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Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"
You do realize that you have told a truth, but got it BACKWARDS RIGHT ? The truth is the POST-TRIBERS have no leg to stand on, they say the Rapture is AFTER THE TRIBULATION, and we know Israel is in the Wilderness 1260 days and the BEAST rules over Jerusalem for 1260 Days.
So Jesus in Matthew 21-31 was telling the Jews who did not believe in him at the Rapture, where he will be coming from (the Eastern Skies), because Israel turns to God just before the Abomination of Desolation, he tells them do not fall for the tricks, do not go to the DESERT nor the SECRET CHAMBERS, (they ant to kill you) for I will come in the Eastern Sky, after the Tribulation. One Caveat is he comes with the Church.
The RAPTURE........Is not during the 70th week. It happens and the 70th Week begins. Hence Matthew 32-44 is about the Rapture, Two women is in the field, One woman is left and one is taken. This is the UNKNOWN HOUR of the Rapture.
You got it all backwards man.
You do realize that you have told a truth, but got it BACKWARDS RIGHT ? The truth is the POST-TRIBERS have no leg to stand on, they say the Rapture is AFTER THE TRIBULATION, and we know Israel is in the Wilderness 1260 days and the BEAST rules over Jerusalem for 1260 Days.
So Jesus in Matthew 21-31 was telling the Jews who did not believe in him at the Rapture, where he will be coming from (the Eastern Skies), because Israel turns to God just before the Abomination of Desolation, he tells them do not fall for the tricks, do not go to the DESERT nor the SECRET CHAMBERS, (they ant to kill you) for I will come in the Eastern Sky, after the Tribulation. One Caveat is he comes with the Church.
The RAPTURE........Is not during the 70th week. It happens and the 70th Week begins. Hence Matthew 32-44 is about the Rapture, Two women is in the field, One woman is left and one is taken. This is the UNKNOWN HOUR of the Rapture.
You got it all backwards man.
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"
Actually you are closer than you think E.G.......There has been more said about the second coming of Jesus Christ than all of that written about Jesus while he was here on earth. The Bible tells us almost exactly when Jesus will return on his White Horse follow by his Army (the church).
What it does not tell us is the day and time HE will return in the "AIR" (not earth but 1st heaven) to collect his Bride (the Church).
There are millions of Ammilennialist vs Pretribers simply for the fact that Denominations lead people away for various reasons.
Thank you for letting me make these statements.
Actually you are closer than you think E.G.......There has been more said about the second coming of Jesus Christ than all of that written about Jesus while he was here on earth. The Bible tells us almost exactly when Jesus will return on his White Horse follow by his Army (the church).
What it does not tell us is the day and time HE will return in the "AIR" (not earth but 1st heaven) to collect his Bride (the Church).
There are millions of Ammilennialist vs Pretribers simply for the fact that Denominations lead people away for various reasons.
Thank you for letting me make these statements.
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"
don't really know how to take that about the disciples????????INTIMATE???////
They (disciples) died. They are in Heaven until the Rapture raises their bodies to connect with their souls prior to the "catching-up" of those still alive.
Here the Harpozo results will be two Births and no death of those still alive.
vs
two Births and one Death (Tribulation saints)
or
one Birth and two Deaths (final Judgement by God , the Father Himself.)
don't really know how to take that about the disciples????????INTIMATE???////
They (disciples) died. They are in Heaven until the Rapture raises their bodies to connect with their souls prior to the "catching-up" of those still alive.
Here the Harpozo results will be two Births and no death of those still alive.
vs
two Births and one Death (Tribulation saints)
or
one Birth and two Deaths (final Judgement by God , the Father Himself.)
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"
I believe in the what the vast majority of the Church believed and still do for over two thousand years. That is that there is only one second coming and that the rapture and resurrection of the dead happens at that time. We are gathered together and meet the Lord in the air and accompany him on his return to earth. His coming will occur at the end of the Jewish New Year known as the feast of Trumpets. This is followed by Yom Kippur which concerned with sin and judgement and lastly Tabernacles that pre figure the Millennium.
The story of Joshua and the fall of Jericho pre figures the second coming and judgement. In the story seven trumpets are blown. Joshua represents Christ, Rehab the Church and Jericho the world system. Reheb is saved from the destruction of the City.
The story of the three who are put into the fiery furnace heated seven times hotter is also a pre figure of the second coming. Nebuchadnezzar represents the Anti Christ the three represent the Church in the furnace of tribulation but unharmed. Their release represents the rapture.
I believe in the what the vast majority of the Church believed and still do for over two thousand years. That is that there is only one second coming and that the rapture and resurrection of the dead happens at that time. We are gathered together and meet the Lord in the air and accompany him on his return to earth. His coming will occur at the end of the Jewish New Year known as the feast of Trumpets. This is followed by Yom Kippur which concerned with sin and judgement and lastly Tabernacles that pre figure the Millennium.
The story of Joshua and the fall of Jericho pre figures the second coming and judgement. In the story seven trumpets are blown. Joshua represents Christ, Rehab the Church and Jericho the world system. Reheb is saved from the destruction of the City.
The story of the three who are put into the fiery furnace heated seven times hotter is also a pre figure of the second coming. Nebuchadnezzar represents the Anti Christ the three represent the Church in the furnace of tribulation but unharmed. Their release represents the rapture.
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Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"
Hmm,Or what if the timing of most begins from an incorrect point. If Rome was the fourth beast and it is written that they would be in bondage through 4 beast then Babylon they were in bondage to,then Persia,and then Greece all held them in bondage for the allocated years but when it came down to the forth beast,Rome,when it's sixth head was present the Jews decided enough is enough and revolted before they had finished the punishment.
I think they should have listened to the apostles and honoured the nation over them like it says in Romans 13:1-10... or Hebrews 13:17 or 1 Peter 2. Why though? If it was the end of the 70 weeks then it was over right? On the other hand if the apostles thought that the entire time of that gentile nations rule over them was not yet finished then it is proper to still view the forth beast as still over them and say to honour them as if appointed by God. And is also why the Jews in the siege nor the Christians had the mark it had not yet come.
Hmm,Or what if the timing of most begins from an incorrect point. If Rome was the fourth beast and it is written that they would be in bondage through 4 beast then Babylon they were in bondage to,then Persia,and then Greece all held them in bondage for the allocated years but when it came down to the forth beast,Rome,when it's sixth head was present the Jews decided enough is enough and revolted before they had finished the punishment.
I think they should have listened to the apostles and honoured the nation over them like it says in Romans 13:1-10... or Hebrews 13:17 or 1 Peter 2. Why though? If it was the end of the 70 weeks then it was over right? On the other hand if the apostles thought that the entire time of that gentile nations rule over them was not yet finished then it is proper to still view the forth beast as still over them and say to honour them as if appointed by God. And is also why the Jews in the siege nor the Christians had the mark it had not yet come.
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"
Brothers and Sistets,
This idea of I hope to avoid tribulation, tribulation the the book of Mathew says we will see. Tribulation that over the centuries from the beginnng of the church true faith believers have gone through, from Jews first to Rome persecution,the inquisition, and many others. Even for reading the Bible! Why is it we brothers and sisters look at the clouds in the distance coming toward us quickly and know rain approaches but yet we say it will be sunny today? Until the rain falls directly on their own head and house? Until the rain falls and the ark door is closed? Until we recognize in the past 10 years Christians around the world have been and are being murdered and tried for their belief, testimonies and faith in Christ? All you have to do it look up, just because the rain hasn't hit you directly doesn't mean the storm isn't here.. ask those in China, in Iraq, in Syria, North Korea in different areas of Asia and Asia Minor the Middle East . If tribulation has not come. Or we can close our eyes once the rain hits us on the head directly and we become soaked and say, what a beautiful sunny day! But while your eyes are closed the lightning will strike, then the storm in full fury will be upon us. If they are believers in Christ and part of the same body and we t is documented Christian persecution at an all time high, why do we think tribulation has not already begun? Are they not being beaten, beheaded and shot. Even in free America by the use of laws we are being persecuted. Based on the definition of tribulation, I don't k ow what else we need to see in the sky to say it's raining...
Love to you brother and sisters
The sky is red, the sky is dark, what color do you see? Open your eyes and see...
Brothers and Sistets,
This idea of I hope to avoid tribulation, tribulation the the book of Mathew says we will see. Tribulation that over the centuries from the beginnng of the church true faith believers have gone through, from Jews first to Rome persecution,the inquisition, and many others. Even for reading the Bible! Why is it we brothers and sisters look at the clouds in the distance coming toward us quickly and know rain approaches but yet we say it will be sunny today? Until the rain falls directly on their own head and house? Until the rain falls and the ark door is closed? Until we recognize in the past 10 years Christians around the world have been and are being murdered and tried for their belief, testimonies and faith in Christ? All you have to do it look up, just because the rain hasn't hit you directly doesn't mean the storm isn't here.. ask those in China, in Iraq, in Syria, North Korea in different areas of Asia and Asia Minor the Middle East . If tribulation has not come. Or we can close our eyes once the rain hits us on the head directly and we become soaked and say, what a beautiful sunny day! But while your eyes are closed the lightning will strike, then the storm in full fury will be upon us. If they are believers in Christ and part of the same body and we t is documented Christian persecution at an all time high, why do we think tribulation has not already begun? Are they not being beaten, beheaded and shot. Even in free America by the use of laws we are being persecuted. Based on the definition of tribulation, I don't k ow what else we need to see in the sky to say it's raining...
Love to you brother and sisters
The sky is red, the sky is dark, what color do you see? Open your eyes and see...
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"
Hi dc..... It seems everyone is setback because they 'know not the day or the hour of the Rapture'
Yet, they do not know the Day or the Hour of their Death!
If one is prepared to walk with God in Death then they are prepared to be caught-up by Jesus Christ during the Rapture!
Either results in a life in Heaven. The Key here is that they are waiting and watching for the Rapture to happen.
However, If they do not watch (simply because he told us to watch for him) for Jesus Christ, then when the Rapture gets here before old-man Death does, they may be LEFT BEHIND!
Luke 21:31..."31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand."
To be LEFT BEHIND means there are only two ways LEFT to get to Heaven:
1. is by Martyrdom; (have your head cut of or just the ordinary type of Death by (you fill-in))
2.Living though the next (xxx) number of years that are prior to Daniel's 7 years of tribulations PLUS having to live through the tribulations (God's Wrath)as well.
It is a choice each of us gets to make. As many argue, there is no Rapture.
(That opinion is why the city of Jerusalem and the temple were torn down. The majority of people including the Pharisees of Jerusalem did not know the Day of His entry into the City. Yet, 300+ years earlier, they were told the exact day He would appear.) they were not Watching and today (2000yrs later) they still are a lost people (biblically)
Hi dc..... It seems everyone is setback because they 'know not the day or the hour of the Rapture'
Yet, they do not know the Day or the Hour of their Death!
If one is prepared to walk with God in Death then they are prepared to be caught-up by Jesus Christ during the Rapture!
Either results in a life in Heaven. The Key here is that they are waiting and watching for the Rapture to happen.
However, If they do not watch (simply because he told us to watch for him) for Jesus Christ, then when the Rapture gets here before old-man Death does, they may be LEFT BEHIND!
Luke 21:31..."31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand."
To be LEFT BEHIND means there are only two ways LEFT to get to Heaven:
1. is by Martyrdom; (have your head cut of or just the ordinary type of Death by (you fill-in))
2.Living though the next (xxx) number of years that are prior to Daniel's 7 years of tribulations PLUS having to live through the tribulations (God's Wrath)as well.
It is a choice each of us gets to make. As many argue, there is no Rapture.
(That opinion is why the city of Jerusalem and the temple were torn down. The majority of people including the Pharisees of Jerusalem did not know the Day of His entry into the City. Yet, 300+ years earlier, they were told the exact day He would appear.) they were not Watching and today (2000yrs later) they still are a lost people (biblically)
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"
****The Great Tribulation is not a time of persecution for the Church----the Church is not mentioned in the Tribulation in the Book of Revelation----The purpose of the Tribulation is Judgment upon the wicked----The Great Winepress of the Wrath of God (Revelation 14:20)-----it also the Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jews--144,000---12,000 from each of the 12 tribes) (Jeremiah 30:7)----there has always been persecution of Christians---the Rapture is not to escape persecution----God has not appointed us to Wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9)----the Tribulation is a time of God's Wrath upon the wicked----those who did not love the truth before the Rapture will be deceived during the Tribulation (2 Thessalonians 2:10)---we are Raptured because the Church will fulfill its mission to bring in the Harvest...
****The Great Tribulation is not a time of persecution for the Church----the Church is not mentioned in the Tribulation in the Book of Revelation----The purpose of the Tribulation is Judgment upon the wicked----The Great Winepress of the Wrath of God (Revelation 14:20)-----it also the Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jews--144,000---12,000 from each of the 12 tribes) (Jeremiah 30:7)----there has always been persecution of Christians---the Rapture is not to escape persecution----God has not appointed us to Wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9)----the Tribulation is a time of God's Wrath upon the wicked----those who did not love the truth before the Rapture will be deceived during the Tribulation (2 Thessalonians 2:10)---we are Raptured because the Church will fulfill its mission to bring in the Harvest...
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"
****if they happen at the same time---the Rapture and the 2nd Coming then we do know the day-----once the Abomination of Desolation takes place ---then the Anti-christ has 1260 days till Christ returns and destroys him---this is not a watching and being ready so to speak----He's coming like a thief---unexpectedly when we think not...(Rapture)...
****if they happen at the same time---the Rapture and the 2nd Coming then we do know the day-----once the Abomination of Desolation takes place ---then the Anti-christ has 1260 days till Christ returns and destroys him---this is not a watching and being ready so to speak----He's coming like a thief---unexpectedly when we think not...(Rapture)...
R
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"
No one knows the day or hour is a reference that has nothing to do with the body of Christ nor the rapture of them. The body of Christ was not made nor revealed until given to the apostle Paul. Read Romans 16.25, Eph 3.3-7, Col 1.25-26, 1 Cor 2.6-8, Eph 3.9-10, Titus 1.2
The people you are referencing are the tribulation saints. Completely separate agency than the body of Christ. Also, in the tribulation, the days will be shorted less no flesh would be saved. No one knows the amount the days will be shortened. So in those days, the tribulation, no one will know what day or hour.
No one knows the day or hour is a reference that has nothing to do with the body of Christ nor the rapture of them. The body of Christ was not made nor revealed until given to the apostle Paul. Read Romans 16.25, Eph 3.3-7, Col 1.25-26, 1 Cor 2.6-8, Eph 3.9-10, Titus 1.2
The people you are referencing are the tribulation saints. Completely separate agency than the body of Christ. Also, in the tribulation, the days will be shorted less no flesh would be saved. No one knows the amount the days will be shortened. So in those days, the tribulation, no one will know what day or hour.
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"
Amen to that 88! In addition to that, if the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age were the same event, then it would put the living church through all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which is the wrath of God and which we are not appointed to suffer.
Amen to that 88! In addition to that, if the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age were the same event, then it would put the living church through all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which is the wrath of God and which we are not appointed to suffer.
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the Sun will be darkened and the Moon will not give its light and the Stars will fall from Heaven and the powers of the heavens will be be shaken then will appear the sign of the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory and he will send out his Angels and gather the elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other
Matthew24:29-31 RSV
The rapture happens after the tribulation. Jesus couldn't have put it more clearly
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him we beg you brethren not to be quickly shaken in mind or exited either by Spirit or word or by letter purporting to be from us to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed the son of perdition.....
Thessalonians 2:1-3
I wonder how many present Pre Tribbers will be deceived during the Tribulation?
I tell you in that night there will be two in one bed one will be taken and one left. There will be two women grinding together one will be taken and one left. And they said to him Where Lord? He said to them Where the body is the there the Eagles will be gathered together.
Luke 17:34-37 RSV
Then I saw an Angel standing in the Sun and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly in mid heaven Come gather for the great supper of God to eat the flesh of Kings the flesh of horses and their riders and the flesh of all men both free and slave both small and great. And I saw the beast and the Kings of the Earth with their armies gathered to make war against him that sits upon the horse and against his army
Rev 19:17-19 RSV
Its not the righteous that are taken but the wicked
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the Sun will be darkened and the Moon will not give its light and the Stars will fall from Heaven and the powers of the heavens will be be shaken then will appear the sign of the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory and he will send out his Angels and gather the elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other
Matthew24:29-31 RSV
The rapture happens after the tribulation. Jesus couldn't have put it more clearly
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him we beg you brethren not to be quickly shaken in mind or exited either by Spirit or word or by letter purporting to be from us to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed the son of perdition.....
Thessalonians 2:1-3
I wonder how many present Pre Tribbers will be deceived during the Tribulation?
I tell you in that night there will be two in one bed one will be taken and one left. There will be two women grinding together one will be taken and one left. And they said to him Where Lord? He said to them Where the body is the there the Eagles will be gathered together.
Luke 17:34-37 RSV
Then I saw an Angel standing in the Sun and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly in mid heaven Come gather for the great supper of God to eat the flesh of Kings the flesh of horses and their riders and the flesh of all men both free and slave both small and great. And I saw the beast and the Kings of the Earth with their armies gathered to make war against him that sits upon the horse and against his army
Rev 19:17-19 RSV
Its not the righteous that are taken but the wicked
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"
Amen on the Joshua reference.....it follows the order of the seals, trumpets exactly.....even leaves out the hidden thunders and the verbiage is the same used in the resurrection/change....
A massive blow of the last TRUMP, the SHOUT, ASCENSION and Victory........
seen this truth about 10 plus years ago.........
Amen on the Joshua reference.....it follows the order of the seals, trumpets exactly.....even leaves out the hidden thunders and the verbiage is the same used in the resurrection/change....
A massive blow of the last TRUMP, the SHOUT, ASCENSION and Victory........
seen this truth about 10 plus years ago.........
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"
Jesus said in Matthew 21:24 that it would be trodden until a certain time. In Romans 11;25 Paul mentions the same thing. In Daniel 12 is the same question "how long and what would be the end?" In Revelation 11:2 is the same time limit.
So why did Jesus make the comment as if the times of the gentiles were not finished,over with (meaning that the length of time of Rome's rule from Daniel) if the 70 weeks were over? Rome continued to rule after ad70 all the way to 476ad and the after that the 7th head,the eight and divided into to 10 horns ect. and Daniel was curious in chapter 12 about the length of time being spoken of (that’s what none can understand,how long does the 4th beast rule?". If we knew how long the 4th beast would rule then we would know when Jesus would return but notice the language used each time the term "times of the gentiles are full",each time it is used as if it is not over,fulfilled ect.
Jesus said in Matthew 21:24 that it would be trodden until a certain time. In Romans 11;25 Paul mentions the same thing. In Daniel 12 is the same question "how long and what would be the end?" In Revelation 11:2 is the same time limit.
So why did Jesus make the comment as if the times of the gentiles were not finished,over with (meaning that the length of time of Rome's rule from Daniel) if the 70 weeks were over? Rome continued to rule after ad70 all the way to 476ad and the after that the 7th head,the eight and divided into to 10 horns ect. and Daniel was curious in chapter 12 about the length of time being spoken of (that’s what none can understand,how long does the 4th beast rule?". If we knew how long the 4th beast would rule then we would know when Jesus would return but notice the language used each time the term "times of the gentiles are full",each time it is used as if it is not over,fulfilled ect.
Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"
We don't because the start of the Jewish New Year can be anytime within forty eight hours when the New Moon is first sighted. The day and the hour was a saying at the time of Jesus regarding this Festival. It was when the New Moon was seen above the Temple that the Trumpet Festival started. Christ returns at the last Trumpet. Apart from this Paul said that when Jesus came as a thief in the night sudden destruction would befall unbelievers while they are saying Peace and safety and they would not escape. It refers to the world at large who will see the Antichrist as a man of peace and a Messiah not believers who are supposed to be ready for his arrival as Children of the day not night. So the idea of a silent return to rapture believers before the tribulation does not fit the idea of a sudden destruction. Also Christ said in Matt 24 that the elect would be gathered after the Tribulation not before.
We don't because the start of the Jewish New Year can be anytime within forty eight hours when the New Moon is first sighted. The day and the hour was a saying at the time of Jesus regarding this Festival. It was when the New Moon was seen above the Temple that the Trumpet Festival started. Christ returns at the last Trumpet. Apart from this Paul said that when Jesus came as a thief in the night sudden destruction would befall unbelievers while they are saying Peace and safety and they would not escape. It refers to the world at large who will see the Antichrist as a man of peace and a Messiah not believers who are supposed to be ready for his arrival as Children of the day not night. So the idea of a silent return to rapture believers before the tribulation does not fit the idea of a sudden destruction. Also Christ said in Matt 24 that the elect would be gathered after the Tribulation not before.
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