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Thread: the way of salvation

  1. #1
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    Default the way of salvation

    God’s will is that none should perish but all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3: 9; 1 Tim. 2: 4, 6)
    By His foreknowledge, God chose the elect before the creation of the world. (1 Pet. 1: 2; Eph. Eph. 1: 4, 5)
    The Holy Spirit was sent to convict the world, not just the elect, of sin, righteousness and judgment. (John 16: 8-11)
    Those who are convicted are drawn, effectively but not irresistibly, to Jesus, our Lord, by the gospel. (John 6: 44; 12: 32)
    The three requirements of discipleship are to deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Him. (Matt. 16: 24, 25)
    He that comes after Him, denies himself even as Jesus emptied and humbled Himself. (Philip. 2: 5-11)
    God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud; He opens the heart to respond in faith, hope and love; when one believes with all his heart, he is begotten by God and given the right to become a son of God through faith and baptism in His name. (James 4: 6; Acts 14: 16; John 1; 12, 13; Gal 3; 26, 27)
    When Jesus took up His cross it was to die for the sins of everyone; when the elect takes up their cross it is to die to the old self so as to be free from sin. This is accomplished through faith, by repentance and baptism, in water, in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sin. (Heb. 2: 9; Rom. 6: 3-7)
    Those who by faith obey our Lord, are sprinkled with the blood of Christ and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and are baptized with the Spirit. (1 Pet. 1: 2; Acts 2: 38, 39; 5: 32; 10: 45; 11: 16)
    When they come forth from the baptismal experience they are born of water and Spirit. (John 3: 5)
    The third requirement of discipleship is to follow Him by observing all things He commanded. (Matt. 28: 20)
    All spiritual blessings, including redemption, justification, sonship, salvation and life, are in Christ (Eph. 1: 3); the elect are baptized into Christ. (Rom. 6: 3; Gal. 3: 26, 27; 1 Cor. 12: 13)
    God bless.
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    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: the way of salvation

    Thank you. Well articulated and put together. God bless you as well!

    GodBlessYousp.gif
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    Embrace the Grace and Rejoice in His Everlasting Mercy and Love

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    Senior Member mailmandan's Avatar
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    Default Re: the way of salvation

    Quote Originally Posted by plaintalk View Post
    God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud; He opens the heart to respond in faith, hope and love; when one believes with all his heart, he is begotten by God and given the right to become a son of God through faith and baptism in His name. (James 4: 6; Acts 14: 16; John 1; 12, 13; Gal 3; 26, 27)
    John 1:12 reads - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. *Nothing there about baptism. Galatians 3:26 reads - For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus(.) *Not faith and baptism. *When are you going to finally accept the truth that man is saved through faith in Christ prior to receiving water baptism?

    When Jesus took up His cross it was to die for the sins of everyone; when the elect takes up their cross it is to die to the old self so as to be free from sin. This is accomplished through faith, by repentance and baptism, in water, in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sin. (Heb. 2: 9; Rom. 6: 3-7)
    Repentance actually precedes saving faith in Christ which precedes water baptism (Acts 20:21; 10:43-47; 11:17,18).

    Those who by faith obey our Lord, are sprinkled with the blood of Christ and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and are baptized with the Spirit. (1 Pet. 1: 2; Acts 2: 38, 39; 5: 32; 10: 45; 11: 16)
    We are saved at the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ for salvation BEFORE we accomplish any further acts of obedience/works (Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..). You are confusing the act of obedience by which we choose to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16) with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow saving faith in Christ. The end result is salvation by works.

    When they come forth from the baptismal experience they are born of water and Spirit. (John 3: 5)
    False. Water baptism is not the reality, but the PICTURE of the reality. You are drinking the wrong water (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39; 1 Corinthians 12:13).

    The third requirement of discipleship is to follow Him by observing all things He commanded. (Matt. 28: 20)
    This is what we are saved FOR and NOT BY (Ephesians 2:10).

    All spiritual blessings, including redemption, justification, sonship, salvation and life, are in Christ (Eph. 1: 3); the elect are baptized into Christ. (Rom. 6: 3; Gal. 3: 26, 27; 1 Cor. 12: 13)
    God bless.
    You also confuse water baptism with Spirit baptism. What a mess! I truly hope and pray that you find your way out of Campbellism and into the light of the glorious gospel of Christ (2 Corinthians 4:4) which is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16).

    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Senior Member Hizikyah's Avatar
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    Default Re: the way of salvation

    1 Corinthians 6:11, "And such were some of you. But now you are washed, now you are sanctified, now you are justified in the Name of Yahshua Messiah, and by the Spirit of our Father."


    1 Peter 1:2, "Elect according to the fore knowledge of YHWH the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Yahshua Messiah: Love and peace be multiplied to you."


    1 Timothy 6:11-12, "But you, O man of YHWH, flee from these things, and pursue righteousness, holiness, faith, love, patience, meekness; Fight the righteous fight of the faith, lay hold on eternal life; for to this you were also called, and have confessed the righteous confession in the presence of many witnesses."


    1 Kepha 1:13-21, "Therefore, gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the undeserved pardon that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Yahshua Messiah. As obedient children, do not conform to the former lusts you had when you lived in ignorance; But as He Who called you is holy, so you also become holy in all your conduct; Because it is written Be holy, for I am holy. And if you call on the Father, Who, without respect of persons judges according to each man's work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your sojourning here in reverence; Knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, such as silver or gold, from your idolatrous way of life handed down to you by tradition from your forefathers; But with the precious blood of Messiah, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot; Who truly was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you; Who through Him we do believe in YHWH, Who raised Him up from the dead, and gave Him glory; that your faith and hope might be in YHWH."


    Ephesians 5:8-14, "For you were once darkness, but now you are light, as YHWH. Walk as children of light, For the fruit of the light, is namely, all holiness, righteousness, and truth-- Proving what is acceptable to YHWH. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead, expose them-- Even though it is shameful to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. However, all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light--for whatever makes manifest is light! Therefore, He says: Awake, you who sleep, arise from the dead, and the Messiah will give you light."


    Ezekiyl 18:20, "The soul that sins, it will die. The son will not bear the iniquity of the father, nor will the father bear the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."


    Revelation 22:11, "He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; and he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; and he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; and he who is holy, let him be holy still."


    2 Corinthians 5:10, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah, that each one may receive his reward according to what he has done in the body, whether righteous or evil.”


    Colossians 3:24-25, “Knowing that from YHWH you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for you serve Yahshua the Messiah. But he who does wrong will receive the reward for the wrong he has done, and there is no respect of persons.”


    Romans 2:4-11, “Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, forbearance, and longsuffering; not realizing that YHWH’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But according to your stubborn and impenitent mind you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of YHWH’s wrath, when the righteous judgment of YHWH will be revealed; when He will reward each one according to his works: to the ones on the one hand, who, by patient persistence in doing righteousness, seek for glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life. But to the ones on the other hand, who are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give indignation and wrath.” Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man who does evil: to the Yahdai(Jew) first, and also to the Greek (Gentile) But glory, honor, and peace to every man who works righteousness: to the Yahdai first, and also to the Greek. For there is no respect of persons with YHWH.”
    Mt5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

    Rev21:1-2, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

    Rom3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."

    Rom3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"


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    Default Re: the way of salvation

    God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud; He opens the heart to respond in faith, hope and love; when one believes with all his heart, he is begotten by God and given the right to become a son of God through faith and baptism in His name. (James 4: 6; Acts 14: 16; John 1; 12, 13; Gal 3; 26, 27)


    Mailmandan writes: thread- the way of salvation, #3
    John 1:12 reads - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. *Nothing there about baptism. Galatians 3:26 reads - For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus(.) *Not faith and baptism. *When are you going to finally accept the truth that man is saved through faith in Christ prior to receiving water baptism?

    Response:
    26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. (Gal. 3: 26, 27)
    Those that received Him as the Christ and the Son of God by believing in His name were given the right to become children of God and they were begotten by God (John 1: 13) In the physical realm the zygote is implanted in the uterus of the mother. In the spiritual realm the word of God, the seed, is implanted in the heart of the believer. (James 1: 18, 21) At the first moment of meaningful faith, not mental assent, we are begotten by God and given the right to become children of God. This is accomplished by the exercise of the will of God, not ours. Faith is the work of God. (John 6: 29) We receive faith as a gift from God (Rom. 12: 3, by the grace of God (Acts 18: 27; He opens our hearts to respond to the message in faith, hope and love. (Acts 16: 14)

    We become children of God by faith when that faith leads us to obey by being baptized into Christ and thereby being clothed with Christ. One of the attributes of Christ which we receive is sonship. Jesus is the Son of God, therefore when we are baptized into Him we become children of God. The truth is all spiritual blessings are in Christ (Eph. 1: 3, 7), this includes redemption, salvation (2 Tim 2; 10) and eternal life (1 John 5: 10, 11)
    God bless.
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    Default Re: the way of salvation

    The conversion of Saul, the Apostle Paul
    Saul of Tarsus, a Jew, was traveling to Damascus to persecute the church, when a bright light appeared, he fell to the ground; Jesus, our Lord, ask why he was persecuting Me. Saul asked, “Who art thou, Lord?” And He said, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting.” The Lord instructed Saul, who was blinded, to go in the city and he would be told what he must do. Saul was three days without sight, fasting and praying. Ananias, a disciple, was sent by Jesus to Saul. Many believe and teach that Saul was saved and received the Holy Spirit at the moment of faith. Saul, the Apostle Paul, tell a different story. Four versions of this story are found in Acts 9, 22, 26 and Galatians 1.
    17 So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized; 19 and he took food and was strengthened. (Acts 9: 17- 19)
    Ananias was sent so that Saul might regain sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit (9: 17) Ananias told Saul, he had been appointed to know His will, see the Righteous One, to hear an utterance from His mouth and to be a witness of what you have seen and heard. (Acts 22: 14, 15) Then Ananias said, Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name. (Acts 22: 16 NASB) Was Paul saved prior to this instruction by Ananias? Clearly, he was not or he would have been saved while still in his sin. What does the Apostle Paul, formerly Saul of Tarsus, say about baptism? Is baptism parenthetical, an adjunct, a picture of realty, merely a symbol, not absolutely necessary, a work that does not save? Or is baptism one of the seven pillars of the unity of the Spirit? (Eph. 4: 3-6) Can we simply ignore the instruction of our Lord to his apostles to go to all the nations and make disciples by baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and teaching them to observe all things commanded? Do we dare diminish the instruction of our Lord to go to all creation and preach the gospel so that he who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved? Surely not!

    Paul received the gospel message directly from the Lord; he includes himself in several of the statements about baptism? All of us, he says, who were baptized into Christ, were baptized into his death, therefore we have been buried with Him in order that we might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death we certainly will be united with Him in the likeness of His resurrection; knowing that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away that we should no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. (Rom. 6: 3-7) Does that appear unimportant? Can we in any way considered ourselves to be disciples if we have not died with Him in baptism?

    Paul’s sins were washed away when he was baptized, because when he obeyed he, like all of us, was sprinkled with the blood of Christ. (1 Peter 1: 2) When he was baptized, he called upon the name of the Lord for a clean conscience; Peter tells us that baptism is an appeal to God for a good conscience. (1 Peter 3: 21)

    Some say the verse should read, Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, having called on the name of the Lord previously.” True, but immaterial because “Having called on the name of the Lord” refers to just having been baptized. Remember his sins had not been washed away in three days of fasting and prayer. If he had previously, effectively called on the name of the Lord, he would not have still been in sin.

    Some say that Paul received the Holy Spirit before he was baptized; a more careful reading of Act 9: 17 reveals that the statement about the Holy Spirit was made in reference to Ananias’ responsibilities not about the time of Paul’s reception of the Spirit. According to Paul, the Holy Spirit is given to sons of God (Gal. 4: 6) and according to Paul, one become a son when he is by faith baptized into Christ and clothed with Christ. (Gal. 3: 26, 27) According to Paul, he was by/ in/ with one Spirit, baptized into one body and made to drink of the one Spirit. (1 Cor. 12: 13)

    According to Paul he was blessed with every spiritual blessing in Christ; he was baptized into Christ; this includes redemption, the forgiveness of sins, (Eph. 1: 4, 7, Col 1: 14), salvation (2 Tim. 2: 10), sonship (Gal. 3: 26,27), eternal life (1 John 5; 10, 11) and everything else we receive by being baptized into Christ and His death. God bless.
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    Senior Member notuptome's Avatar
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    Default Re: the way of salvation

    Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
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    The bible is a mirror not a magnifying glass
    use it to examine yourself not others.

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    Senior Member mailmandan's Avatar
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    Default Re: the way of salvation

    Quote Originally Posted by plaintalk View Post
    Response:
    26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. (Gal. 3: 26, 27)
    Paul clearly said that we are sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus (.) PERIOD! End of sentence and thought on how we become children of God. Next sentence, next thought - For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on/clothed yourselves with Christ. The Greek word for "put on" is "enduo" and means to enclose oneself in, as when one "puts on" clothes or armor or some other item. Involved in this is the idea of "imitation" and "identification." Just as 1 Corinthians 10:2 says that all (the Israelites) were "baptized into Moses" in the cloud and in the sea, but this does not mean they were literally water baptized into the body of Moses just as we are not literally water baptized into the body of Christ. We are Spirit baptized into the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). *You need to rightly divide the word of truth.

    So how does one "put on" Christ in baptism? Is it because one becomes a "child of God" through water baptism? NO. Is Paul saying that we become children of God by water baptism as much as children of God by faith in Christ? NO.

    "Let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light...put on (endue) the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof" (Romans 13:12,14). This exhortation is written to Christians (those already saved). Evidently then, baptism is not the only way to "put on" Christ. To "put on" Christ is to conform to Him, imitate Him. So it is in baptism; we "put on" Christ, conforming to Him in the ordinance that declares Him to be our Savior. So if "put on" Christ means saved through water baptism, apparently we are not saved yet. We must also "put on" Christ by making no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts in order to be saved as well (Romans 13:14). Right? NO. *This exhortation is to those ALREADY SAVED.

    "Put off," wrote Paul, "the old man," and "put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness"(Ephesians 4:22,24); And, "put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil" (Ephesians 6:11). *Written to those ALREADY SAVED.

    The allusion is to putting off old clothes and putting on new ones, to enclosing oneself in armor, etc. When a soldier puts on a uniform, he is revealing himself to be a soldier and putting on what he has previously been qualified to wear. One does not put on a uniform in order to become a soldier. Simply putting on a soldier's uniform does not make one become a soldier. Once one is made a soldier he is then able to put on and wear the uniform that distinguishes or marks them as a soldier.

    Putting on a judge's robe does not, in itself, make anyone a "judge." But, one who has been made a judge is qualified to put on "judicial robes" and thus declare their qualifications.

    So too with being water baptized, the Christian puts on robes for which they have previously been qualified to wear. The putting on of Christ is not what makes one become a Christian, but one which becomes a token of it, as in Romans 13:14.

    *If one puts on the clothes of a Christian, in water baptism, without first becoming a Christian (child of God through faith)​, then one becomes an imposter, and is declaring, in baptism, to be what they are not.

    Those that received Him as the Christ and the Son of God by believing in His name were given the right to become children of God and they were begotten by God (John 1: 13)
    Amen! By believing in His name BEFORE water baptism.

    In the physical realm the zygote is implanted in the uterus of the mother. In the spiritual realm the word of God, the seed, is implanted in the heart of the believer. (James 1: 18, 21) At the first moment of meaningful faith, not mental assent, we are begotten by God and given the right to become children of God.
    Meaningful faith trusts exclusively in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation and is not mere mental assent belief. In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. I believe "mental assent" that George Washington existed and I also believe in the historical facts about George Washington, but I am not trusting in George Washington to save my soul. See the difference? Saving belief/faith is more than just an "intellectual acknowledgment" to the existence and historical facts about Christ. Saving belief/faith is a complete trust in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. Are you ready to repent "change your mind" and trust exclusively in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation? Or are you determined to continue to trust in "water and works" as the means of your salvation, which renders Christ and IN-sufficient Savior.

    This is accomplished by the exercise of the will of God, not ours. Faith is the work of God. (John 6: 29) We receive faith as a gift from God (Rom. 12: 3, by the grace of God (Acts 18: 27; He opens our hearts to respond to the message in faith, hope and love. (Acts 16: 14)
    God draws us (John 6:44) and enables us (John 6:65) and we choose to respond.

    We become children of God by faith when that faith leads us to obey by being baptized into Christ and thereby being clothed with Christ.
    False. We become children of God by faith in Christ BEFORE water baptism. Period. We are Spirit baptized "into the body of Christ" (1 Corinthians 12:13) not water baptized. In what sense are we water baptized into Christ? In the same sense that the Israelites were "baptized into Moses" (1 Corinthians 10:2) in regards to identification. Were the Israelites literally water baptized into the body of Moses? Absolutely not. As Greek scholar AT Robertson explains - Baptism is the public proclamation of one's inward spiritual relation to Christ attained before the baptism. Into his death (ei ton qanaton autou). So here "unto his death," "in relation to his death," which relation Paul proceeds to explain by the symbolism of the ordinance. We were buried therefore with him by means of baptism unto death (sunetaphmen oun autwi dia tou baptismato ei ton qanaton). Second aorist passive indicative of sunqaptw, old verb to bury together with, in N.T. only here and Colossians 2:12 . With associative instrumental case (autwi) and "by means of baptism unto death" as in verse Colossians 3. In newness of life (en kainothti zwh). The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin (verse Colossians 1 ), forwards to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave (F. B. Meyer). There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave. It is a tragedy that Paul's majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it. It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality. Water baptism is the PICTURE, NOT THE CAUSE.

    One of the attributes of Christ which we receive is sonship. Jesus is the Son of God, therefore when we are baptized into Him we become children of God.
    When we are Spirit baptized into Him, not water baptized, we become children of God. You continue to confuse water baptism with Spirit baptism. Your Campbell's soup theology is a real mess and your absolute obsession with water baptism is ludicrous.

    The truth is all spiritual blessings are in Christ (Eph. 1: 3, 7), this includes redemption, salvation (2 Tim 2; 10) and eternal life (1 John 5: 10, 11) God bless.
    The truth is your Campbellism gospel is a perversion of the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). All spiritual blessings are in Christ, in the body of Christ through Spirit baptism (1 Corinthians 12:13). When will you BELIEVE?
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

  9. #9
    Senior Member mailmandan's Avatar
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    Default Re: the way of salvation

    Quote Originally Posted by plaintalk View Post
    The conversion of Saul, the Apostle Paul
    Saul of Tarsus, a Jew, was traveling to Damascus to persecute the church, when a bright light appeared, he fell to the ground; Jesus, our Lord, ask why he was persecuting Me. Saul asked, “Who art thou, Lord?” And He said, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting.” The Lord instructed Saul, who was blinded, to go in the city and he would be told what he must do. Saul was three days without sight, fasting and praying. Ananias, a disciple, was sent by Jesus to Saul. Many believe and teach that Saul was saved and received the Holy Spirit at the moment of faith. Saul, the Apostle Paul, tell a different story. Four versions of this story are found in Acts 9, 22, 26 and Galatians 1.
    17 So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized; 19 and he took food and was strengthened. (Acts 9: 17- 19)
    Ananias was sent so that Saul might regain sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit (9: 17) Ananias told Saul, he had been appointed to know His will, see the Righteous One, to hear an utterance from His mouth and to be a witness of what you have seen and heard. (Acts 22: 14, 15) Then Ananias said, Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name. (Acts 22: 16 NASB) Was Paul saved prior to this instruction by Ananias? Clearly, he was not or he would have been saved while still in his sin. What does the Apostle Paul, formerly Saul of Tarsus, say about baptism? Is baptism parenthetical, an adjunct, a picture of realty, merely a symbol, not absolutely necessary, a work that does not save? Or is baptism one of the seven pillars of the unity of the Spirit? (Eph. 4: 3-6) Can we simply ignore the instruction of our Lord to his apostles to go to all the nations and make disciples by baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and teaching them to observe all things commanded?
    I see that your absolute obsession with water baptism continues. Your church should be labeled a water baptism cult. The first question that must be answered is "when was Paul saved?" Paul tells that he did not receive or hear the Gospel from Ananias, but rather he heard it directly from Christ. Galatians 1:11-12 says, "For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ." Paul had repented (Acts 9:6). "Lord, what will you have me to do?" Repentance means a "change of mind," and is wrought by the grace of God. Paul once persecuted the Lord (Acts 9:5), but is now ready to serve Him demonstrating the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8; Acts 26:20). Paul had believed. He had Christ as his Lord (Acts 9:6). The Bible tells us that "no man can say that Jesus is Lord except "by" the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3). Paul had, by the work of the Holy Spirit, submitted to Christ as Lord. Paul prayed (Acts 9:11). "Behold, he is praying," the Lord said to Ananias. This indicates that Paul's praying was pleasing to God. Campbellites teach that God does not hear an unsaved man's prayer, quoting in this regard John 9:31 - "We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will." Well, Paul was a worshipper of God, calling Christ "Lord" and ready to do His will. All of these things characterized Paul before he was baptized. So, Paul heard and believed in Christ on the road to Damascus. Paul had already believed in Christ when Ananias came to pray for him to receive his sight (Acts 9:17). It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)--this was before he was baptized (Acts 9:18). Acts 9 does not specifically tell us when Saul was filled with the Spirit, but verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. *We know that he received his sight prior to his water baptism. It's also interesting that when Paul recounted this event again later in Acts (Acts 26:12-18), he did not mention Ananias or what Ananias said to him at all. Verse 18 again would confirm the idea that Paul received Christ as Savior on the road to Damascus since here Christ is telling Paul he will be a messenger for Him concerning forgiveness of sins for Gentiles as they have faith in Him. It would seem unlikely that Christ would commission Paul if Paul had not yet believed in Him and was not saved.

    The Greek aorist participle, epikalesamenos, properly translated means "having called" on the name of the Lord. Paul’s calling on Christ's name for salvation preceded his water baptism. It is absurd to think that Paul had not yet called upon the name of the Lord and that water baptism is all the same as calling on the name of the Lord. This "washing away of sin" in water baptism was only "formal" or symbolic. As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - baptism here pictures the washing away of sins by the blood of Christ. Water baptism does not wash the soul. This occurred earlier when Paul came to faith in Christ. Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary makes not of the importance of the Greek in Ananias' statement. When Ananias tells Paul to "arise, be baptized, wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord," the tense of the last command is literally "having called" (aorist middle participle). "Calling on [epikalesamenos] --- 'having (that is, after having) called on,' referring the confession of Christ which preceded baptism." [Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, vol. 3 pg. 160]. Kenneth Wuest picks up on this Greek nuance and translates the verse as follows: "And now, why are you delaying? Having arisen, be baptized and wash away your sins, having previously called upon His Name." (Acts 22:16, Wuest's Expanded NT). The thief on the cross was saved when he called on the name of the Lord in faith - "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." (Luke 23:43) *The thief was not even water baptized.* As I explained to you before, no Scripture is to be interpretated in isololation from the totality of Scripture. Practically speaking, a singular and obscure verse is to be subservient to to multiple and clear verses, and not vice versa.

    Do we dare diminish the instruction of our Lord to go to all creation and preach the gospel so that he who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved? Surely not!
    Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned." If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. You twist the instruction of the Lord in order to accommodate your false gospel and diminish what Jesus said in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26.

    The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish (including water baptism) as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen as the Savior of those who BELIEVE the gospel by trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. When will you BELIEVE?

    Paul received the gospel message directly from the Lord; he includes himself in several of the statements about baptism? All of us, he says, who were baptized into Christ, were baptized into his death, therefore we have been buried with Him in order that we might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death we certainly will be united with Him in the likeness of His resurrection; knowing that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away that we should no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. (Rom. 6: 3-7) Does that appear unimportant? Can we in any way considered ourselves to be disciples if we have not died with Him in baptism?
    Nobody is saying that water baptism is unimportant, but you are confusing the symbol with the reality. As Greek scholar AT Robertson explains - Baptism is the public proclamation of one's inward spiritual relation to Christ attained before the baptism. See on "Galatians 3:27" where it is like putting on an outward garment or uniform. Into his death (ei ton qanaton autou). So here "unto his death," "in relation to his death," which relation Paul proceeds to explain by the symbolism of the ordinance. We were buried therefore with him by means of baptism unto death (sunetaphmen oun autwi dia tou baptismato ei ton qanaton). Second aorist passive indicative of sunqaptw, old verb to bury together with, in N.T. only here and Colossians 2:12 . With associative instrumental case (autwi) and "by means of baptism unto death" as in verse Colossians 3. In newness of life (en kainothti zwh). The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin (verse Colossians 1 ), forwards to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave (F. B. Meyer). There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave. It is a tragedy that Paul's majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it. It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality. Water baptism is the PICTURE, NOT THE CAUSE.

    Paul’s sins were washed away when he was baptized, because when he obeyed he, like all of us, was sprinkled with the blood of Christ. (1 Peter 1: 2)
    False. Baptism is the emblem of the washing away of sins by the death of Christ. Every time a believer is immersed he washes away his sins in the same SENSE Paul did: not literally, but ceremonially, pointing to the death of Christ by which sins were actually washed away.

    When he was baptized, he called upon the name of the Lord for a clean conscience;
    Once again, the Greek aorist participle, epikalesamenos, properly translated means "having called" on the name of the Lord. Paul’s calling on Christ's name for salvation preceded his water baptism. It is absurd to think that Paul had not yet called upon the name of the Lord and that water baptism is all the same as calling on the name of the Lord. This "washing away of sin" in water baptism was only "formal" or symbolic. It did not refer to the washing of the soul. This occurred earlier when Paul came to faith in Christ.

    Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary makes not of the importance of the Greek in Ananias' statement. When Ananias tells Paul to "arise, be baptized, wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord," the tense of the last command is literally "having called" (aorist middle participle). "Calling on [epikalesamenos] --- 'having (that is, after having) called on,' referring the confession of Christ which preceded baptism." [Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, vol. 3 pg. 160]. Kenneth Wuest picks up on this Greek nuance and translates the verse as follows: "And now, why are you delaying? Having arisen, be baptized and wash away your sins, having previously called upon His Name." (Acts 22:16, Wuest's Expanded NT).

    Peter tells us that baptism is an appeal to God for a good conscience. (1 Peter 3: 21)
    In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He says that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism). Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.

    Some say the verse should read, Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, having called on the name of the Lord previously.” True,
    Even you admit it! TRUE!

    but immaterial because “Having called on the name of the Lord” refers to just having been baptized. Remember his sins had not been washed away in three days of fasting and prayer. If he had previously, effectively called on the name of the Lord, he would not have still been in sin.
    *Again, Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary makes not of the importance of the Greek in Ananias' statement. When Ananias tells Paul to "arise, be baptized, wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord," the tense of the last command is literally "having called" (aorist middle participle). "Calling on [epikalesamenos] --- 'having (that is, after having) called on,' referring the confession of Christ which preceded baptism." [Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, vol. 3 pg. 160]. Kenneth Wuest picks up on this Greek nuance and translates the verse as follows: "And now, why are you delaying? Having arisen, be baptized and wash away your sins, having previously called upon His Name." (Acts 22:16, Wuest's Expanded NT).

    Some say that Paul received the Holy Spirit before he was baptized; a more careful reading of Act 9: 17 reveals that the statement about the Holy Spirit was made in reference to Ananias’ responsibilities not about the time of Paul’s reception of the Spirit.
    Again, Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)--this was before he was baptized (Acts 9:18). Acts 9 does not specifically tell us when Saul was filled with the Spirit, but verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. *We know that he received his sight prior to his water baptism.

    According to Paul, the Holy Spirit is given to sons of God (Gal. 4: 6) and according to Paul, one become a son when he is by faith baptized into Christ and clothed with Christ. (Gal. 3: 26, 27)
    That's not what Paul said. You twisted these verses to accommodate your false teaching. Paul clearly said that we are sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus (.) PERIOD! End of sentence and thought on how we become children of God. Next sentence, next thought.. as I thoroughly explained in post #8.

    According to Paul, he was by/ in/ with one Spirit, baptized into one body and made to drink of the one Spirit. (1 Cor. 12: 13)
    This is Spirit baptism (hence, by one SPIRIT) baptized into one body and made to drink into one Spirit. *Also see John 4:10-14; 7:37-39 in regards to "drink/water/Spirit."

    According to Paul he was blessed with every spiritual blessing in Christ; he was baptized into Christ; this includes redemption, the forgiveness of sins, (Eph. 1: 4, 7, Col 1: 14), salvation (2 Tim. 2: 10), sonship (Gal. 3: 26,27), eternal life (1 John 5; 10, 11) and everything else we receive by being baptized into Christ and His death. God bless.
    By being Spirit baptized into Christ. Water baptism is the PICTURE, but NOT the reality. You continue to confuse the picture with the reality. The natural man does not understand and is spiritually discerned. When will you BELIEVE?
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

  10. #10
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    Originally Posted by plaintalk [IMG]file:///C:/Users/Floy/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.png[/IMG]
    God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud; He opens the heart to respond in faith, hope and love; when one believes with all his heart, he is begotten by God and given the right to become a son of God through faith and baptism in His name. (James 4: 6; Acts 14: 16; John 1; 12, 13; Gal 3; 26, 27)
    Mailmandan writes: thread- the way of salvation, post #3
    John 1:12 reads - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. *Nothing there about baptism. Galatians 3:26 reads - For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus(.) *Not faith and baptism. *When are you going to finally accept the truth that man is saved through faith in Christ prior to receiving water baptism?

    Response:
    The point of John 1: 12, 13 is that those that received Jesus as Lord, Christ and Son of God are given the right to become children of God. How is this accomplished? Galatians 3: 26, 27 tells us. (26) For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. (27) For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. (Gal. 3: 26, 27 Dan conveniently, for him, does not quote verse 27. These two verses tell us that we are all sons of God through faith. Dan wants to stop right there, period end of thought. But of course it is not the end of the thought, the next sentence continues with the preposition for, it tells how we are sons of God through faith, for all of you who were baptize into Christ have been clothed with Christ and his attributes. One of the attribute is sonship, He is a son of God. When we are by faith baptized into Christ, all of his attributes are imputed to us. We become sons because He is the Son. However given the right to become a son of God is not the same as being a son. Citizens of this nation have the right to vote, that does not mean that they have voted. We do not become sons of God until our faith leads us to be baptized.

    What is our spiritual condition immediately upon believing? We are “begotten” by God. A. T. Robertson tells us in his NT Word Pictures that the word “born,” (v. 13) means “begotten”. When we first believe with all are heart and mind that Jesus is Lord, Christ and Son of God we are begotten by God through the exercise of His will. Faith is a work of God (John 6: 29), received by us as a gift by the grace of God. Our status is comparable to the unborn child, in his mother’s womb. Yes, we become a son of God through faith and baptism.

    Jesus said, “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved.” (Mark 16: 16) Faith and baptism. We are saved when our faith works with our works of faith (baptism) to perfect our faith.
    (James 2: 22) I will accept the truth that a man is saved by faith prior to water baptism when you can show me from the Scriptures that this is true. God bless.

  11. #11
    Senior Member fredoheaven's Avatar
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    Default Re: the way of salvation

    Quote Originally Posted by plaintalk View Post
    Originally Posted by plaintalk [IMG]file:///C:/Users/Floy/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.png[/IMG]
    God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud; He opens the heart to respond in faith, hope and love; when one believes with all his heart, he is begotten by God and given the right to become a son of God through faith and baptism in His name. (James 4: 6; Acts 14: 16; John 1; 12, 13; Gal 3; 26, 27)
    Mailmandan writes: thread- the way of salvation, post #3
    John 1:12 reads - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. *Nothing there about baptism. Galatians 3:26 reads - For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus(.) *Not faith and baptism. *When are you going to finally accept the truth that man is saved through faith in Christ prior to receiving water baptism?

    Response:
    The point of John 1: 12, 13 is that those that received Jesus as Lord, Christ and Son of God are given the right to become children of God. How is this accomplished? Galatians 3: 26, 27 tells us. (26) For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. (27) For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. (Gal. 3: 26, 27 Dan conveniently, for him, does not quote verse 27. These two verses tell us that we are all sons of God through faith. Dan wants to stop right there, period end of thought. But of course it is not the end of the thought, the next sentence continues with the preposition for, it tells how we are sons of God through faith, for all of you who were baptize into Christ have been clothed with Christ and his attributes. One of the attribute is sonship, He is a son of God. When we are by faith baptized into Christ, all of his attributes are imputed to us. We become sons because He is the Son. However given the right to become a son of God is not the same as being a son. Citizens of this nation have the right to vote, that does not mean that they have voted. We do not become sons of God until our faith leads us to be baptized.

    What is our spiritual condition immediately upon believing? We are “begotten” by God. A. T. Robertson tells us in his NT Word Pictures that the word “born,” (v. 13) means “begotten”. When we first believe with all are heart and mind that Jesus is Lord, Christ and Son of God we are begotten by God through the exercise of His will. Faith is a work of God (John 6: 29), received by us as a gift by the grace of God. Our status is comparable to the unborn child, in his mother’s womb. Yes, we become a son of God through faith and baptism.

    Jesus said, “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved.” (Mark 16: 16) Faith and baptism. We are saved when our faith works with our works of faith (baptism) to perfect our faith.
    (James 2: 22) I will accept the truth that a man is saved by faith prior to water baptism when you can show me from the Scriptures that this is true. God bless.
    Isn't John 1:12 teaches that those who received Christ are those who believed?
    Does our faith needs perfection through our works? Isn't this is not faith after all?
    How do we define faith?
    How the Bible defines faith?

    Thanks

  12. #12
    Senior Member mailmandan's Avatar
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    Default Re: the way of salvation

    As I already told you in the ONE BAPTISM thread - ONE BAPTISM - Ephesians 4:5

    I'm sorry plain talk, but I have already refuted your erroneous arguments ​above and elsewhere multiple times in numerous posts on this thread and in other threads, but unfortunately, you are thoroughly indoctrinated into Campbellism and you simply REFUSE to BELIEVE the gospel (Romans 1:16; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4).

    You continue to distort and pervert passages of Scripture in an effort of "patching together" your "watered down" gospel plan. Your false gospel is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics. I am tired of wasting my time beating a dead horse and there is really nothing left for me to do except shake the dust off my shoes and move on. You are not fooling me or any other believers on Christian Chat with your perverted gospel. I will continue to hope and pray that at least a seed has been planted from our conversations that one day soon will get watered and lead you to saving faith in Christ. That would be wonderful! Continue to seek FOR the truth and God bless. I will continue to pray for you.

    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: the way of salvation

    fredoheaven: thread- the way of salvation, post #11
    Thanks for your comments. IMO faith in God is agreement or assent to the truth of certain propositions about God. For example: God exists and rewards those that seek; or that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. IMO there are three levels of faith recognizable in the Scripture. The first is what is commonly called mental assent; an example would be John 2: 23-25, these are said to have believed in His name but Jesus did not entrust Himself to them. Another would be John 12: 42, 43: they believed in Him, but the were not confessing (there is the lack of the work of faith) Him for fear of being put out of the synagogue. What was their problem? The loved the approval of men more than the approval of God. These people believed with their minds but there was little if any personal involvement of the heart.

    The second is even more nebulous but can be seen in the lives of those who were being converted. For example Saul or Paul of Tarsus. IMO he surely believed when our Lord appeared to him (Acts 9); he prayed and fasted for three days but clearly was not saved as he was still in his sin (Acts 22: 16) when Ananias instructed him to arise and be baptized and wash away you sin, calling on the name of the Lord. IMO Paul's spiritual status during those three days was equivalent to that of John 1: 12, 13. He believed and received Jesus as the Christ and the Son of God but he was not saved until his faith which was mingled with love led him to be baptized. In my mind he was begotten by God and given the right to become a child of God. Or consider Acts 2: 37, these people believed as they were pierced to the heart when they heard the message. They had received Jesus as the Son of God and were begotten by God and were given the right to become children of God. In the very next verse (v 38). they are told what to do, repent and be baptized, and promised the gift of the Holy Spirit. This is the second level of faith.

    When our faith and love leads us to obey, we come to the third level of faith, we are cleansed of our sin when by faith we are washed in water at baptism (Eph. 5: 26); we are sprinkled with the blood of Christ when by faith we obey our Lord (1 Peter 1: 1,2); we become children of God when by faith we repent and are baptized into Christ. (Gal. 3: 26, 27); we are saved when we believe and are baptized. (Mark 16: 16). Abraham lived by faith, yet when God tested his faith, his faith was authenticated by his obedience. (Gen. 22: 12, 18) This, IMO, is the third level of faith; it is a completed, perfected faith. What is the measure of these works of faith (1 Thess. 1: 3) We know that under the law faultless obedience was required; but under grace we find a different measure; first they must be of faith in God not faith in ourselves; second they must be motivated by love for God; and third they are performed to complete our faith, not to merit righteousness. God bless.

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    Mailmandan writes: thread- the way of salvation, post#3
    Repentance actually precedes saving faith in Christ which precedes water baptism (Acts 20:21; 10:43-47; 11:17,18).
    Response:
    Acts 20: 21 is a specious example in which there are two different groups of people, Jews and Greeks, with different beliefs about God and Jesus, speaking about two different virtues, and you are using this to reach some supposed conclusion about the order of repentance and faith. 21 solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. (Acts 20: 21) Why don’t you go to Acts 2 where repentance in the name Christ was first preached to one group of people. Repentance followed faith.
    Are we cleansed by faith at the moment of receiving faith?
    “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.” (Acts 10: 43) NASB
    And He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. (Acts 15: 9) NASB
    Is faith the cleansing agent? No, The blood of Christ is the agent that cleanses us from our sins. We have access to the blood of Christ through faith not through works of the Law or works of righteousness. (Heb. 9: 13,14; Rev 1: 5; 1 Peter 1: 18, 19)

    Is there any Scripture that asserts that the forgiveness of sin is through faith alone? No, none.

    Are there factors other than faith that contribute to the forgiveness of sin? In this section are several verses which list factors which are said to cleanse, purify, wash, blot out, forgive sin and redeem in addition to faith.
    · And that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. (Luke 24: 47)
    · Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2: 38)
    · Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. (Acts 3: 19)
    · Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name. (Acts 22: 16)
    · knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. (Rom 6: 6, 7)
    · But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. (Rom 6: 17, 18)
    · Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (1 Cor. 6: 11)
    · In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace. (Eph. 1: 7) We are baptized into Christ.
    · so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, (Eph. 5: 26)
    · In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace. (Col. 1: 14) We are baptized into Christ
    · let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. (Heb. 10: 22)
    · Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. (1 Peter 1: 1, 2)
    · Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart. (1 Peter 1: 22)
    · And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. (1 John 3: 3)
    · but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. (1 John 1: 7)
    · I said to him, “My Lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 7: 14)

    What do we conclude about the claim that we are cleansed by faith at the first moment of faith? It appears to be pure chicanery.
    To me your idea that repentance precedes faith is unconvincing considering the following:
    (1) we are led to repentance by the goodness and kindness of God. (Rom. 2: 4) How could this be true is we don’t believe in God, a casual faith is highly unlikely to produce repentance.
    (2) Godly sorrow leads to repentance. How can we have a godly sorrow if we don’t believe?
    (3) faith not repentance is our introduction to the grace of God. (Rom. 5: 2)
    (4) the examples you have given showing repentance precedes faith are very questionable.
    (5) Act 2 does not support your hypothesis.
    God bless.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: the way of salvation

    Were Cornelius and his people saved in a way different from Acts 2?

    Admittedly the order of events in the first gentile conversion was changed by God to accomplish His purpose in regards to gentiles; the events themselves were the same that all believers performed. They heard the message, believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit including the baptism with the Spirit, repented and were baptized in the name of Christ in water

    14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’ (Acts 11: 14)

    11 But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.” (Acts 15: 11)

    Peter ordered Cornelius and his people to be baptized in water in the name of Christ. When they arose from the water they had completed all that was required of any convert. Later, when Peter was recounting these events he said, we are all saved in the same way. (Acts 15: 11)
    God bless.
    zone likes this.

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    Default Re: the way of salvation

    Those who by faith obey our Lord, are sprinkled with the blood of Christ and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and are baptized with the Spirit. (1 Pet. 1: 2; Acts 2: 38, 39; 5: 32; 10: 45; 11: 16)
    Mailmandan writes: thread- the way of salvation, post #3
    “We are saved at the moment that we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ for salvation BEFORE we accomplish any further acts of obedience/works (Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..). You are confusing the act of obedience by which we choose to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16) with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow saving faith in Christ. The end result is salvation by works.”

    Response:
    When we first believe with all our heart and mind, we are begotten by God through the exercise of His will. (John 1: 12, 13) We are not saved at that moment, but we are given the right to become children of God through faith and baptism in the name of Christ. (Gal. 3: 26, 27) He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved. (Mark 16: 16)

    We do not obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Coming to faith is a work of God. (John 6: 29) God opens the heart of those who deny and humble themselves. (Acts 16: 14) Faith is received as a gift from God (Rom. 12: 3), by the grace of God (Acts 18: 27) through hearing the word (Rom. 10: 17) We believe the gospel when we assent to the truth that Jesus died for our sins, was buried and arose from the dead on the third day. (1 Cor. 15: 1-4) We obey the gospel (2 Thess. 1: 8) in baptism when we die with our Lord, are buried with Him so that we might arise with Him in the newness of life. (Rom. 6: 3-6) We are freed from our sins upon obeying the gospel. (Rom. 6: 7, 17, 18) The relationship between faith and obedience is asymmetrical: we obey God when we believe but we don’t believe by obeying. IMO you have unfortunately been misled and are unabashedly misleading others. Paradoxically, salvation by grace through faith includes works of faith. May God grant us all an understanding heart.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Johnny_B's Avatar
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    Default Re: the way of salvation

    John 3:3 "Jesus answered him,“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

    Until the Spirit gives you life, a person can not even see the kingdom of heaven or the need to repent or be baptized or have faith. Grace is God's unmerited favor, it come before faith, faith is a result of grace. Ephesians 2:8-9"by grave you are saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one can boast."


    You need to read 2 Peter 3:8-9 in context. "
    But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

    The text is being written to the beloved, that Peter addresses as, us, like he did in 1:3-4, "any" and "all' is referring back to the beloved, just like "us" is as well.

    Romans 2:4 "Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? The letter to Rome is be written to 1:7 "To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:"

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    Default Re: the way of salvation

    Thread- the way of salvation
    When they come forth from the baptismal experience they are born of water and Spirit. (John 3: 5)
    Mailmandan writes: thread- the way of salvation, post #3
    "False. Water baptism is not the reality, but the PICTURE of the reality. You are drinking the wrong water (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39; 1 Corinthians 12:13)."

    Response:
    Baptism in water in the name of has some symbolism but it is also the reality authorized by our Lord for all nations, for all creation. Some of the realities are: we are baptized into Christ and his death; we die with Him, we are buried with him so that we might arise with Him; we die to the old self in baptism.
    5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3: 5)
    The text has unmodified water. You can’t come forth from water and Spirit unless you have first been immersed in both elements. The one baptism IMO is a baptism in both water and Spirit. In your zeal, you appear to be adding to the text. God bless.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Johnny_B's Avatar
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    Default Re: the way of salvation

    Quote Originally Posted by plaintalk View Post


    5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3: 5)
    The way starts somewhere or somehow and Jesus said you must be born again or you can not see the kingdom of God. Being born again is before water and Spirit, without being born again you don't know what the water means or what the Spirit is, beside the Spirit does what He want.

    John 3:7-8 "Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do notknow where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
    Grace777x70 likes this.

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    Default Re: the way of salvation

    Thread- the way of salvation
    The third requirement of discipleship is to follow Him by observing all things He commanded. (Matt. 16: 24)
    Mailmandan writes: thread- the way of salvation, post #3
    “This is what we are saved FOR and NOT BY (Ephesians 2:10).”
    Response:
    Who will render to every man according to their deeds: to those who by perseverance in doing good, seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil. Of the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to every man who does good, to the Jew first and also the Greek. (Rom. 2: 6- 10)
    It is true that the believer passes from death to life at some point in this life, but it is also true that salvation is an ongoing process in life and that deeds we do, contribute to our final destiny in that they also perfect our faith. God bless.

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