Dcontroversal
Please don't make me post Ephesians again!!!
EVERYONE from day one was saved by FAITH.
OK.
So why did Jesus have to die if everyone from the beginning was saved by faith????
Eternal Security You CANNOT lose your salvation! by David J. Stewart | January 2004
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Dcontroversal
Please don't make me post Ephesians again!!!
EVERYONE from day one was saved by FAITH.
OK.
So why did Jesus have to die if everyone from the beginning was saved by faith????
I agree with this.
Faith is trust in God, that through obedience and walking with Him we will have our
sins forgiven.
If there is no forgiveness of sins, why walk righteously if our hearts desire lusts of the
flesh.
If the ways of the Lord are righteous, and we desire these ways and fellowship with God
why would we not walk righteously.
The only difference between the new and old testament is the degree of communion with
God. After Christ we commune with God in our hearts. Before it was more distant and
ceremonial through the law and the temple with sacrifices.
And once we know God and His ways we have eternal security, if we walk within them.
And why would we not if we are born by the Holy Spirit from on High and walk in the
ways of the cross.
Hi Magenta.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!
Let's do 1 John 2:19. How could anyone say that anyone was not really saved, that's the question.
For starters, I trust the Apostle JOHN, but here goes...
1 John 2 is titled that Christ is our advocate.
What's interesting is that I keep being told that we don't have to do works, but here in the chapter you refer to, once again we're told that we ARE to keep the commandments.
1 John 2:4
The one who says he has come to Christ and does not keep His commandments is a liar - John said this, not me.
verse 5: But whoever keeps His word, in him the word of God has truly been perfected. The one who says he abides in HIm, must walk in the same manner.
1 John 2:18-19 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that [a]it would be shown that they all are not of us.
1 John 2:18 is telling us that many anti-Christs have risen. By this, Peter felt they were near the end of the world.
These anti-Christs went OUT FROM AMONG the believers, but they were not really of the believers.
Someone who simply believes or does not believe in Christ is not an anti-Christ.
These people were the wolves in sheep's clothing, trying to convince Others that Jesus was not The Christ, or God.
Mathew 7:15-20
Jesus was speaking here about people, ministers, who would try to infiltrate the Church by being wolves in sheep's clothing.
verse 23, interestingly says that the one who denies the Father does not have the Son. So, as I said in a different post, God wills that all know Christ, but not all do. If one denies the Father, he also denies the Son and so is lost.
John 10:25-30
Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and My Father are one.”
10:28 eternal life. Christ’s gift (see note on 3:15). never perish. The Greek construction here is a strong denial that the sheep will ever perish. The sheep’s security is in the power of the shepherd, who will let no one take them from him (see 3:16).
I am not sure that my hands are big enough and strong enough to prize open Gods hands to let go of me. The reason being is that when I genuinely believed my Father now has me in his hands.
Yes I may go astray and when I do he seeks me out.
I am not a 5 point Calvanist, it's a dangerous doctirne in that it can cause us to sit back and think, no point praying for so and so, there is now way God can save them. Very dangerous and presumptuous and judgemental.
At the end of the day we can all give verses that we feel support our position. And if we are not changed with our own views then it's ok to agree to disagree. As long as what one beleives does not detract from the fact that Jesus Christ is the son of God, who died and rose again to reconcile us back to the Father.
Also and I have said it a previous post. Whether you are a Calvanist or an Arminian never ever propose when a person has gone missing that they were never part of the elect or that they have lost their salvation.
If someone goes missing, seek them out, go after the sheep has gone astray.
I know you love Jesus and want to be like him, also that you want others to be like him. And I'm sure you seek out the one who has gone missing in action.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness.
Eph says we were saved BY Grace THROUGH faith.
Faith is the means by which grace is applied..
Fran, this is why I find their antagonism so unexpected.
Some of my theology in terms of election and choice is very OSAS.
I realise how little choice we have lost in sin. I think it is impossible to be free
unless God embraces us and cleans us, and gives us eyes to see.
But then once we can see we have a choice, because that is the power of
the Kingdom. And with such choice comes the opportunity to fail. To deny this
is to make us robots, captured in the love and Kingdom, which is to deny the
very principles by which God in the trinity operates. Jesus chose to come to die
because it was the Fathers will, but He could have chosen not do, but love drove
Him on.
It is this openness which is also the power of love. In the light you see why love must
chose a path, and the light shows there is no other way. Once darkness closes in, it
gives the illusion that there is a choice, as if death and emptiness is a choice against
life, love and eternity. And that for me is the paradox. There is no fear in love and
the cross, because the deeper you go the more inevitable it all is.
If some nut job wants to kill me because I love Jesus, becoming like the nut job is not
going to save my life, it will just make it 100% worse. It is far better to die and be with
the Lord and eternity than carry on in this crazy conflicted place of lostness and emptiness.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
No we would not make that determination. That would be judging a persons salvation.
We would say a person (no name) who is an antichrist because they deny Christ, have never been saved to begin with. Because that is what the apostle John says.
Yes, See the misunderstanding.. That's how arguments get started..
Nope. Because no induviduals salvation can be determined by anyone, that is between them and God.
We can claim no one can lose salvation. And if if anyone CLAIMS to be saved, that does not mean they are.. And NO ONE should assume they know.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
OSASers would not agree with that at all.
SIns are not forgiven by being obedient and walking with him. Sins are forgiven faith in the work of Christ.
The fact you said you agree with Peter just goes to show why we think you preach works.. Peter claimed salvation is by obedience, thus if you agree with him, you follow also in his works based legalism.
Now I do not claim salvation is anything other than through faith in God and His nature.
You know me EG so why do you lie about my faith so easily. I have written my belief
system in a blog, and yet you continue this slander and distortion.
I am surprised that you cannot even modify your statement to the truth of your position.
I follow salvation by faith, shown through obedience, which you interpret as salvation
by obedience that leads to faith.
Now I can state you position correctly and interpretation because truth matters to me.
Sin is such a grevious thing, but in your theology, to lie about me is nothing, because
God will forgive you straight away. Now to me this means everything you say is empty
without value or foundation.
If you stand with Christ, you have to stand with purity, love and honesty. There is no
other way of being in the light. It is who Christ is.
Ummm I don't necessarily say that or believe that.....maybe some were never saved...maybe some just had a bad experience and lost heart or even faith...but one thing I know for sure.....
HE that began a good work will finish it and he will not forsake those who have exercised faith.......after initial belief....JESUS takes the reigns and it is ALL his work and faith....!
Listen to me Eternally Gratefull
I'm tired this evening and am sticking to lighthearted stuff.
JI'll answer your posts Tomorrow. I'll just say this:
1. You'll never have an argument with me. I'm here to debate, not to argue. I pulled Dcontroversals leg a little, but we made up and we're good. And it wasn't mean-hearted anyway.
2. You totally misrepresented what PeterJens said.
WHY do you do this continually? You do this with me too.
I believe you have preconceived notions as to what a person is going to say.
Forget everything you know.
Start over with each post and really read it.
NO ONE here is saying that one is saved by works.
We all know our theology.
However, if you think WORKS don't come after salvation, you're sadly mistaken and it could be proven very easily.
Fran
Hey D
Tomorrow.
In the meantime, explain to me why Jesus had to die if everyone in the bible from the beginning of time was saved by faith.
Thanks.
so you call someone who told the truth about you a lair, refused to apologize for falsely accusing a solid brother in Christ of blasphemy, then talk about purity, love, and honesty. unbelievable.
talk about having a conscious seared with a hot iron, you have a perfect example of that here.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
I am here to debate also.. As long as we do this, we will be fine.
Originally Posted by PeterJens
I agree with this.
Faith is trust in God, that through obedience and walking with Him we will have our
sins forgiven.
Please do not tell me I misunderstood this. It is quite clear. Peter said we are forgiven THROUGH obedience and walking with him. He has been saying this for months, And when he is confronted. He never denys it, Also please see his thread title Did Jesus Do enough..
I do not do anything but repeat what people say..
That would be peter.. Again, I have had this discussion with peter for months. Many of us have, And he continues to say the same stuff.
Been there done that.
Now can you ask peter to do this? peter has been slandering us for months now..
Peter is. He can deny it all he wants.. He does. He said plainly Christ did not do enough on the cross.
You are leaning towards it. And if you agree with peter. You do also..
See. And you say I do not listen. Go look at my posts. I have always maintained works come after salvation. Again, you need to practice what you preach.
Here is a contradiction. OSAS stands on a simple sales principle.
Put faith in Christ and you are saved. You are sealed by the Holy Spirit.
Now many here talk on the basis not only they are saved but they have the right to
disown other believers who have almost identical beliefs yet vary about one issue.
So what I am observing is a mirage of beliefs. It is taking an opportunistic position
because it works in an argument, but the real agenda is just to oppose the labelled enemy.
If none has knowledge of being sealed in Christ, then what is the point of the experience
or Paul mentioning it. Now equally people have experienced being lost, a prodigal son
away from God.
So I would suggest the beliefs being held do not match up with the experience people
have and what scripture teaches. Is it so hard to realise God rules above our theories,
and reigns in our hearts to bring about His will. So let us honour Him and walk in love,
and find fellowship in encouraging each other to walk in the Spirit, Amen.
Please show me where I said someone commited blasphemy.
I did read that another member said they had come close to blasphemy, but
that was not even me.
So my friend, gb9, unless you can show what you say is true, though you
might believe it in your mind, it is a lie. It does matter or else you yourself
are compromising your own integrity and proving my point, that slander and
abuse come too easily to your group, without the conscience and ability to
recognise sin.
I have pointed this out to you more than once today, so please stop, unless
you want to be reported for abuse and harassing a member.
If you have to seriously ask that question based upon what I said....your missing much....!
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