit adultery.
It sounds like some people believe she was just forgiven and she can now
go off and do what she likes. But that is simply not what Jesus said.
So I have no understanding of G7 assertion or aspiration.
The debtor can no longer accumulate a debt. The 'billionaire' not only paid the bill but became financially responsible for all future bills.
Our part is to trust in the finished work of Christ and not try to earn anything by our own work.
John 1:7-8
[FONT="]7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
How were we saved? We trusted Christ to save us.
How do we stay saved? We trust Christ continues to Hold us in His Hand.
The Lord Jesus Christ doesn't just give us a boost and tell us to lift the rest of the weight. The Lord has done it all. Its not our blood that cleanses anything. Its not our word that cleanses anyone. Its not our love that draws us to Christ. Its not our spirit that produces fruit.
'Our Part' is to continually trust the Love that is extended to us. We're not trusting that we are the workmanship of God if we are trying to do the work for Him.
[/FONT]
Our part is to trust in the finished work of Christ and not try to earn anything by our own work.
John 1:7-8
[FONT="]7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
How were we saved? We trusted Christ to save us.
How do we stay saved? We trust Christ continues to Hold us in His Hand.
The Lord Jesus Christ doesn't just give us a boost and tell us to lift the rest of the weight. The Lord has done it all. Its not our blood that cleanses anything. Its not our word that cleanses anyone. Its not our love that draws us to Christ. Its not our spirit that produces fruit.
'Our Part' is to continually trust the Love that is extended to us. We're not trusting that we are the workmanship of God if we are trying to do the work for Him.
[/FONT]
Hi grandpa.
Are you sure the man can not amass any debt in the future?
In the parable, the mans debt was returned to him and demanded of him in the end because of something he did. He was told he would now be imprisoned until he paid the last farthing. He did something that caused the billionaire to account his debt back to him.
Are you sure the man can not amass any debt in the future?
In the parable, the mans debt was returned to him and demanded of him in the end because of something he did. He was told he would now be imprisoned until he paid the last farthing. He did something that caused the billionaire to account his debt back to him.
Hi grandpa.
Are you sure the man can not amass any debt in the future?
In the parable, the mans debt was returned to him and demanded of him in the end because of something he did. He was told he would now be imprisoned until he paid the last farthing. He did something that caused the billionaire to account his debt back to him.
Are you sure the man can not amass any debt in the future?
In the parable, the mans debt was returned to him and demanded of him in the end because of something he did. He was told he would now be imprisoned until he paid the last farthing. He did something that caused the billionaire to account his debt back to him.
If you want to bring it back to only being about forgiveness and not Salvation as well then yes, the man can incur debt by not forgiving as he was forgiven.
In the analogy, you surely don't believe the debtor is able to give someone else Salvation do you??
John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
No, I don't believe he is able to grant salvation to someone else.
I believe that he is able to do something that may affect his own forgiven debt.
I don't think the parable means to say that he will enter heaven but nevertheless he will enter it unforgiven of his debt...
Do unforgiven men enter heaven?
I believe that he is able to do something that may affect his own forgiven debt.
I don't think the parable means to say that he will enter heaven but nevertheless he will enter it unforgiven of his debt...
Do unforgiven men enter heaven?
People want salvation to be clear cut, though relationships are not clear cut.
Saul was appointed as the King of Israel yet failed.
Judas was called yet betrayed our Lord.
Many in Israel where brought out of Egypt to only die wandering in the desert.
Korah's rebellion was complete.
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left Heb 10:26
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance.
Heb 6:4-6
if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
James 5:19
We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized.
Heb 6:11
It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
2 Cor 11:15
Saul was appointed as the King of Israel yet failed.
Judas was called yet betrayed our Lord.
Many in Israel where brought out of Egypt to only die wandering in the desert.
Korah's rebellion was complete.
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left Heb 10:26
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance.
Heb 6:4-6
if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
James 5:19
We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized.
Heb 6:11
It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
2 Cor 11:15
The above sentence ignores Jesus advice,
"Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more."
John 8:11
Jesus expectation was for this woman to no longer commit adultery.
It sounds like some people believe she was just forgiven and she can now
go off and do what she likes. But that is simply not what Jesus said.
lol..that made me laugh.
It's in knowing that we are not condemned because we are in Christ that releases the empowering grace to function in our lives.
This dynamic can be a stumbling stone to our unrenewed minds concerning the finished work of Christ. It is all by grace through faith that we live.
The above sentence ignores Jesus advice,
"Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more."
John 8:11
Jesus expectation was for this woman to no longer commit adultery.
It sounds like some people believe she was just forgiven and she can now
go off and do what she likes. But that is simply not what Jesus said.
lol..that made me laugh.
It's in knowing that we are not condemned because we are in Christ that releases the empowering grace to function in our lives.
This dynamic can be a stumbling stone to our unrenewed minds concerning the finished work of Christ. It is all by grace through faith that we live.
This is a binary option, a yes or no. In your theology as Jesus had not died upon
the cross everything was still under the law, and Jesus's comment was only
applicable in this regard.
It is like saying in grace we still sin, and when we see Christ we will be like him
but nobody knows the progress we will make inbetween.
The more I read the new testament, they were extremely keen to emphasize our
purity and holiness and walking righteously, without sin.
Put simply you appear incapable of answering this simple issue.
Maybe your mind and emotions are so anti-legalist, you even reject the gospel
of love and grace in favour of lawlessness.
Empowering grace? Because Jesus did not condemn this woman she can now no longer
sin. Wow. Not seen this work in the testimony of anyone here, rather anyone who says
we should walk as Jesus walked get shot to pieces. So I do not believe a word you say,
because it fails at the simplest level, credibility.
sin. Wow. Not seen this work in the testimony of anyone here, rather anyone who says
we should walk as Jesus walked get shot to pieces. So I do not believe a word you say,
because it fails at the simplest level, credibility.
We will be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2 Timothy 2:1 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
We are to fix our hope completely on the grace that comes with the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ. The woman caught in adultery had such a revelation when Jesus did not condemn her.
1 Peter 1:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Only the true grace of God which is in Christ alone has the ability to build us up and give us the inheritance that is ours in the Lord.
Acts 20:32 (NASB)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] "And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.
We start our Christian life by grace through faith in Christ which comes by the revelation of Him and we end it that way.
We have a great salvation in our Lord - we can trust Him. He will never leave us nor forsake us. This is strong encouragement for us to trust Him for all things.
2 Timothy 2:1 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
We are to fix our hope completely on the grace that comes with the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ. The woman caught in adultery had such a revelation when Jesus did not condemn her.
1 Peter 1:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Only the true grace of God which is in Christ alone has the ability to build us up and give us the inheritance that is ours in the Lord.
Acts 20:32 (NASB)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] "And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.
We start our Christian life by grace through faith in Christ which comes by the revelation of Him and we end it that way.
We have a great salvation in our Lord - we can trust Him. He will never leave us nor forsake us. This is strong encouragement for us to trust Him for all things.
I have to say the biggest revelations I have had of Christ is because of my
desiring and seeking the Lord out, in prayer, praise, books and the word.
If I just sat and waited I would know nothing and have experienced nothing.
The fact that people are so inflexible and repeat the same phrases constantly
demonstrates how limited they are in their spiritual life.
desiring and seeking the Lord out, in prayer, praise, books and the word.
If I just sat and waited I would know nothing and have experienced nothing.
The fact that people are so inflexible and repeat the same phrases constantly
demonstrates how limited they are in their spiritual life.
I don't see how. But I'm not in the place of God to say for sure.
If we are talking about the parable and not the analogy then I think it refers to this as well;
Matthew 7:1-2
1[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Judge not, that ye be not judged.[/FONT]
[FONT="]2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.[/FONT]
If we are talking about the parable and not the analogy then I think it refers to this as well;
Matthew 7:1-2
1[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Judge not, that ye be not judged.[/FONT]
[FONT="]2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.[/FONT]
Yes, I think you have chosen a verse that is part of it!
I want to understand what the man did for his cancelled debt to be demanded from him again because Jesus was teaching me a spiritual truth and reality by the parable.
I am very secure in my Lord and trust Him to do all He said He would concerning me. This is why I listen very carefully to all His warnings and take them to heart. Those warnings are for my safety. If I don't heed them, then I'm not obeying Him. And if I claim to obey Him but then don't, I want to know, so I can pray for what I lack and what I need.
I want to understand what the man did for his cancelled debt to be demanded from him again because Jesus was teaching me a spiritual truth and reality by the parable.
I am very secure in my Lord and trust Him to do all He said He would concerning me. This is why I listen very carefully to all His warnings and take them to heart. Those warnings are for my safety. If I don't heed them, then I'm not obeying Him. And if I claim to obey Him but then don't, I want to know, so I can pray for what I lack and what I need.
Tell me, if an atheist who gets angry all the time and loses many girlfriends because of his anger problem, puts off anger. Was it Christ in them that put off the anger or the guy himself? What if a Muslim decides to stop raping, was it Christ in that person that stopped that person from raping? If an atheist, and a Muslim can put off their bad works through their own power and not from Jesus Christ. How are you saying you can't do the same?
Are you suggesting that EVERYONE would be rapists and murderers if it weren't for the Grace of God? That's like saying EVERYONE wants to force others to have sex and EVERYONE has hate and wants to kill someone? Seriously?
So what i hear you saying, is if you quit one sin, than another will just pop up and take its place. Is that what you are saying? i mean with that logic, why try to quit sinning if another will just take its place. What a wretched thought.
Did Jesus in me Make me quit looking at porn, or did i choose to stop looking at porn and prayed to help for His help in that matter?
Did Jesus make me quit smoking cigarettes, or was it the hardest thing i have ever done in my life? He did not do it for me, But i did it for Him.
Did Jesus make me quit having sex, been celibate over 10 years now, or did i choose to never again have a sexual relationship so that it would please Jesus Christ?
Did Jesus make me quit having the desire for money? Or did i choose to be poor to please Him?
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
This is simply not True. Atheist, who do not even believe in God have put off those things. Are you saying they have not? Indians who never knew Jesus Christ was able to put off those things as well. People all over the world not of the Christian Faith, have been able to put off those things without the help of Jesus Christ at all. Now you are saying we Christians can't either? Here is the problem. as long as this generation is waiting for Jesus to do the work in them, to MAKE them be better, more Godly, more Loving and what have you, they will NEVER attain it. Only those who draw close to God will He then draw close to them. If a person makes him/herself go out and Love One Another, this is drawing close to God, because when you do it for the least of them, you do it for God.. But if you are waiting for Jesus to change something in you that will cause you to go out and Love Other, you are going to wait forever, because it is not going to happen. We are Commanded to Love One Another, why? because it is not something that Jesus causes us to do automatically, it is something that we CHOOSE to obey. People wake up, you have been sleeping long enough.
I love you enough to tell you the truth... and I didn't even have to work to do it.
lol, talking to someone who does all things to please Him. i have not failed. It is my desire to please Jesus which lives inside of me that helps me to live a life that is pleasing to Him. Sure i have to look to Him for His Strength and Power, every singly time i am tempted to commit a sin. But to Love One Another is a choice that we all make, it is not something that Jesus causes in us. If that were the case, then every single person who Jesus lived in, would be Loving Others 100% of the times. because Jesus is NOT weak, He is all powerful and could do that, IF that is how it was done, which it is NOT. Jesus lives inside of you, you choose to obey Him or not. You choose to Love One Another, or NOT. He does not make you Love Other, just as satan does not MAKE you commit sins. You choose to Love Others, you choose to commit sins.
yeah i see a generation of those, All professing to be Christians, yet lacking Love One for Another is rampant. All waiting for God to change them, instead of them drawing close to God and start doing what He Commanded them to do. He, Jesus Christ, Commanded Christians to LOVE ONE ANOTHER, but as long as typical Christians from the last days continues to wait for God to do the work in them, they will do not work at all themselves.
Better start obeying Jesus Christ. Better start Loving One Another, don't care what the World says your doing "Oh he/she is just trying to get to Heaven by their works, poor soul" But guess what that poor soul is obeying Jesus Christ, which COMMANDED us to Love One Another. i guess the logic is then, if you are not Loving One Another, it must be the fault of Jesus because He is not working in you as He should. God forbid.
If you Love Jesus You will be doing what He says, and He says to Love One Another. This generation says they love Jesus are patiently waiting for Him to do a work in them. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when they are Judged to be goats saying "Lord my Savior, when did we not feed you, when did we not cloth you, when did we not help you, when did we not visit you?" And He will say to those Goats, when you did it NOT to the least of these, you did it not unto Me. So go ahead and wait for Jesus to do a work in you, when He is waiting for you to get off you tush, and start doing what He Commanded you to do, to Love One Another.
1Jn 3:23 And this is His commandment, That we should 1) Believe on the Name of His Son Jesus Christ, (FAITH) AND 2)Love One Another, (WORKS) as He gave us commandment. And he that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him. And hereby we know that He abideth in us, by the Spirit which He hath given us.
Those who Love One Another, will most certainly being DOING.
And yet, Scriptures are full of things teaching us what to Do? Should i believe you which say we don't need to DO anything, but REST, or Scriptures which teach us what we should DO? Scriptures Commands us to Love One Another, you say Christians are DONE, let us REST instead, is that correct?
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave
No, i have been pretty clear on my position, maybe it is your understanding of what you think is my position that is wavering.
Thank you for the advice, but i will continue to write what the Holy Spirit puts on my heart to write.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave