Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

[nowyouseem033]

I think there are two uses of free will being given here.
1. People can choose behaviour, what they do in a day.
2. We cannot choose God, He has to give us revelation through the word, for us to find the way.

The first free will makes man guilty of sin.
The second means we can be saved.

Does everyone who hears the word, get given a chance to respond?
I think yes, but how their heart is depends on what they do.

Eternity is predicated on love. If you have totally sold out on love,
nothing you do is going to mean you like the Lord or desire to walk that
way.

So to my mind this is the question people answer. Is there a hope, that
you are willing to pursue, or are you happy with where you are, even though
you know you will perish and all is temporary?

In the secular world it is all about unbelief and doubt and total cynism, so even
love is just an illusion. How dare my time be wasted, why should you ask me
to do anything unless I agree, so what if they are my parents, I deserve better,
feelings who needs them, only facts are true, relationships are for wimps, dog
eat dog is our way, greed is good.

This is all so lost, so hurt and alone, so without hope and torn apart, so without
belonging and knowing others at a deep loving level. But this is what consumer
wealth and greed create.

Nobody denies we have a will. But to use the term 'free' simply is not biblical whatsover but has been imposed upon the scriptures. If its true that we have a sinful nature and a heart thats wicked then whatever choice we make is a choice that comes from a sinful nature itself. Nobody denies we make choices but to claim you can discern the gospel and make a choice for Christ when you are blind to the gospel and dead in your sins is a contradiction. As the bible says man cannot please God nor can man understand the things of God so it requires first a work of the holy spirit to liberate your captive will that is towards sin towards the gospel. Otherwise plain and simple you will never come unless that happens first.

 

[StanJ]

Í

Oh i agree that he wants all people to be saved.

John 6:37 "all those the Father gives to me will come to me" In order for you to come to Christ you first must be given to him by God the Father.

Post 282 is the translation of 'world' in John 3:16. It does NOT mean every single individual ever lived or ever will live but rather gentiles, Jews, Greeks etc. General humanity. You do realize afterall that Jesus is talking to a Jew who probably had no concept of salvation outside the Jewish race itself right?

Do you understand that there was a strong heresy going on in the early church amongst Jewish Christians thinking that they were the only ones who have salvation and nobody else. Hence telling Gentiles to observe all the OT practices including circumcision, sabbath etc etc.

Which is what 2 Peter 3:9 teaches so I'm glad you agree with the Bible. the point is if Sovereign election was a reality then nowhere in the Bible does it say that God was willing that all people be saved and as far as the world is concerned it meant just that the existing world at the time that Jesus was born into it. course it doesn't mean that he just started loving the world at that time but that he had loved the world since he created it because he was the one who saw it and said it was good obviously because God does not create bad things.
John 6:37 says nothing about sovereign election. All it does is confirm that God must draw people to Jesus before they can be saved and that Jesus will always accept the Prayer of Salvation which is instigated in the heart of the person coming to him.
The fact is the Jesus never turns anybody away but many people turn him away. It's all predicated on free will and as such the Bible never contradicts itself when free will is taken as fact.

 

[samuel23]

I agree that one cannot be saved unless the Spirit of God is dealing with that person. However we first have to move in the direction of God in order for the Spirit of God to deal with us, God will not make us move toward Him, God already moved toward us when He gave Jesus to die on the cross, and that message is out there. I do believe that God does arrange situations where we are given a chance to move toward God, but we have to make that first move and then the Spirit of God will deal with us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Unmerited favor? I thought God looked down through the corridors of time, saw who would choose Him, then, because of that, He granted them grace. Not that I believe that scenario, but it sure isn't 'grace unmerited' if that is ones belief.

No, He granted them grace because he saw his son hanging on a cross. declaring it is finished.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes I agree with that bro.

I did want to put what I stated out there for those who have a false and unbiblical view of foreknowledge that is built on tradition and not upon Scripture.

foreknowledge

"to know, have knowledge," "before hand"

nothing confusing about it unless we do what the church has done with so many words, and made it into a word which means something that is far from its true meaning.

 

[PeterJens]

Nobody denies we have a will. But to use the term 'free' simply is not biblical whatsover but has been imposed upon the scriptures. If its true that we have a sinful nature and a heart thats wicked then whatever choice we make is a choice that comes from a sinful nature itself. Nobody denies we make choices but to claim you can discern the gospel and make a choice for Christ when you are blind to the gospel and dead in your sins is a contradiction. As the bible says man cannot please God nor can man understand the things of God so it requires first a work of the holy spirit to liberate your captive will that is towards sin towards the gospel. Otherwise plain and simple you will never come unless that happens first.

I think in truth it is a mystery. I think also it relies on conviction and a sense of love.
My impression is we are ignorant strangers afar off who Jesus calls.

The mystery is for some the language does not work or resonate while others it is
like they were made to follow. The discussion comes down to what is useful evangelism,
to catch those who are wanting, who God has stirred up.

I see this as useful to explore. Some declare condemnation preaching is not the way, or
what they really mean is talking about our failure and sins and how God resolves it.

Those who talk like this are often hiding they have no resolution, so want to avoid the
subject.

 

[garee]

Faith is a gift. To put your faith in someone or something you have to believe what they
are and that they are capable of delivering the thing you are having faith in.

God is capable, He performs that which He appoints to us.It is He who makes our hearts soft.

It would seem you are mixing up the "things of God" from "those of men", turning things upside down as to just whose faith does the work required for salvation. The unbelieving Jew (no faith ) had a habit of that.They required a sign according to a work they performed before they would believe having a faith in respect to their own works. . the cross in respect to Christ's finished work of faith was their stumbling block.

No such thing as a sign gift to prove a person has the Holy Spirit ,the Spirit of Christ.

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

Faith is a gift in respect to the work of Christ’s faith. Having His faith as a work in respect to persons to include oneself is shown as committing blaspheme.

To put your faith in someone or something you have to believe what theyare and that they are capable of delivering the thing you are having faith in.

You have to have knowledge of what and who you believe before a person can believe.It not something we can develop apart form Christ. If He has begun the good work of salvation He will finish it all the way to the end. There is nothing we could do to contribute to it. nothing

We cannot know the thoughts of another unless we first are given the information. We are not born with the faith of Christ by which we can believe God, seeing without His work of faith working in us to both will and do His good pleasure (imputed faith),no man could know Him

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 1Co 2:11

This faith needed to believe God is not of our own selves coming after the imagination of one fleshly mind.

Only God can reveal who Jesus was to the individual and that He can deliver it.
Also faith is a choice.

Faith is a work. He chose us not us Him.

Only God can reveal who Jesus was to the individual and that He can deliver it.You may understand something could be done, but the next question is for you as an individual will it be delivered. Out of this choice things and actions will flow.

Out of His choice of things will the action/ work flow, not of own selves.Again it is Christ who by His work of faith works in us to both will and do His good pleasure This is the wisdom of God is a mystery, even the hidden wisdom,

In the real world words need to be translated into loyalty. Standing up for Jesus.Working through love and righteousness and not giving in to sin and evil thoughthis may come at great cost.

It cost Christ to suffer the second death in our stead. No man will be found with a righteousness of themselves, a man must be born again .Being born again after the incorruptible seed of Christ. we are considered royal kings as Kingdom of priest.

The kingdom of God is not of this world never was never will be.

 

[nowyouseem033]

Í
Which is what 2 Peter 3:9 teaches so I'm glad you agree with the Bible. the point is if Sovereign election was a reality then nowhere in the Bible does it say that God was willing that all people be saved and as far as the world is concerned it meant just that the existing world at the time that Jesus was born into it. course it doesn't mean that he just started loving the world at that time but that he had loved the world since he created it because he was the one who saw it and said it was good obviously because God does not create bad things.
John 6:37 says nothing about sovereign election. All it does is confirm that God must draw people to Jesus before they can be saved and that Jesus will always accept the Prayer of Salvation which is instigated in the heart of the person coming to him.
The fact is the Jesus never turns anybody away but many people turn him away. It's all predicated on free will and as such the Bible never contradicts itself when free will is taken as fact.

Yeah the problem is the bible does NOT establish free-will whatsoever. We just see words like 'whoever' and 'come to me' and then automatically think we can actually do those things devoid of the Spirit drawing us and the Spirit regenerating our wicked hearts to choose him. Moreover the major emphasis is not ever the mans free-will but the Spirits willingness (John 3) to choose us despite our sinfulness. You first must be born of the Spirit. What is born of flesh is flesh. What is born of Spirit is Spirit. To be born again no where EVER does it say you must choose him to be born again. It says to come YES it says to whoever YES but it never says to choose him nor does it EVER establish free-will, but you assume it and therefore impose it upon the bible in doing so.

Again its amazing to think the bible teaches free-will just because it says whoever. Like i say time and time again. Free to sin YES free to will oneself to God and desire him NO.. that requires first a work of the Spirit to liberate the will FIRST!

Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. To the contrary where the Spirit of the Lord is not there is chaos, confusion and death. Which includes every human who does not have the Spirit.

 

[nowyouseem033]

Í
Which is what 2 Peter 3:9 teaches so I'm glad you agree with the Bible. the point is if Sovereign election was a reality then nowhere in the Bible does it say that God was willing that all people be saved and as far as the world is concerned it meant just that the existing world at the time that Jesus was born into it. course it doesn't mean that he just started loving the world at that time but that he had loved the world since he created it because he was the one who saw it and said it was good obviously because God does not create bad things.
John 6:37 says nothing about sovereign election. All it does is confirm that God must draw people to Jesus before they can be saved and that Jesus will always accept the Prayer of Salvation which is instigated in the heart of the person coming to him.
The fact is the Jesus never turns anybody away but many people turn him away. It's all predicated on free will and as such the Bible never contradicts itself when free will is taken as fact.

Why do i need the Spirit of God if i can 'freely choose him? Never mind those scriptures about how your in bondage to sin a slave of sin a lover of darkness and as ephesians says once were dead in sins. DEAD. To think that you are free when the bible says over and over again you are dead is a contradiction and i think there is overwhelming biblical data to support our depravity including our wills. How can dead people choose? How can blind people seek God? How can a nature who hates God suddenly Love God? How can you free yourself to choose Christ when the choice itself is coming from a heart that hates Christ? Questions like this a Calvinist is able to answer because they deposit a necessary and required work FIRST of the Spirit to open the eyes, mind and hearts of a dead and enslaved human who then freely chooses Christ. But that freedom to choose Christ comes second to a must first work of the Spirit in regeneration.

 

[NayborBear]

In order to even "fathom" a grip on "election", one MUST come to realize, or discern the different earth and heaven "AGES"!...Just as there shall be the "millennial age" when Satan is cast into the abyss for a thousand years, and this current earth and heaven age we are in NOW, there WAS a PREVIOUS earth and heaven age BEFORE Genesis was ever written by Moses! This PREVIOUS earth n heaven age, is from whence "I KNEW you before the foundations of (THIS) the earth (age). T'was a time that these faithful servants of God had STOOD WITH and FOUGHT BESIDE "HE, who REIGNS from Everlasting to Everlasting!"....There may well have been 2 previous earth and heaven ages before this current age we are living in at this present time. 1 age, may have been a "millennium" where the dinosaurs were king! And, yet another millennium, where ancient greek myhology, and the greek "gods" came from. In which this god named "zeus", or "king" of the gods came from. It IS my belief that this zeus feller, was none other then satan himself, and the "other" gods were those whom he "swept away" with his (tale) tail! The "age" where the "Overthrow" took place! The SAME age where some "mere mortals" DID STAND and war AGAINST this overthrow! Should you be interested in knowing the names of SOME of these lessor gods, and the effect/s they had on the "daughters of men" (bride/s of Christ), Might I direct y'all to reading the Book Of Enoch.

 

[nowyouseem033]

In order to even "fathom" a grip on "election", one MUST come to realize, or discern the different earth and heaven "AGES"!...Just as there shall be the "millennial age" when Satan is cast into the abyss for a thousand years, and this current earth and heaven age we are in NOW, there WAS a PREVIOUS earth and heaven age BEFORE Genesis was ever written by Moses! This PREVIOUS earth n heaven age, is from whence "I KNEW you before the foundations of (THIS) the earth (age). T'was a time that these faithful servants of God had STOOD WITH and FOUGHT BESIDE "HE, who REIGNS from Everlasting to Everlasting!"....There may well have been 2 previous earth and heaven ages before this current age we are living in at this present time. 1 age, may have been a "millennium" where the dinosaurs were king! And, yet another millennium, where ancient greek myhology, and the greek "gods" came from. In which this god named "zeus", or "king" of the gods came from. It IS my belief that this zeus feller, was none other then satan himself, and the "other" gods were those whom he "swept away" with his (tale) tail! The "age" where the "Overthrow" took place! The SAME age where some "mere mortals" DID STAND and war AGAINST this overthrow! Should you be interested in knowing the names of SOME of these lessor gods, and the effect/s they had on the "daughters of men" (bride/s of Christ), Might I direct y'all to reading the Book Of Enoch.

Ahhhh thats heresy.

 

[NayborBear]

Ahhhh thats heresy.

 

[sharkwhales]

Moving on from the previous thread of Total Depravity we end on the TULIP acronym, letter U.

U standing for Unconditional Election...

What scriptures and arguments are there to support Election being 1) Unconditional or 2) Conditional?

If one starts with the premise that we cannot (unable) to choose God UNLESS God first chooses to do a work in us so that we respond by faith to him, then it ties in with Total Depravity and would render election UNCONDITIONAL.
However if one starts with the premise that we can choose God through our free will then in turn denies Total depravity, one holds that the choice has been given to us by God and he is waiting for us to respond by faith to him that therefore would render election CONDITIONAL.

Which is a biblical and accurate picture of how election takes place?

This seems like a false dichotomy to me, created by mixing eternal perspective with temporal perspective.

In time, we see the choices we make, we are not always aware of all the choices God made leading up to it, so we may see our choices in a very disconnected way. Outside of time, God made the choices that gave us our choices, and foreknew who would make which choices. So these choices are not mutually exclusive; it's a chain reaction.

God chose to do a work in us by giving us free will, and by continuing to present choices to us.

We see it from the old testament 'this day I set before you life and death, blessing and cursing'... to the new testament 'How I would have gathered you like a hen gathers her chicks, but you were not willing'... and God continues to work to give us choices, and the grace to respond to him.

I guess it's ultimately asking, who makes the choice for us to be saved, us, or God? But the whole question obscures the truth of what a relationship is. It is a partnership that both people choose. It's similar to a family -- even if the parents started a child's life and do most of the work, the child still must be willing to live and relate to them. So a family is mostly conditional on the parents, but it is also conditional on the child. In a similar way, our choices are dependent on God's choices, even while they are distinct from God's choices.

 

[StanJ]

Yeah the problem is the bible does NOT establish free-will whatsoever. We just see words like 'whoever' and 'come to me' and then automatically think we can actually do those things devoid of the Spirit drawing us and the Spirit regenerating our wicked hearts to choose him. Moreover the major emphasis is not ever the mans free-will but the Spirits willingness (John 3) to choose us despite our sinfulness. You first must be born of the Spirit. What is born of flesh is flesh. What is born of Spirit is Spirit. To be born again no where EVER does it say you must choose him to be born again. It says to come YES it says to whoever YES but it never says to choose him nor does it EVER establish free-will, but you assume it and therefore impose it upon the bible in doing so.

Again its amazing to think the bible teaches free-will just because it says whoever. Like i say time and time again. Free to sin YES free to will oneself to God and desire him NO.. that requires first a work of the Spirit to liberate the will FIRST!

Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. To the contrary where the Spirit of the Lord is not there is chaos, confusion and death. Which includes every human who does not have the Spirit.

Of course you have to decide or choose to be born again otherwise Jesus wouldn't say 'You must'. That would be tantamount to talking to himself.
The Bible doesn't establish a lot of things by the exact words of common Orthodox belief. Can you show me where it establishes the truth about the trinity or the Omni attributes of God? The point is you have been inculcated into your beliefs and refuse to accept anything that the Bible will show you to the contrary.
Philemon 14
But without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.

So if you believe that God inspired the Bible and thus inspired Paul to write this then you must believe that he feels the same way about us not doing anything out of compulsion but by our free will. if you can't bring yourself to acknowledge this then you don't know the God of the Bible.

 

[nowyouseem033]

Of course you have to decide or choose to be born again otherwise Jesus wouldn't say 'You must'. That would be tantamount to talking to himself.
The Bible doesn't establish a lot of things by the exact words of common Orthodox belief. Can you show me where it establishes the truth about the trinity or the Omni attributes of God? The point is you have been inculcated into your beliefs and refuse to accept anything that the Bible will show you to the contrary.
Philemon 14
But without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.

So if you believe that God inspired the Bible and thus inspired Paul to write this then you must believe that he feels the same way about us not doing anything out of compulsion but by our free will. if you can't bring yourself to acknowledge this then you don't know the God of the Bible.

I dont deny free will Stan. I readily acknowledge though that a true 'free will' can only be found in Christ. Of course you can volunteer and choose.... the question is how can you choose Christ when the heart that makes the choice hates Christ? Answer these questions Stan and stop insinuating Im against the bible when the bible affirms our incapability and utter repulsiveness towards the gospel.

I agree that we make choices but those in the flesh cannot please God. So how do you please God when you are in the flesh? Thats why i keep saying you first must be born again. Whats the evidence that you have been born again? You choosing Christ

 

[nowyouseem033]

Of course you have to decide or choose to be born again otherwise Jesus wouldn't say 'You must'. That would be tantamount to talking to himself.
The Bible doesn't establish a lot of things by the exact words of common Orthodox belief. Can you show me where it establishes the truth about the trinity or the Omni attributes of God? The point is you have been inculcated into your beliefs and refuse to accept anything that the Bible will show you to the contrary.
Philemon 14
But without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.

So if you believe that God inspired the Bible and thus inspired Paul to write this then you must believe that he feels the same way about us not doing anything out of compulsion but by our free will. if you can't bring yourself to acknowledge this then you don't know the God of the Bible.

To keep it simple. Why would you want to choose Christ in the first place? Considering that everything in you hates the things of God cannot understand Gd and is a lover of darkness and dead in sin....tell me why would you choose Christ?

Answer: Because your eyes have been opened to see your sin for the first time and the beauty of Christ and the gospel. How did this come about? Well you cannot open your blind eyes by choosing to open them..that doesnt make sense. Simple answer: The Spirit opens your eyes and heart and will to choose Christ.

If the Spirit never did that you would NEVER choose CHRIST. EVER. Why? Because it goes against your own nature. Why in the world would I choose something I hate. I love sin and why in the world would that ever change. I mean tell me how can it change???? you say by choosing Christ... but again WHY WOULD i? What or who could ever get me to realize how sinful I am and therefore run willingly to the Gospel. Can I realise something im blind to? Nope. Can i realise how i hate sin even though i love sin? Nope. Only the Spirit. ​

 

[StanJ]

I dont deny free will Stan. I readily acknowledge though that a true 'free will' can only be found in Christ. Of course you can volunteer and choose.... the question is how can you choose Christ when the heart that makes the choice hates Christ? Answer these questions Stan and stop insinuating Im against the bible when the bible affirms our incapability and utter repulsiveness towards the gospel.

I agree that we make choices but those in the flesh cannot please God. So how do you please God when you are in the flesh? Thats why i keep saying you first must be born again. Whats the evidence that you have been born again? You choosing Christ

You deny that sinners have free will when in fact the Bible says that we were all reconciled to Christ while we were yet sinners. The choice as to whether or not we accept that reconciliation is in us, and as such means that all men have free will to choose to accept or reject Christ. Just as all men in the Old Testament could choose who they would serve. Joshua 24:15
You need to stop inserting your Calvinist Dogma into the scriptures because it's not there. The Bible clearly says sent as can choose Christ as Paul teaches and Romans 10:9-11. Why is it you refuse to acknowledge this scripture? I'm not insinuating anything I'm clearly stating that you are against what the Bible says in regards to Free Will and salvation.

Jesus clearly taught that evil men can make good decisions that please God but that doesn't mean everything we do is Christian's please his God either. One thing that doesn't please God for sure is insisting that his word does not say that we have free will and are able to make her own choices in regards to following him. You've been given many scriptures that show you're wrong and yet things took the dressing then you deflect to other issues and other scripture in an attempt to obfuscate the truth which thing clearly shows that you do not know how to respond to the truth scripture. Choosing Christ as our savior is an act of our free will. It brings closure to what God initiated by bringing redemption to the world and reconciling sinful man to himself.

 

[StanJ]

To keep it simple. Why would you want to choose Christ in the first place? Considering that everything in you hates the things of God cannot understand Gd and is a lover of darkness and dead in sin....tell me why would you choose Christ?

Answer: Because your eyes have been opened to see your sin for the first time and the beauty of Christ and the gospel. How did this come about? Well you cannot open your blind eyes by choosing to open them..that doesnt make sense. Simple answer: The Spirit opens your eyes and heart and will to choose Christ.

If the Spirit never did that you would NEVER choose CHRIST. EVER. Why? Because it goes against your own nature. Why in the world would I choose something I hate. I love sin and why in the world would that ever change. I mean tell me how can it change???? you say by choosing Christ... but again WHY WOULD i? What or who could ever get me to realize how sinful I am and therefore run willingly to the Gospel. Can I realise something im blind to? Nope. Can i realise how i hate sin even though i love sin? Nope. Only the Spirit. ​

If you really wanted to keep it simple you would follow what God's word says, but you continue to want to use your predispositional bias and the rationale you have built up by human reasoning.

God's word teaches that he draws us to Jesus and that we either accept the reality of who Jesus is meant to be in our lives or we reject it. if we accept it then we are baptized by the Holy Spirit and grow in power through the Holy Spirit as he makes God's word real to us in our lives. The problem with logic, as you have clearly demonstrated, is that you can talk yourself out of just about anything. No where does the bible imply or state that we as humans cannot make spiritual choices in our lives prior to accepting Jesus Christ. Many people make spiritual decisions prior to accepting Jesus Christ as their savior and the fact that you misrepresent and or do not understand what the Bible says about no man being good is why you continue to remain in confusion. It appears to me that you have never received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Why is that if you are saved?

 

[nowyouseem033]

If you really wanted to keep it simple you would follow what God's word says, but you continue to want to use your predispositional bias and the rationale you have built up by human reasoning.

God's word teaches that he draws us to Jesus and that we either accept the reality of who Jesus is meant to be in our lives or we reject it. if we accept it then we are baptized by the Holy Spirit and grow in power through the Holy Spirit as he makes God's word real to us in our lives. The problem with logic, as you have clearly demonstrated, is that you can talk yourself out of just about anything. No where does the bible imply or state that we as humans cannot make spiritual choices in our lives prior to accepting Jesus Christ. Many people make spiritual decisions prior to accepting Jesus Christ as their savior and the fact that you misrepresent and or do not understand what the Bible says about no man being good is why you continue to remain in confusion. It appears to me that you have never received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Why is that if you are saved?

You say where does the bible imply or state we cannot make spiritual decisions in our lives?

1 Corinthians 2:14 "The person without the Spirit does not accept the things of God but considers them foolishness and cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned"

(who is this talking about.... the sinner CANNOT ACCEPT nor CANNOT UNDERSTAND... why? because its foolish. Doesnt say may not accept or reject now does it) Id like to see how you would respond to this scripture.

1 Corinthians 1:18 "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those that are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God"

(Notice its say to US not all... same again foolishness to those who are perishing. Why? because they dont understand it. Why? Because they are not spiritually discerned.)

Romans 8:7-8 "...those in the flesh cannot please God"

Choosing Christ is pleasing to God but you cannot please him IN THE FLESH.

John 1:13 "children not born of human decent, nor human decision, nor a husbands command, but born of God"

This verse actually refutes the idea you are born of God through your human decision. You go against the scripture claiming we are born of God because of our decision.

You havent answered the questions i posted in 316, and make no attempt to but instead you like to mock me and say i do this and i do that and i have predispositional notions etc etc. Well take it up with scripture above about the incapability and non desire to choose Christ. Your 62 and the one whos acting immature.

Substantiate your claims. Refute my ideas. Instead of saying "oh you use your brain to much" What kind of argument is that?

 

[nowyouseem033]

You deny that sinners have free will when in fact the Bible says that we were all reconciled to Christ while we were yet sinners. The choice as to whether or not we accept that reconciliation is in us, and as such means that all men have free will to choose to accept or reject Christ. Just as all men in the Old Testament could choose who they would serve. Joshua 24:15
You need to stop inserting your Calvinist Dogma into the scriptures because it's not there. The Bible clearly says sent as can choose Christ as Paul teaches and Romans 10:9-11. Why is it you refuse to acknowledge this scripture? I'm not insinuating anything I'm clearly stating that you are against what the Bible says in regards to Free Will and salvation.

Jesus clearly taught that evil men can make good decisions that please God but that doesn't mean everything we do is Christian's please his God either. One thing that doesn't please God for sure is insisting that his word does not say that we have free will and are able to make her own choices in regards to following him. You've been given many scriptures that show you're wrong and yet things took the dressing then you deflect to other issues and other scripture in an attempt to obfuscate the truth which thing clearly shows that you do not know how to respond to the truth scripture. Choosing Christ as our savior is an act of our free will. It brings closure to what God initiated by bringing redemption to the world and reconciling sinful man to himself.

Romans 6:17 "you were slaves of sin" (but i still have a free will?)
John 8:34 "Truly truly i say to you, anyone who commits sin is a slave to sin" (But I still have free-will?)
Romans 3:10-11 "There is none righteous no not one, there is none who seeks God nor none who understands God" (Phew but i still have free will?)
Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (except our free will though right?)
John 3:3 "Truly truly i say to you unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (not unless i exercise my free-will Jesus)
John 6:44 "No one can come to me, unless the Father who sent me draw him" (Of course i can come...i have freewill right?)