PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

[garee]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

How is it that you cannot conceive of other programs going on and other groups existing within end-time events other than the church?

There will be no other group after the last day.

On the last, day judgment day, the day of the seventh trump and the second and final resurrection it is all as one event.

Dispenstaionism theology is not a biblical principle. God works purifying the hearts of men through His living abiding word at all times. He puts no difference between a born again Jew and Gentile in that way

1Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.... every saint

You read Matt.24:30-31 and Matt.13, and you think that it can only be speaking about the church. You pay no attention to the other scriptures and apply them to the end-time scenario.

It is speaking of the Elect, the Church of God, the bride of Christ all others will be judged on the same day and then comes the end of the world. the end of time. The Sun and Moon under the feet of the saints.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

All the tribes as apostles(sent ones) to include those of the Israel who are not all Israel as born again saints.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Do you think that God in his word, is going reiterate all of the other details every time his word refers to end-time events? Do you think that he is going to rehash every detail every time end-time event is mentioned?

He already establishes it will be on the last day. There will be no literal thousand year reign of this corrupted earth and heavens. There is no mention of any activity going on after the last day.

Whenever you read something that is different or read about another group, you need to include them into your end-time scenario in order to come to a proper conclusion.

The last days began when he said it is finished.

For example, in Matt.24, we read nothing about the group of 144,000, which are twelve thousand from each of the twelve tribes of Israel and that because they are only mentioned in the book of Revelation. So, this group becomes another part of the puzzle.

144,000. Twelves thousand to represent the old testament saints in whom the Spirit of Christ dwelt using the word tribes as gates, times twelve thousand a word to represent the unknown (we walk by faith not by sight) apostles as foundation stones together represent all of the elect identified as the bride of Christ the church . She is made up of many lively stones that form the spiritual house of God, the church.

Some would include Jews who have not been converted as if the flesh of a Jew was different then the flesh of a Gentile and God was a respecter of persons . The reformation has come. The use of the flesh of a Jew used as types and shadows to represent the unseen Spirit of God had come to an end. This began the tribulation as men looked to the flesh of others as in who is the greatest.

In Matt.24 we read nothing regarding the two witnesses that will be prophesying in the streets of Jerusalem, but are mentioned in Rev.11 and they must therefore be included as being apart of end-time events.

The two witnesses, the law and the prophets (sola scriptura) will be there to the end. That book of the law the bible will not depart until the new heavens and earth appear. The question is when he does come in Spirit on the last day. Will he find faith?

In Rev.7:9-17, the great tribulation saints are introduced, but are not recorded in Matt.24. This is another group that needs to be included into the end-time events scenario.

Yes the unconverted but they are recorded as being judged on that same last day the day of the last trump .

Likewise, before Paul received the information regarding the mystery of living believers being transformed and caught up when the resurrection takes place, it was previously unknown and needs to be included in the end-time events scenario.

That event will happen on the last day .The saints that remain on earth reigning with the Spirit of Christ indwelling and those who are dead asleep will both hear the call of the second and final resurrection. And in the twinkling of the eye both will receive their new bodies that will house their new spirits and born again soul .

Same thing regarding the church not being appointed to suffer God's wrath. All of these things and more, must be taken into consideration when arriving at an understanding of end-time events.

God's wrath is and has been revealed. His final wrath will come on the last day. Jesus as the son of man in respect to his flesh will not appear again .God is not a man as us and neither is there any daysman (a human as a infallible interpreter) to stand between God and man. The Son of man refused to be called good teacher in that way, informing us God alone is good in respect to that not seen. Many are looking for Him to appear again in flesh as if one demonstration was not enough.

God remains without mother or father beginning of days or end of Spirit life.

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, "yet now henceforth" know we him no more.Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2Co 5:16

The question is why would they desire that he would return in the flesh seeing He is not a man as us?

 

[samuel23]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Hi Dan: Glad that you asked, for years I thought the same way, what does it matter as long as we believe that Jesus will return to gather the church. I WAS WRONG!!! It makes a huge difference because Jesus and Paul taught that the church would be gathered after the tribulation(a time of great persecution against Christians) while what is being taught in most churches today is a false teaching that Jesus will return BEFORE the tribulation. The problem is that when Christians find their selves in the tribulation it will appear to them that Jesus did not keep His word and return pre-trib as they have been told the bible teaches. This could cause a great falling away from the faith and the lose of many souls. It is like this, Satan came to Jesus and offered Him the crown without the cross, and Jesus rejected the offer of Satan. Satan has came to the present day church and offered them the rapture without the tribulation, and the present day church has accepted the offer of Satan.

 

[tanakh]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Hello Tanakh,

How is it that you cannot conceive of other programs going on and other groups existing within end-time events other than the church? You read Matt.24:30-31 and Matt.13, and you think that it can only be speaking about the church. You pay no attention to the other scriptures and apply them to the end-time scenario. Do you think that God in his word, is going reiterate all of the other details every time his word refers to end-time events? Do you think that he is going to rehash every detail every time end-time event is mentioned?

Whenever you read something that is different or read about another group, you need to include them into your end-time scenario in order to come to a proper conclusion.


For example, in Matt.24, we read nothing about the group of 144,000, which are twelve thousand from each of the twelve tribes of Israel and that because they are only mentioned in the book of Revelation. So, this group becomes another part of the puzzle.

In Matt.24 we read nothing regarding the two witnesses that will be prophesying in the streets of Jerusalem, but are mentioned in Rev.11 and they must therefore be included as being apart of end-time events.

In Rev.7:9-17, the great tribulation saints are introduced, but are not recorded in Matt.24. This is another group that needs to be included into the end-time events scenario.

Likewise, before Paul received the information regarding the mystery of living believers being transformed and caught up when the resurrection takes place, it was previously unknown and needs to be included in the end-time events scenario.

Same thing regarding the church not being appointed to suffer God's wrath. All of these things and more, must be taken into consideration when arriving at an understanding of end-time events.

As it is, you and many others have tunnel vision, seeing only the church in everything and not believing or taking into consideration those other groups or the other events associated with end-time events. People read Matt.24:30-31 and they don't take into consideration that this event is when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, which takes place after God's wrath has been completed and therefore the church could not be the group referred to as being gathered in Matt.24:31 and that because the church cannot and will not go through God's wrath. To get around this, people create apologetics relocating, spiritualizing or down-playing God's wrath in order to protect their interpretation.

Matt.24:30-31:

1). Takes place when Jesus returns to end the age
2). Every person on earth will see him
3). His angels gather the weeds first and then the wheat

Question: Can the church be those who are gathered by the angels in Matt.24:31?

Answer 1: No, the church cannot be in view here, because the wrath of God takes place leading up to the end of the age and since the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then it cannot be the church who is being gathered.

Answer 2: Matt.24:31 has the angels gathering the elect from every corner of the earth. At the resurrection and catching away, angels do not gather the church, but are gathered by the Lord and are taken back to the Father's house.

Answer 3: In Matt.24:31, the angels will be gathering the righteous (great tribulation saints) who will have made it through God's wrath in their mortal bodies and who will be those who repopulate the earth during the millennial period. In opposition, the church will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and caught up to heaven.

In addition, Rev.19:14 has the church following the Lord out of heaven on white horses when he returns to end the age and therefore, how can the church be the ones being gathered by the angels if we are seen returning with the Lord?

As an example of taking into consideration all of the details of scripture, let's compare Matt.24 to other scriptures, which is describing the same event:

Matt.24:31 - Records angels arriving with Jesus at the end of the age
Rev.19:11-14 - No angels are mentioned, but only the army of heaven, which is the church

Matt.24:30-31 - Records Jesus arriving on the clouds of heaven
Rev.19:11 - Jesus returns riding on a white horse with no clouds mentioned

Matt.24:30 - When the Lord returns to end the age, every person on earth will see Him.
1 Thes.4:13-17 - When the Lord gathers the church it will be like a thief in the night, unseen, unknown.

Matt.24 - The trumpets and bowl judgments are not mentioned in the Lord's list of events
Rev.6 -19 - Records the God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgements

When we take into consideration all of the scripture, they reveal the whole picture:

If we combine everything, i.e. take all scripture into consideration:

when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, according to Rev.16 it will take place after the 7th bowl has been poured out, which completes God's wrath.

Jesus will be returning with both his angels and the church.

While the church will be following Christ down to the earth to fight against the nations that are gathered against him and his army, the angels will be going throughout the earth gathering the weeds (one taken) where they will bring them back to Armageddon to be killed by that double-edged sword.

After the weeds are gathered, the angels will gather the wheat, which will be those great tribulation saints who will have survived through God's wrath. Consequently, those being gathered cannot be the church because, the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath and Rev.19:14 reveals the church, as his army, following Christ out of heaven already in their immortal and glorified bodies.

I dont have tunnel vision. I compare Scripture with Scripture, I do not use Artistic Licence to make the Bible fit my beliefs. Where for example is any specific mention anywhere of ''Tribulation Saints'' This group has been invented
by Pre Tribbers to justify the Pre Trib Rapture and explain away the huge crowd of people dressed in white that appear in Revelation 7 coming out of the tribulation. If one doesn't believe that the Church goes through the tribulation another explanation needs to be found so this additional group was created.

 

[JaumeJ]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

When we believe Jesus Christ, many questions in this forum become moot.

Let us be not anxious for tomorrow for tomorrow is anxious for itself. Let today's worries suffice therein......amen

 

[tanakh]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Nobody is burned until the GWT JUDGEMENT

Context. That "tares" being burned is after the millennium.

The tares in the Parable have nothing whatsoever to do with the Great White Throne judgement. Its about the second coming and what will happen to the righteous and the wicked left alive at his return.

In the Parable of the Sheep and Goats in Matthew 25:31-45 he uses the same method of contrasting the fate of the righteous with the wicked.

1 He comes in glory with his Angels (verse 31)
2 He separates the Nations as a Shepherd separates Sheep and from the Goats (v 32)
3 He calls the Sheep blessed and they inherit the kingdom (v34)
4 He tells the Goats to Depart from him into the eternal fire (v41)
5 He says the Goats will go away into eternal punishment and the righteous into eternal life (v46)

The millennium starts at Christs return. In the parable the people of the worlds nations that are still alive are judged.

The Tares and the Goats are not the same people as those judged at the great white throne judgement. Those are the
unrighteous dead who were not resurrected at the second coming

Rev 20:4-6

Then I saw the thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgement was committed. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or on their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. Blessed and holy are those who is he who shares in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power but they shall be priests of God and will reign with him a thousand years.

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Dispenstaionism theology is not a biblical principle. God works purifying the hearts of men through His living abiding word at all times. He puts no difference between a born again Jew and Gentile in that way

Garee, one thing I would say...and this is just my two cents but...I wouldn't let this guy drag you into a quagmire if I were you. He wants to drag you deep into the woods so that you can no longer see the forest.

The thread topic here is very, very, very simple: PreTribbers need to falsely claim the "gathering" occurs at the exact completion of 1260 days, even though that is a point-blank contradiction to the text.


The entire text has to do with the "coming of the Son of Man" for the great Gathering. Verse 30 -- "they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds...".

A few verses later -- verse 36: "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah."


PreTribbers ABSOLUTELY MUST believe the "coming of the Son of Man" occurs at the completion of 1260 days...NO MATTER WHAT the text states.

But the Gathering does NOT occur at 1260 days. It occurs, as you and I know from looking at the text...at the time of the cosmic disturbances...which is WELL before the 1260 days have been completed.


In fact, it is these cosmic signs that announce the beginning of God's wrath. This is stated in Rev. 6 AND Joel 2:31:

Joel 2:31 -- The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood BEFORE the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

Rev. 6:12 and 17 -- and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth...for the great day of Their wrath has come...

Matthew 24:29,30 -- Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky...and the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn...

 

[popeye]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Good grief--what a false accuser you are. What are you even talking about? The lured me into discussing so-called "prepping" under false pretenses, claiming he wanted my "advice". When I gave him a brief run-down, you and he immediately engaged in sarcastic back-and-forth chortling. It was ugly, rotten stuff. Now you say I'm being mean - LOL? How so? How, where and when? All along, I've wanted nothing other than to have simple, serious discussion regarding the thread topic. But then, you and a few others here formed a PreTrib beatdown mob and commenced your festivities. Both sad and hilarious.

As I said, you're just a false accuser. And this coming from the most discourteous, unkind, unfriendliest bro on this entire discussion board, as far as I know.

I will file this under "the dynamics of classic denial"

Would be a great example for anyone dealing with such cases as yours.

The professor could say "now watch what happens when he is exposed" lol

 

[popeye]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

The tares in the Parable have nothing whatsoever to do with the Great White Throne judgement. Its about the second coming and what will happen to the righteous and the wicked left alive at his return.

In the Parable of the Sheep and Goats in Matthew 25:31-45 he uses the same method of contrasting the fate of the righteous with the wicked.

1 He comes in glory with his Angels (verse 31)
2 He separates the Nations as a Shepherd separates Sheep and from the Goats (v 32)
3 He calls the Sheep blessed and they inherit the kingdom (v34)
4 He tells the Goats to Depart from him into the eternal fire (v41)
5 He says the Goats will go away into eternal punishment and the righteous into eternal life (v46)

The millennium starts at Christs return. In the parable the people of the worlds nations that are still alive are judged.

The Tares and the Goats are not the same people as those judged at the great white throne judgement. Those are the
unrighteous dead who were not resurrected at the second coming

Rev 20:4-6

Then I saw the thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgement was committed. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or on their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. Blessed and holy are those who is he who shares in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power but they shall be priests of God and will reign with him a thousand years.

I addressed the outcome of the tares,the wicked.
When are the wicked thrown into fire?

You never addressed it.
You did everything but address it
Maybe you did not read the parable?

 

[popeye]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

I dont have tunnel vision. I compare Scripture with Scripture, I do not use Artistic Licence to make the Bible fit my beliefs. Where for example is any specific mention anywhere of ''Tribulation Saints'' This group has been invented
by Pre Tribbers to justify the Pre Trib Rapture and explain away the huge crowd of people dressed in white that appear in Revelation 7 coming out of the tribulation. If one doesn't believe that the Church goes through the tribulation another explanation needs to be found so this additional group was created.

No saints" go through" the 7 year GT.
I agree with you on that dynamic

 

[Locutus]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Joel 2:31 -- The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood BEFORE the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Acts 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Acts 2:19 And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

There are numerous errors in your thinking, the spirit was being poured out in the last days, which would include all the things that Peter quoted.

He did not say that "the wonders in heaven" would be 1900 years and counting before that took place.

Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

All the prophets include Joel having spoken of "these days" when Peter lived.

""no one knows the day or hour" - this was only true during Christ's earthly ministry, to assume that the apostles would not know when the things were to happen is contrary to what he stated what the ministry of the holy spirit would do:

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.


1 Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1 Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Paul is telling that they will know.

 

[popeye]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Hi Dan: Glad that you asked, for years I thought the same way, what does it matter as long as we believe that Jesus will return to gather the church. I WAS WRONG!!! It makes a huge difference because Jesus and Paul taught that the church would be gathered after the tribulation(a time of great persecution against Christians) while what is being taught in most churches today is a false teaching that Jesus will return BEFORE the tribulation. The problem is that when Christians find their selves in the tribulation it will appear to them that Jesus did not keep His word and return pre-trib as they have been told the bible teaches. This could cause a great falling away from the faith and the lose of many souls. It is like this, Satan came to Jesus and offered Him the crown without the cross, and Jesus rejected the offer of Satan. Satan has came to the present day church and offered them the rapture without the tribulation, and the present day church has accepted the offer of Satan.

Teaches it?

None of you have EVER,EVER,produced a single verse pointing to a post trib rapture.

Produce one. If it so correct,produce one.

 

[popeye]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

Garee, one thing I would say...and this is just my two cents but...I wouldn't let this guy drag you into a quagmire if I were you. He wants to drag you deep into the woods so that you can no longer see the forest.

The thread topic here is very, very, very simple: PreTribbers need to falsely claim the "gathering" occurs at the exact completion of 1260 days, even though that is a point-blank contradiction to the text.


The entire text has to do with the "coming of the Son of Man" for the great Gathering. Verse 30 -- "they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds...".

A few verses later -- verse 36: "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah."


PreTribbers ABSOLUTELY MUST believe the "coming of the Son of Man" occurs at the completion of 1260 days...NO MATTER WHAT the text states.

But the Gathering does NOT occur at 1260 days. It occurs, as you and I know from looking at the text...at the time of the cosmic disturbances...which is WELL before the 1260 days have been completed.


In fact, it is these cosmic signs that announce the beginning of God's wrath. This is stated in Rev. 6 AND Joel 2:31:

Joel 2:31 -- The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood BEFORE the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

Rev. 6:12 and 17 -- and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth...for the great day of Their wrath has come...

Matthew 24:29,30 -- Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky...and the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn...

Wasn't it you that told us the dead do not rise at 1 thes 4?

Seems it was you that said that?

 

[tanakh]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

I addressed the outcome of the tares,the wicked.
When are the wicked thrown into fire?

You never addressed it.
You did everything but address it
Maybe you did not read the parable?

I have answered this in a long response to you not once but twice. It appears that one response has disappeared and another has been tampered with. There is nothing in either of them that breached CC rules so I can only conclude that the content was not to someones liking. I wont be putting in another reply.

 

[MattTooFor]

Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"

BUMP -- directed to any and all PreTribbers who wish to weigh in!

You error is that Matt.24:30-31 is not the gathering of the church.

So...if you could have pulled aside Peter, 15 or 20 years after Jesus had told him and the other believers they were to live with the expectation of encountering the Abomination of Desolation, followed by the Great Tribulation, followed by the rapture...what do you think Peter would have answered if you asked him if he still heeded Jesus' words to him from the Olivet Discourse?

"Do you still heed Jesus' words to you from that day?"

Peter: "Why wouldn't I? Did other words come along which contradict what Jesus told me? And why would there be teachings which contradict Jesus' words?"