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Thread: BEHOLD, THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH

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    Senior Member popeye's Avatar
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    Default Re: BEHOLD, THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH

    Quote Originally Posted by abcdef View Post
    Prophetic beliefs.

    Jesus is Lord.

    Where did I say anything like that?




    Perhaps you and I misunderstood each other.

    You posted the following;
    The scorpions are descriptive of the spirit of the men who are part of Restored to nationhood Rome 1929.

    Isaiah 9:15, "The ancient and honorable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail."

    They look honorable, but their sting is death (sin). (Rome/Vatican)

    The noise of their wings causes confusion (false teachings),

    You can't find the truth to be saved.

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    Senior Member popeye's Avatar
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    Default Re: BEHOLD, THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH

    Quote Originally Posted by abcdef View Post
    Remember?

    There is no website, no denomination, no group, no ministry.

    I will stand for the truth of scripture by myself, for His glory, because I believe the Bible.

    (the truth is not always the most popular thing)
    One man show is an incubator for error.

    we are a body,and my challenges to your beliefs prove you have not properly aligned your scenarios with the bible.

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    Default Re: BEHOLD, THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH

    Quote Originally Posted by popeye View Post
    All false doctrine carries with it "an impossibility"

    Look what you are doing. Now you are forced to spiritualize away the flying scorpions.
    1 Cor 2:14,

    ".....the things of the Spirit of God:....they are spiritually diserned,"

    The attributes of the spirit are what is described.

    John is in the spirit.

    He is taken up to heaven, spiritual.

    The things that he sees are spiritually discerned.



    Even the "seal" now has to mean something else.
    The 144000 are in heaven at the 5th trumpet.

    They are not finished sealing in heaven until the 6th trumpet.

    so they won't be bothered by the "Big Bugs",




    1) the flying scorpions are told not to eat green plants.
    Ooops
    The trees and grass are the natural branches of Israel, fig, olive.




    2) in your deal,you COMPLETELY leave out the heart of heaven,and God's target,the harvest if the bride.

    Rev 14, and the bride/groom dynamic,as well as the separation of God's dealing with the Jew and gentile are too great of obstacles for a historical doctrine to have any traction.
    The wedding cannot take place until after death is destroyed,

    It is after death is destroyed that the kingdom is delivered up to the Father, 1 Cor 15:23-28.




    The flying scorpions will forever be a obstacle for historicists.
    Not for me




    How did you miss the part where the scorpions are not allowed to eat vegetation?....proving they are literal insects????
    The trees and grass are symbolic of Israel, natural branches.

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    Default Re: BEHOLD, THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH

    Quote Originally Posted by popeye View Post
    One man show is an incubator for error.

    we are a body,and my challenges to your beliefs prove you have not properly aligned your scenarios with the bible.
    Challenges aren't proof of error.

  5. #45
    Senior Member tanakh's Avatar
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    Default Re: BEHOLD, THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH

    I am posting the full passage cited in Matthew 24 so that the true context of what Jesus says is included

    Immediately after the tribulation of those days
    shall the Sun be darkened and the Moon shall not give her light
    and the stars shall fall from heaven and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
    and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn
    and they shall see the Son of man coming in the in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory
    And he shall send his angels with the sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
    Now learn the parable of the fig tree. When his branch is yet tender and putteth forth leaves ye know that summer is nigh
    So likewise when ye shall see all these things know that it is near, even at the doors.
    verily I say unto you this generation shall not pass till all these things are fulfilled
    Heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall not pass away.

    Matthew 24: 29 - 35 KJV

    Its interesting to notice that Christ returns and the elect are gathered immediatly AFTER the tribulation not before.
    Last edited by tanakh; January 31st, 2017 at 05:05 PM.

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    Senior Member Ahwatukee's Avatar
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    Default Re: BEHOLD, THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH

    Quote Originally Posted by tanakh View Post
    I am posting the full passage cited in Matthew 24 so that the true context of what Jesus says is included

    Immediately after the tribulation of those days
    shall the Sun be darkened and the Moon shall not give her light
    and the stars shall fall from heaven and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
    and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn
    and they shall see the Son of man coming in the in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory
    And he shall send his angels with the sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
    Now learn the parable of the fig tree. When his branch is yet tender and putteth forth leaves ye know that summer is nigh
    So likewise when ye shall see all these things know that it is near, even at the doors.
    verily I say unto you this generation shall not pass till all these things are fulfilled
    Heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall not pass away.

    Matthew 24: 29 - 35 KJV

    Its interesting to notice that Christ returns and the elect are gathered immediatly AFTER the tribulation not before.
    Good day Tanakh,

    Again, the error is not understanding or recognizing that there will be those during the great tribulation who are not the church, but those who become believers in Christ after the church has been gathered. Because you don't recognize this, you apply the church as those whom the angels will be gathering at the end of the age. The problem is the same in that, by interpreting them as the church, it would have put the church through the entire wrath of God. For what remains constant is that, the wrath of God must take place prior to Christ's return the earth to end the age. As long as people continue to not recognize that those introduced in Rev.7:9-17 as not being the church, but are those who come to Christ after the church has been gathered, the error of misapplication will continue.

    Regarding the Lord sending out his angels, many attempt to make this the gathering of the church, when they will actually be "first" gathering the tares and then they will gather the wheat, which will be the great tribulation saints who will have made it through that entire seven years and specifically through the last 3 1/2 years until Christ returns. These are those, along with Israel, who will repopulate the earth during the millennial period.

    Many also attempt to make that "sound of a trumpet" synonymous with the "last trumpet" of 1 Cor.15:52, which is another on-going error. We cannot apply these two trumpets as being the same just because of the word "trumpet." For there are many different types of trumpets in scripture that signaled different events.

    The mainstay is that the church cannot go through God's coming wrath and that because scripture makes it clear that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. People have not understood the underlying principal in that, we cannot suffer God's wrath because Jesus already suffered the wrath that all believers deserve as a result of our sins and therefore, God's wrath has been satisfied by our Lord.

    Another on-going error is that expositors are not recognizing the difference between the trials and tribulations that Jesus said that believers would have because of their faith in him vs. God's coming, unprecedented wrath, which ushers in the end of the age and which believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer.

    According to scripture, Our "blessed hope," our longing, should be the appearing of our Lord to gather all believers according to His promise in John 14:1-3 and the fulfillment of that promise found in 1 Thes.4:13-18. After giving a detailed account of the Lord's appearing to gather the church, Paul ended with "therefore, comfort one another with these words." Consequently, if the church were to go through God's wrath and then be gathered, then it could not possibly be a blessed hope, nor would we have reason to comfort one another and that because believers would be suffering the same wrath as the wicked.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control ...

    I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit ...

    This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit ....

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    Default Re: BEHOLD, THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahwatukee View Post
    Hello John,

    Just FYI, the Male child which is a collective name for the 144,000, are NOT resurrected, but are "caught up" to God and to his throne, similar to how the living church is caught up at the time of the resurrection. In fact, the same word "Harpazo" is used to catch up the church is used of the 144,000 being caught up.

    "
    She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was "caught up" to God and to his throne,"



    Jesus rules with a rod of iron Rev 19:15.

    Jesus was caught up to heaven Acts 1:9

    But we can't have Jesus being born in the middle of the trib, can we?

    That would mean that the Rev is not one continual time line.


    The 144,000 and the great number of white robed saints are both future groups and therefore did not exist in 96 AD.

    They are seen with Jesus in heaven at the writing of the Rev



    The 144,000 is that male child who the woman Israel gives birth to during that last seven years

    They are seen in Rev ch 7, in heaven being sealed.

    But they are not born until Rev ch 12?

    Then they are seen in heaven again in Rev ch 14.

    When exactly are they supposed to be on earth preaching, as you say?

    Rev ch12 thru ch 14 is the only chance they get.



    i.e. this group comes out of Israel as the first fruits who recognize Jesus as their messiah.

    The firstfruits are among those who were resurrected with Jesus

    The first souls, of the first resurrection, Yes?



    The white robed saints which no man can count, are identified as the saints who come out of the great tribulation period,

    These are from the resurrection of Jesus.

    The trouble began when Rome/4th beast conquered Israel.

    These were killed during that time.


    which is that last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period.



    The Grt trib is from 70 ad until 1967, the 2nd 3 1/2 t's.



    In Rev.7:1-9, which is after the 6th seal, the 144,000 are sealed while on the earth. Rev.14 is a picture of the 144,000 after they are caught up to God's throne.



    They aren't even born until Rev ch 12?


    The seal that the 144,000 receive will be a literal, visible seal, as it will be recognizable by those demonic beings that come up out of the Abyss at the 5th trumpet, who will torment all of the inhabitants of the earth except those who have the seal of God on their foreheads.



    Torment the natural branches,

    unless they have the indwelling (gift, Acts 2:38) of the Holy Spirit of the Pentecost Kingdom.




    Scripture does indeed say that ONLY the 144,000 are sealed, as there is no other scripture that statues that any other group or individuals are sealed during that time.


    All members of the Pentecost Kingdom are sealed.

    1 Cor 1:21-22

    Eph 1:13, 4:30



    Remember what I said about false teachings regarding the prophecy of the book of Revelation? Well, you're doing exactly that. The sealing of the 144,000 has nothing to do with the second death, which is the lake of fire. Please provide the scripture(s) that state that the sealing of the 144,000 is against the second death.



    Eph 4:30



    There are three sets of seven judgments, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Therefore, the final judgment is not the 7th trumpet, for there are seven more bowl judgments which are to follow. It is not until after the 7th bowl judgment that Jesus returns to the earth to end the age.


    Rev is not one continual time line.



    The demonic beings that come up out of the Abyss at the 5th trumpet/1st woe, are not the spirits of men, but are demonic beings that are currently restricted in the Abyss and will be released at the sounding of the 5th trumpet. Please provide the scripture(s) where you got this information from.


    the symbolism comes from Nahum 3:17



    "I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

    You really need to consider what you have been teaching. For all that you have been doing is proclaiming false teachings regarding the book of Revelation and end-time events, which has grave consequences.

    I'm pretty sure this is a discussion forum,

    Where people talk about the Bible,

    I may disagree with you,

    But I won't accuse you.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: BEHOLD, THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH

    Good day John,

    Jesus rules with a rod of iron Rev 19:15.
    There are three mentioned as "ruling with a rod of iron."

    The Church/Overcomers:

    "To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father."

    The Male Child/144,000:

    "
    She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. "

    The Lord Jesus:


    "The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter."

    But we can't have Jesus being born in the middle of the trib, can we?

    That would mean that the Rev is not one continual time line


    Your error, as is the same with many is that, the "Male Child" of Revelation 12 is not representing Jesus, as he does not fit the criteria of the male child. As long you continue to apply Jesus as being the male child you will continue to err in your interpretation.

    They are seen with Jesus in heaven at the writing of the Revelation.
    And where in scripture do you see the 144,000 in heaven with Jesus at the writing of Revelation? Please provide the scripture.

    They are seen in Rev ch 7, in heaven being sealed.

    But they are not born until Rev ch 12?
    When the woman, Israel, gives birth to the male child, it is speaking figuratively, not meaning literal birth, but that the male child, which are 144,000 Israelites who will come out of (gives birth to) unbelieving Israel as believers in Jesus as their Messiah.

    When exactly are they supposed to be on earth preaching, as you say?
    Well, just to clarify, I never said that they would be teaching in any of my previous posts. The truth is that scripture does not say that they will be teaching or preaching the gospel, only that they are servants. But, I personally believe that this male child, the 144,000, will be proclaiming the truth of Christ throughout that entire first 3 1/2 years before the abomination is set up, which causes the woman/Israel who gives birth to them, to flee into the wilderness. The male child/144,000 will then be caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years, unharmed by the dragon/Satan.

    The firstfruits are among those who were resurrected with Jesus

    The first souls, of the first resurrection, Yes?
    Thus far, no one but Jesus has been resurrected into that immortal and glorified body. Those who were resurrected, who came out of the tombs after Christ's resurrection, were resurrected in the same manner as Lazarus and Tabitha, being resurrected back into their mortal bodies and who died again. The next group to be resurrected into those immortal and glorified bodies will be the church, which is our blessed hope.

    These are from the resurrection of Jesus.

    The trouble began when Rome/4th beast conquered Israel.

    These were killed during that time.
    NO! These who are mentioned in Rev.7:9-17 are those who will come out of the great tribulation, just as the elder proclaims:

    "Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
    I answered, “Sir, you know.”

    And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

    Consequently, the great tribulation has not yet taken place, but is a future event, which is specifically the last 3 1/2 years of that last seven year period.

    The Great tribulation is from 70 ad until 1967, the 2nd 3 1/2 t's.
    In Matt.24:15-21, Jesus identified the great tribulation as beginning from the setting up of the abomination, which is in the middle of that last seven years and which is still future. Regarding this time, the Lord said that it would be a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. In retrospect, nothing like what the Lord describes has yet taken place. That time of great tribulation is apply named because of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments that God will be unleashing upon the earth, as well as the activities of the beast and the false prophet. Further more regarding this coming great tribulation, it will be so destructive that the Lord said that, if those days were allowed to go on any longer, no one on earth would be left alive. Has the world seen anything of that magnitude and destruction from the time that Daniel and Jesus said it? Is anything recorded in history matching that destruction?

    All members of the Pentecost Kingdom are sealed.

    1 Cor 1:21-22

    Eph 1:13, 4:30
    First of all, the term "Pentecost kingdom" is not found in scripture. It appears to be a term that you have just made up. And second, 1 Cor. 1:21-22 says nothing in regards being sealed at all. Ephesians 1:13 however does mention believers being sealed, which is referring to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The sealing that will be done by to the 144,000 is a different sealing, with a literal, identifiable seal of God on their foreheads. That seal will most likely be in reference to when Jesus says that He will write on our foreheads the name of the Father, His name and the new Jerusalem on believers foreheads.

    Your error then is making the reference to the sealing/indwelling of the Holy Spirit as being the same as the seal that is put on the foreheads of the 144,000, which are two different types of sealing's. That said, the 144,000 are the only group mentioned in Revelation who are sealed with that literal seal in their foreheads, which identifies them with God and protects them from the torment of the 5th trumpet.

    Remember what I said about false teachings regarding the prophecy of the book of Revelation? Well, you're doing exactly that. The sealing of the 144,000 has nothing to do with the second death, which is the lake of fire. Please provide the scripture(s) that state that the sealing of the 144,000 is against the second death.

    Eph 4:30


    Regarding Eph.4:30, I'm not any of the following "bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice," but I am and have been contending for the truth and accuracy of God's word. Rebuking those who are teaching false teachings.

    Rev is not one continual time line.
    Revelation will take place in exactly the sequential order that it is given. The seals will take place first, which leads into the trumpet judgments, which will be followed by the bowl judgments. I don't why people insist on taking those events out of the order that God put them in, except for the purpose of supporting their false teachings.

    the symbolism comes from Nahum 3:17
    The immediate context of any given scripture should always be considered first. If you will study what the 5th trumpet reveals, you will find the following:

    * An angel opens the Abyss

    * Out of the Abyss comes these entities that have the appearance of locusts

    * They are not give power to kill but are command only to torment

    * They have faces like human faces, teeth like lions teeth and hair like women's hair and tails and stings like that of a scropion. Not your garden variety of locusts.

    * They have a king over them, which is the angel of the Abyss, that beast who once was, now is not and yet will come up out of the Abyss.

    Therefore, in view of the context, these are not your typical locusts, for they come up out of the Abyss, which is the same place that those demons collectively called "Legion" begged Jesus not to send them into, as found in Luke 8:30-31. Therefore, Nahum 3:17 should not be applied and that because it has nothing to do with these beings at the 5th trumpet, except for the word "locust."


    I'm pretty sure this is a discussion forum,

    Where people talk about the Bible,

    I may disagree with you,

    But I won't accuse you.
    The problem is that you are distorting and butchering scripture with your teachings and I am rebuking you for it. You do not stay within scripture, but introduce unsupported, wild teachings, which is why I mentioned the warning found in Rev.22. I'm flat out telling you that you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to end-time events and the book of Revelation, yet you continue teaching those things.








    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control ...

    I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit ...

    This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit ....

  9. #49
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    Default Re: BEHOLD, THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH

    Quote Originally Posted by abcdef View Post
    The beast, is the 4th beast of Dan. 7 and the Iron legs of Dan. 2, which is Rome.

    These are nations that rule over Israel until they are restored to Jerusalem..

    See that the ten horns and toes are also Roman nations.

    These nations last until the stone strikes Dan 2.

    So all of these events must take place before the stone strikes.

    --

    The nation Rome/beast,

    is seen coming out of the abyss at the 5th trumpet, he kills the 2 witnesses.

    But how can a nation (Rome) go into the abyss and then come out again?

    The Roman Empire (west) fell in 476 ad,

    But the religion of the Roman Empire (Caesar worship, Man is god-holy father, worship the creation, Babylon) continued in the RCC.

    Then in 1929 Rome became a nation again, the Vatican, Rome crawled out of the abyss.

    This is shown at the 5th trumpet, the 5th vial, and the dragon of Rev ch 20.

    ---

    The Rome/nation/beast invaded Israel which began the time of the iron legs and 4th beast.

    Caesar worship was around before John the Baptist (didn't take the mark).

    -----

    The book of the 7 seals could only be opened after Jerusalem was destroyed according to the angel of Dan. 12, (power of the holy people scattered).

    This would show that the Revelation to John occurred after 70 ad.

    The 6th seal shows the destruction of Jerusalem,

    the 7th seal show that everything that had to be done in order for the scroll to be opened, had been accomplished.

    --

    The seals and trumpets are showing God withdrawing blessings on the natural branches for rejecting the Pentecost Kingdom.

    The events depicted by the seals on the scroll had already been accomplished, in order for the Revelation to be written and revealed.

    If you say that the seals are to be opened in the future, then the story (2 witnesses) of the scroll could not be revealed until then.

    But Revelation has been with us, and the story revealed since it's writing 2000 years ago, so the seals are already opened.

    Don’t forget now that In Romans 13:1 it says that the Christians were suppose to look at Rome as "ordained of God" and that they were suppose pay tribute also Romans 13:6-7 so that would mean if you are correct then they had the mark of the beast and used his money to buy and sell but God didn't pour his wrath out on them for it.

    If you consider the thousand years in this light: it is a time frame where the devil is in the pit(rev. 20:2-3),so has no influence on the earth and that the beast and false prophet are already in the lake of fire (Rev.19:20) so it is an age,period of time on "earth" not in Heaven (Rev.20:8-9) where the influence of the beast,false prophet,nor the devil exist. Then after the thousand years the devil is loosed and is,still on "earth" (Rev,20:8-9).

    So there are three time frames spoken of one before the thousand years,the thousand years,then after the thousand years. Of these three the only one where the beast and the false prophet exist is the one prior to the thousand years. So they cant be in the portion of the time of the thousand years nor after it because they are already in the lake of fire before it begins on earth (Rev.20:8-9) nor after it.

    So in Revelation 13 all of the things of the seven headed beast and the two horned beast are events that take place before the thousand years begin. So beginning from the mark/image it cannot happen if the two horned beast has not come and the two horned beast comes after the 7 heads,ten horns ect. (Rev.13:11-12) because it states the seven headed beast is "before him/first beast",

    Now in Revelation 17:10 it says "one is" which is identified as the sixth head of the beast. Then there is a seventh head(after the sixth) and then the ten horns and is clarified as future to that point in time because they had at that time not received a kingdom yet (Rev.17:12). So from Rome(one is) then another kingdom arises after Rome(7th head) then 10 kings(ten horns) then the eighth. All of these exist after the Revelation is received and before the image/mark is set up and they did not exist when the Revelation was given hence they are spoken of in future tense.

    So in Revelation 14:9,19:20,ect. the wrath of God is poured out on those who have the mark or name or worship the image and no one else (Genesis 18:25). and so the wrath of God that is poured out on those who receive the mark or worship the image are the only ones who receive the wrath of God.

    So to resolve the issue of the wrath as beginning by ad70 on those who received the mark,name or worshipped the image ect. then not only would the sixth head(Rev.17:10) need to be present but the 7th,the ten horns,the 8th and the two horned beast would all have to exist prior to ad70 for the wrath of God to take place and if they had not yet come by ad70 beginning the wrath,bowels,trumpets ect. in theology would be in error.

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    Default Re: BEHOLD, THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahwatukee View Post
    Good day John,



    There are three mentioned as "ruling with a rod of iron."

    The Church/Overcomers:

    "To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father."

    The Male Child/144,000:

    "
    She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. "

    The Lord Jesus:


    "The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter."



    Your error, as is the same with many is that, the "Male Child" of Revelation 12 is not representing Jesus, as he does not fit the criteria of the male child. As long you continue to apply Jesus as being the male child you will continue to err in your interpretation.



    And where in scripture do you see the 144,000 in heaven with Jesus at the writing of Revelation? Please provide the scripture.



    When the woman, Israel, gives birth to the male child, it is speaking figuratively, not meaning literal birth, but that the male child, which are 144,000 Israelites who will come out of (gives birth to) unbelieving Israel as believers in Jesus as their Messiah.



    Well, just to clarify, I never said that they would be teaching in any of my previous posts. The truth is that scripture does not say that they will be teaching or preaching the gospel, only that they are servants. But, I personally believe that this male child, the 144,000, will be proclaiming the truth of Christ throughout that entire first 3 1/2 years before the abomination is set up, which causes the woman/Israel who gives birth to them, to flee into the wilderness. The male child/144,000 will then be caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years, unharmed by the dragon/Satan.



    Thus far, no one but Jesus has been resurrected into that immortal and glorified body. Those who were resurrected, who came out of the tombs after Christ's resurrection, were resurrected in the same manner as Lazarus and Tabitha, being resurrected back into their mortal bodies and who died again. The next group to be resurrected into those immortal and glorified bodies will be the church, which is our blessed hope.



    NO! These who are mentioned in Rev.7:9-17 are those who will come out of the great tribulation, just as the elder proclaims:

    "Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
    I answered, “Sir, you know.”

    And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

    Consequently, the great tribulation has not yet taken place, but is a future event, which is specifically the last 3 1/2 years of that last seven year period.



    In Matt.24:15-21, Jesus identified the great tribulation as beginning from the setting up of the abomination, which is in the middle of that last seven years and which is still future. Regarding this time, the Lord said that it would be a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen from the beginning, until now and never to be equaled again. In retrospect, nothing like what the Lord describes has yet taken place. That time of great tribulation is apply named because of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments that God will be unleashing upon the earth, as well as the activities of the beast and the false prophet. Further more regarding this coming great tribulation, it will be so destructive that the Lord said that, if those days were allowed to go on any longer, no one on earth would be left alive. Has the world seen anything of that magnitude and destruction from the time that Daniel and Jesus said it? Is anything recorded in history matching that destruction?



    First of all, the term "Pentecost kingdom" is not found in scripture. It appears to be a term that you have just made up. And second, 1 Cor. 1:21-22 says nothing in regards being sealed at all. Ephesians 1:13 however does mention believers being sealed, which is referring to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The sealing that will be done by to the 144,000 is a different sealing, with a literal, identifiable seal of God on their foreheads. That seal will most likely be in reference to when Jesus says that He will write on our foreheads the name of the Father, His name and the new Jerusalem on believers foreheads.

    Your error then is making the reference to the sealing/indwelling of the Holy Spirit as being the same as the seal that is put on the foreheads of the 144,000, which are two different types of sealing's. That said, the 144,000 are the only group mentioned in Revelation who are sealed with that literal seal in their foreheads, which identifies them with God and protects them from the torment of the 5th trumpet.



    Regarding Eph.4:30, I'm not any of the following "bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice," but I am and have been contending for the truth and accuracy of God's word. Rebuking those who are teaching false teachings.
    [/COLOR]


    Revelation will take place in exactly the sequential order that it is given. The seals will take place first, which leads into the trumpet judgments, which will be followed by the bowl judgments. I don't why people insist on taking those events out of the order that God put them in, except for the purpose of supporting their false teachings.



    The immediate context of any given scripture should always be considered first. If you will study what the 5th trumpet reveals, you will find the following:

    * An angel opens the Abyss

    * Out of the Abyss comes these entities that have the appearance of locusts

    * They are not give power to kill but are command only to torment

    * They have faces like human faces, teeth like lions teeth and hair like women's hair and tails and stings like that of a scropion. Not your garden variety of locusts.

    * They have a king over them, which is the angel of the Abyss, that beast who once was, now is not and yet will come up out of the Abyss.

    Therefore, in view of the context, these are not your typical locusts, for they come up out of the Abyss, which is the same place that those demons collectively called "Legion" begged Jesus not to send them into, as found in Luke 8:30-31. Therefore, Nahum 3:17 should not be applied and that because it has nothing to do with these beings at the 5th trumpet, except for the word "locust."




    The problem is that you are distorting and butchering scripture with your teachings and I am rebuking you for it. You do not stay within scripture, but introduce unsupported, wild teachings, which is why I mentioned the warning found in Rev.22. I'm flat out telling you that you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to end-time events and the book of Revelation, yet you continue teaching those things.








    [/SIZE][/FONT]

    My Brother,

    These things will start, have already started.

    Will you understand when the Bishop of Rome speaks the words that deceive the Kings of the East (Iran) into attacking Israel?

    Will you understand when Iran marches against Israel with it's allies?

    Will you understand when they meet in the valley of Armageddon?

    Will you understand when Israel is defeated?

    Will you understand when they lay siege to Jerusalem?

    Will you understand when Jerusalem falls and the armies of Iran and it's allies are standing in Jerusalem?

    Will you understand when they celebrate and send gifts to one another?

    Will you understand when the people of Israel are lying dead in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days?

    --

    What if.....this all happens just like (what I think) the Bible says,

    Would you believe that Jesus is coming?

    At what point would you be sure?

    Maybe after Israel loses in the battle of Armageddon?

    After Jerusalem falls to Iran?

    After the bodies are lying in the streets for a few days?

    It should be pretty obvious by then.

    --

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    Default Re: BEHOLD, THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH

    Quote Originally Posted by abcdef View Post
    .


    Jesus will come for the Pentecost kingdom 3 1/2 days after Jerusalem falls to Iran and it's allies.



    ---------


    This is based on 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24,


    1. 1st resurrection.....Jesus and all the OT saints

    The OT saints are seen with Jesus at the writing of the Revelation.

    2. 2nd resurrection....Jesus comes for the Pentecost Kingdom.

    The dead rise, we meet Him in the air.

    3. The end....of the resurrections and this planet. Fire from heaven Rev 20, last judgement.

    4. Death destroyed.....As shown in Rev 20:14-15.

    5. The Kingdom is delivered up to the Father.......For the wedding.

    6. Jesus submits to the Father to be all in all.

    ----------


    Revelation is not one timeline.


    The 7th trumpet (last), the 7th vial, and the fire from heaven in Rev 20, are all the same events.

    (the 6th/7th seals show the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad, [Lk 23:28-30, 30, compared to Rev 6:12:17, 16])





    =========================


    We are at the end of Revelation, not the beginning.

    The events that are taking place in the Middle East are leading to the fall of Jerusalem to Iran (Kings of the East) and their allies (Russia, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, etc, it's a long list).

    This is shown in Rev 20:2, as the dragon (Rome, Rev 12:3), deceiving Magog to surround Jerusalem. Also see Rev 16:12-16.


    =====================


    As time goes by,

    The situation will become clearer, if you have not realized it yet.

    Jerusalem is going to fall to Iran.

    3 1/2 days later will be the resurrection and the end of this planet.

    When the resurrection takes place, if you are still here,

    you will be killed by the fire from heaven.

    There won't be any 2nd chances.

    ====================
    I find this insulting to Pentecostals.

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    Senior Member tanakh's Avatar
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    Default Re: BEHOLD, THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH

    [QUOTE=Ahwatukee;2965996]

    Good day Tanakh,

    Again, the error is not understanding or recognizing that there will be those during the great tribulation who are not the church, but those who become believers in Christ after the church has been gathered. Because you don't recognize this, you apply the church as those whom the angels will be gathering at the end of the age. The problem is the same in that, by interpreting them as the church, it would have put the church through the entire wrath of God. For what remains constant is that, the wrath of God must take place prior to Christ's return the earth to end the age. As long as people continue to not recognize that those introduced in Rev.7:9-17 as not being the church, but are those who come to Christ after the church has been gathered, the error of misapplication will continue.

    Regarding the Lord sending out his angels, many attempt to make this the gathering of the church, when they will actually be "first" gathering the tares and then they will gather the wheat, which will be the great tribulation saints who will have made it through that entire seven years and specifically through the last 3 1/2 years until Christ returns. These are those, along with Israel, who will repopulate the earth during the millennial period.

    Many also attempt to make that "sound of a trumpet" synonymous with the "last trumpet" of 1 Cor.15:52, which is another on-going error. We cannot apply these two trumpets as being the same just because of the word "trumpet." For there are many different types of trumpets in scripture that signaled different events.

    The mainstay is that the church cannot go through God's coming wrath and that because scripture makes it clear that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. People have not understood the underlying principal in that, we cannot suffer God's wrath because Jesus already suffered the wrath that all believers deserve as a result of our sins and therefore, God's wrath has been satisfied by our Lord.

    Another on-going error is that expositors are not recognizing the difference between the trials and tribulations that Jesus said that believers would have because of their faith in him vs. God's coming, unprecedented wrath, which ushers in the end of the age and which believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer.

    According to scripture, Our "blessed hope," our longing, should be the appearing of our Lord to gather all believers according to His promise in John 14:1-3 and the fulfillment of that promise found in 1 Thes.4:13-18. After giving a detailed account of the Lord's appearing to gather the church, Paul ended with "therefore, comfort one another with these words." Consequently, if the church were to go through God's wrath and then be gathered, then it could not possibly be a blessed hope, nor would we have reason to comfort one another and that because believers would be suffering the same wrath as the wicked.
    [/QUOTE/

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    Default Re: BEHOLD, THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH

    Ahwatukukee

    Jesus was talking to his Disciples in Matthew 24. He and his Disciples formed the church. Christ has one body and one bride, not several. Salvation comes through belief in Christ and his sacrifice. The Bible is given to us to understand Gods plan for the world. Mattew 24 is in plain English My belief in the second coming as stated in my post is the same belief that the Church has had for centuries only Evangelical Americans seem to have a difficulty with it. Your problem is that your reading into the text something that is not there. As I said Christ has one Bride not one on Earth and one raptured.
    As for the wrath of God there is a difference between going through it and being subjected to it. There are examples in the Bible. Noah and his family went through the flood and remained on earth. Lot left Sodom and was allowed to flee to a nearby town. The Israelites stayed in Egypt during the plagues and were not touched by them. Joshua destroyed Jericho but Rahab was spared. It seems to me that much spoken about the last days is the result of people including yourself interpretation Scripture to make it fit into a pre conceived doctrine that gets more complex as time goes on.

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    Default Re: BEHOLD, THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen63 View Post
    I find this insulting to Pentecostals.
    Why, because I call the kingdom, the Pentecost Kingdom?

    I'm guessing about the reason that you are offended.

    Sorry that offends you, it's not meant to.

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    Default Re: BEHOLD, THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen63 View Post
    I find this insulting to Pentecostals.

    Maybe a short explanation about why I call the kingdom the Pentecost Kingdom.


    It has nothing to do with the denominations with that name.


    The word "church" has been so distorted over the years, and sometimes twisted, that I, personally, prefer not to use it at all.


    The "church" began on Pentecost, that is why I call it that.

    ----

    When you talk to people, you don't know how they are understanding the definition of the word, church.

    They might see the word church as meaning the local congregation, as in the local church building.

    Some might understand it as their denomination exclusively, as the RCC does.

    Or maybe the gentile side of the church only.

    ------

    When the words "Pentecost Kingdom" are used it returns the definition to it's basic and simple meaning.

    The Jesus the King, and the kingdom that was promised, were fulfilled on that day.

    ------

    At first, to Israel exclusively, for years, no gentiles. (3 1/2?)

    Then the gentiles were allowed to receive the indwelling (gift, Acts 2:38) of the Holy Spirit.

    Sometimes to readjust the focus of the meaning of the Kingdom, I may call it the "Kingdom of the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit", but I prefer Pentecost Kingdom.

    ---------

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    Default Re: BEHOLD, THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH

    Quote Originally Posted by iamsoandso View Post
    Don’t forget now that In Romans 13:1 it says that the Christians were suppose to look at Rome as "ordained of God" and that they were suppose pay tribute also Romans 13:6-7 so that would mean if you are correct then they had the mark of the beast and used his money to buy and sell but God didn't pour his wrath out on them for it.
    Rome was shown to be the 4th beast of Dan, 7 and the iron legs of Dan. 2.

    Since the prophecy was from God, that meant that it had to come to pass.

    To fight against Rome by violent and material means was going against God's will, (Yes/no)?

    We are supposed to fight evil with our spiritual sword and aim for the heart.

    But I don't necessarily think of paying taxes as being the same as worshiping Caesar.




    If you consider the thousand years in this light: it is a time frame where the devil is in the pit(rev. 20:2-3),so has no influence on the earth
    The devil is called the dragon in Rev 20:2.

    The dragon is identified as Satan the spirit, dwelling in the 4th beast, which is Rome, Rev 12:3.

    Satan was cast down from heaven on the Day of Pentecost, Rev 12:10, "...Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ:...."

    That is the beginning of the 1000 yr (symbolic) reign.

    The 1st resurrection is where Jesus rose 1 Cor 15:23-28.

    It doesn't say that he is powerless, the only restriction in this context (Rev 20) is that he only cannot deceive Magog into surrounding Jerusalem.

    As long as there is flesh, there will be sin, 1 Jn 1:16-17.



    and that the beast and false prophet are already in the lake of fire (Rev.19:20)
    Remember that the beast is a nation, Rome.

    Rev ch 19, is the prophecy of fall the Sea Beast, the Roman Empire.

    The souls of the Caesars and their associates are thrown into the lake of fire, (no waiting line)

    See how there is a remnant, that is the Earth Beast, the Vatican, the "image" of the beast (Caesar worship)



    so it is an age,period of time on "earth" not in Heaven (Rev.20:8-9)

    A time period on earth and heaven,

    It is the time of the Pentecost Kingdom,

    Jesus sits on the throne and rules the kingdom now.


    where the influence of the beast,false prophet,nor the devil exist.


    Then after the thousand years the devil is loosed and is,still on "earth" (Rev,20:8-9).
    The devil spirit is Rome the dragon v 2,

    Rome, the dragon, the 4th beast, renewed in 1929,The Caesar image became a nation again.

    He is now deceiving Magog into surrounding Jerusalem.



    So there are three time frames spoken of one before the thousand years,the thousand years,then after the thousand years.
    Rev 20 begins a new time frame separate from ch 19.

    Ch 20 begins the new time frame at the 1st resurrection Jesus.

    The Pentecost Kingdom is on earth until the 2nd resurrection, 1 Cor 15:23-28,-23-24.


    Of these three the only one where the beast and the false prophet exist is the one prior to the thousand years. So they cant be in the portion of the time of the thousand years nor after it because they are already in the lake of fire before it begins on earth (Rev.20:8-9) nor after it.
    The 2nd half of the 7 times, some call the GT,

    Begins in 70 ad and lasts until 1967 when Israel is restored to Jerusalem.

    The mill Kingdom lasts from Pentecost until the 2nd/final resurrection,

    so they run pretty much at the same time.


    So in Revelation 13 all of the things of the seven headed beast and the two horned beast are events that take place before the thousand years begin.
    Rev is not one time line.



    So beginning from the mark/image it cannot happen if the two horned beast has not come and the two horned beast comes after the 7 heads,ten horns ect. (Rev.13:11-12) because it states the seven headed beast is "before him/first beast",
    All the heads and horns of the 4th beast are Rome.




    Now in Revelation 17:10 it says "one is" which is identified as the sixth head of the beast.
    The 7 heads represent the life of the beast Rome.

    When the 7th head dies, everyone would expecxt that the beast (Rome) was dead, 476 ad.

    But no, an image of Rome, the religion of Rome, Caesar worship continues to this day.


    Then there is a seventh head(after the sixth)
    The remainder of the time of the Roman empire until it's fall.



    and then the ten horns and is clarified as future to that point in time because they had at that time not received a kingdom yet (Rev.17:12).
    When the Roman fell it became completely divided, the symbolic number 10.

    The nations were future for John's time.



    So from Rome(one is) then another kingdom arises after Rome(7th head)
    Another phase of the 4th beast Rome, the image phase.



    then 10 kings(ten horns)



    then the eighth.


    All of these exist after the Revelation is received and before the image/mark is set up and they did not exist when the Revelation was given hence they are spoken of in future tense.
    Rome the head that is,

    is the 7th and 8th, The 8th head is one of the 7 Rev 17:11, Roman.





    So in Revelation 14:9,19:20,ect. the wrath of God is poured out on those who have the mark or name or worship the image and no one else (Genesis 18:25). and so the wrath of God that is poured out on those who receive the mark or worship the image are the only ones who receive the wrath of God.
    The wrath of God is against sin, whoever sins.


    So to resolve the issue of the wrath as beginning by ad70 on those who received the mark,name or worshipped the image ect. then not only would the sixth head(Rev.17:10) need to be present

    Rome's presence began with the invasion of Israel.

    The 4th beast Rome.





    but the 7th,the ten horns,the 8th and the two horned beast would all have to exist prior to ad70 for the wrath of God to take place and if they had not yet come by ad70 beginning the wrath,bowels,trumpets ect. in theology would be in error.

    There is only one 4th beast.

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    Senior Member tanakh's Avatar
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    Default Re: BEHOLD, THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH

    Quote Originally Posted by abcdef View Post
    .


    Jesus will come for the Pentecost kingdom 3 1/2 days after Jerusalem falls to Iran and it's allies.



    ---------


    This is based on 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24,


    1. 1st resurrection.....Jesus and all the OT saints

    The OT saints are seen with Jesus at the writing of the Revelation.

    2. 2nd resurrection....Jesus comes for the Pentecost Kingdom.

    The dead rise, we meet Him in the air.

    3. The end....of the resurrections and this planet. Fire from heaven Rev 20, last judgement.

    4. Death destroyed.....As shown in Rev 20:14-15.

    5. The Kingdom is delivered up to the Father.......For the wedding.

    6. Jesus submits to the Father to be all in all.

    ----------


    Revelation is not one timeline.


    The 7th trumpet (last), the 7th vial, and the fire from heaven in Rev 20, are all the same events.

    (the 6th/7th seals show the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad, [Lk 23:28-30, 30, compared to Rev 6:12:17, 16])





    =========================


    We are at the end of Revelation, not the beginning.

    The events that are taking place in the Middle East are leading to the fall of Jerusalem to Iran (Kings of the East) and their allies (Russia, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, etc, it's a long list).

    This is shown in Rev 20:2, as the dragon (Rome, Rev 12:3), deceiving Magog to surround Jerusalem. Also see Rev 16:12-16.


    =====================


    As time goes by,

    The situation will become clearer, if you have not realized it yet.

    Jerusalem is going to fall to Iran.

    3 1/2 days later will be the resurrection and the end of this planet.

    When the resurrection takes place, if you are still here,

    you will be killed by the fire from heaven.

    There won't be any 2nd chances.

    ====================
    Questions to consider

    Suppose Jerusalem doesn't Fall in our lifetime?

    Suppose Jerusalem does fall but nothing else happens?

    Suppose Iran has another revolution/War and the Mullahs go the same way as the Shah and their whole political stance changes.

    Will any of these events destroy your faith I know they wont destroy mine.

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    Default Re: BEHOLD, THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH

    Quote Originally Posted by tanakh View Post
    Questions to consider
    Thank you.


    Suppose Jerusalem doesn't Fall in our lifetime?

    In the years of men, I can't tell when.

    It could be years from now, or months.



    The important thing is this.....Show by the scriptures that this is a reasonable possibility.

    That these things, according to scriptures, COULD be coming true.

    IF THEY ARE POSSIBLE, then they must be examined.

    And if they are studied and the events pass, or fall into place at a later time, the awareness of the possibility,

    would help in he recognition of the events of prophecy occurring.

    That is, many souls can be saved by recognizing the fulfillment of prophecy.

    I don't have to be here, but I do have to share the understanding,

    Is it 100% correct? I try.



    Suppose Jerusalem does fall but nothing else happens?
    Back to the scriptures.


    Suppose Iran has another revolution/War and the Mullahs go the same way as the Shah and their whole political stance changes.
    Maybe they will give their hearts to Jesus, but I doubt it.


    Will any of these events destroy your faith I know they wont destroy mine.

    Since our faith is based on the truth that Jesus, the son of God, died, rose from the dead, and that He loves us, basically,

    There is no reason to believe that this interpretation of the scriptures is necessary to faith, in Jesus.

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    Senior Member iamsoandso's Avatar
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    Default Re: BEHOLD, THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH

    Quote Originally Posted by abcdef View Post
    Rome was shown to be the 4th beast of Dan, 7 and the iron legs of Dan. 2.

    Since the prophecy was from God, that meant that it had to come to pass.

    To fight against Rome by violent and material means was going against God's will, (Yes/no)?

    We are supposed to fight evil with our spiritual sword and aim for the heart.

    But I don't necessarily think of paying taxes as being the same as worshiping Caesar.






    The devil is called the dragon in Rev 20:2.

    The dragon is identified as Satan the spirit, dwelling in the 4th beast, which is Rome, Rev 12:3.

    Satan was cast down from heaven on the Day of Pentecost, Rev 12:10, "...Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ:...."

    That is the beginning of the 1000 yr (symbolic) reign.

    The 1st resurrection is where Jesus rose 1 Cor 15:23-28.

    It doesn't say that he is powerless, the only restriction in this context (Rev 20) is that he only cannot deceive Magog into surrounding Jerusalem.

    As long as there is flesh, there will be sin, 1 Jn 1:16-17.





    Remember that the beast is a nation, Rome.

    Rev ch 19, is the prophecy of fall the Sea Beast, the Roman Empire.

    The souls of the Caesars and their associates are thrown into the lake of fire, (no waiting line)

    See how there is a remnant, that is the Earth Beast, the Vatican, the "image" of the beast (Caesar worship)






    A time period on earth and heaven,

    It is the time of the Pentecost Kingdom,

    Jesus sits on the throne and rules the kingdom now.








    The devil spirit is Rome the dragon v 2,

    Rome, the dragon, the 4th beast, renewed in 1929,The Caesar image became a nation again.

    He is now deceiving Magog into surrounding Jerusalem.





    Rev 20 begins a new time frame separate from ch 19.

    Ch 20 begins the new time frame at the 1st resurrection Jesus.

    The Pentecost Kingdom is on earth until the 2nd resurrection, 1 Cor 15:23-28,-23-24.




    The 2nd half of the 7 times, some call the GT,

    Begins in 70 ad and lasts until 1967 when Israel is restored to Jerusalem.

    The mill Kingdom lasts from Pentecost until the 2nd/final resurrection,

    so they run pretty much at the same time.




    Rev is not one time line.





    All the heads and horns of the 4th beast are Rome.






    The 7 heads represent the life of the beast Rome.

    When the 7th head dies, everyone would expecxt that the beast (Rome) was dead, 476 ad.

    But no, an image of Rome, the religion of Rome, Caesar worship continues to this day.




    The remainder of the time of the Roman empire until it's fall.





    When the Roman fell it became completely divided, the symbolic number 10.

    The nations were future for John's time.





    Another phase of the 4th beast Rome, the image phase.














    Rome the head that is,

    is the 7th and 8th, The 8th head is one of the 7 Rev 17:11, Roman.







    The wrath of God is against sin, whoever sins.





    Rome's presence began with the invasion of Israel.

    The 4th beast Rome.








    There is only one 4th beast.



    lol,ok notice how many times you said "Rome",then how many times you refer back to Daniel trying to resolve Revelation.

    Then consider this your saying the Rev. was written in ad96, in it there is a warning about a beast that brings about a mark/image ect. and that it is a warning to so that none will be caught up in the mark/image thing.


    Now consider this, If the four beast of Daniel are from a point in time in Daniels life and they cover 470 years from A to B and you think point B is ad70 and you think ad96 is when the rev. was given do you notice you think that the warning about the beast,mark ect. are 26 years "too late"?

    I'll say it again if it is so what you are saying the book/Rev./warning was given 26 years too late and so God poured out his wrath on Jerusalem before he warned them about the mark,beast stuff?

    In Daniel,when it talks about the beast did you notice there is "no woman" riding their back? Did you notice in Daniel there is no warning about an image of the beast name,mark,666 ?

    but anyway why bother with the Revelation at all if it is all fulfilled before ad70 who would need to know when to flee or guard yourself from 26 years after the fact.
    Last edited by iamsoandso; February 1st, 2017 at 08:01 PM.

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    Senior Member iamsoandso's Avatar
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    Default Re: BEHOLD, THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH

    "It" I left out the word "it" in the last sentence,lol

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