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Thread: Abraham ate with Jesus.

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    Senior Member OneFaith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Yes, the "Angel of the Lord" in the Old Testament is preincarnated Christ.

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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by StanJ View Post
    Jesus was talking about the actual essence of God in Heaven. Even when Moses saw the burning bush it was the presence of God in a different form and when God actually had to appear in his spiritual form he hid Moses in the cleft of a rock and walk by so Moses didn't see him.
    Notice the occasions you point out what Moses saw was explained. So what in the text brings you to the conclusion that Jesus is speaking of the essence of God vs actually seeing a manifestation of God?

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    Senior Member StanJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluto View Post
    And look at the text/context of Exodus 3:2, "And the angel of the Lord appeared to him/Moses in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked and behold the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed." Now look at vs4, "When the Lord saw that he/Moses aside to look, GOD CALLED TO HIM FROM THE MIDST OF THE BUSH," So who called out to Moses from the midst of the bush stan? Was it the angel of the Lord or was it God the Father?
    Also, who is saying the following at vs6? "He said also, "I am the God of your father; the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." Who is that stand, the angel of the Lord or God the Father? And btw, do you see a "Trinity" in these verses as well stan?
    Then all you're doing is deflecting to other scripture rather than dealing with what was being discussed in Genesis 18. Reiterating what goes on in Exodus 3 to is just that you're not making any points you're not saying anything that is against scripture so I don't really see what point you're trying to make here and again as I said before if you have a point to make then make it stop asking questions. Do you not believe that God is trying in nature? Do you not believe in the trinity? Do you understand what the Shema is?
    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Senior Member StanJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by towerwatchman View Post
    Notice the occasions you point out what Moses saw was explained. So what in the text brings you to the conclusion that Jesus is speaking of the essence of God vs actually seeing a manifestation of God?
    Well read John 1:18 and you tell me who he was speaking of and in what context?
    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Senior Member StanJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by OneFaith View Post
    Yes, the "Angel of the Lord" in the Old Testament is preincarnated Christ.
    The angel of the Lord is God manifest as an angel. Angels do not look like God and God Is not an angel.
    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by towerwatchman View Post
    Abraham ate with Jesus.

    1. According to Jesus no has seen or heard the Father.
    Jn 6:46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
    Jn 5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

    2. God does not share His name. Note Lord translates from YHWH.
    Is 42:8 I am the Lord, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.

    Main argument: Genesis chapter 18 Note vs 1,13,17,22 and 33“Lord” translates from “YHWH”. According to Moses YHWH appeared, ate, drank and conversed with Abraham by the terebinth trees of Mam’re. Who was it? Since reason will not dictate that the immutable essence of the Father be changed into human form, or that Moses would create such a story under the inspiration of God, who else could be described as appearing in human form but Jesus identified as YHWH.
    God appeared to Abraham twice in human form,once as Melchizedek,king of Salem,and priest of the most high God,who was without descent,having not mother or father,no beginning of days,or end of life,and once with 2 of His angels in human form,where He talked to Abraham about him having a child at his old age,and talked to him about Sodom and Gomorrah,where the 2 angels went.

    But these were temporary manifestations,bodies not conceived by a woman,but God created a body out of the dust of the earth to appear before Abraham,and then the body went back to the dust.

    Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,made of a woman,made under the law,and the only begotten Son of God,the only human being to ever be conceived by the Spirit,and a permanent manifestation of God,for the throne in heaven is the throne of God and the Lamb,God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.

    The 2 manifestations of God to Abraham was not Jesus,but God in a temporary manifestation to Abraham.Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,and the first time Jesus was seen on earth,for Jesus did not get His start of being God and human until God gave Him life in the womb of Mary.
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  7. #47
    Senior Member StanJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluto View Post
    Well there is your big problem stan? You deny the Son of God is eternal especially when you say, "Jesus was born God incarnate and as John 1:14 tells us he was incarnated with The Word who IS God." No, Jesus was already God before He was born as a man. And at John 1:1 it says, "The Word/Logos was WITH God, and the Word/Logos was God."

    To be "with" somebody is to be other than yourself. This is why the Trinity teaches there is ONE God who consist of three distinct persons. Not three beings, not three gods and not three separate beings or persons either. Colossians 1:13-16 as well as Hebrews 1:2 shows Jesus Christ preexisted His incarnation as a man. In fact John 1:3 states, ALL things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." Then there is Isaiah 9:6 which shows Jesus Christ existed before He incarnated as a man.

    The Bible teaches that the Father SENT the Son at John 20:21, Galatians 4:4-6, 1 John 4:10 and 1 John 4:14. And look at Micah 5:2, "But as for you, Bethlehem Epherathaah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be the ruler of Israel, HIS GOINGS FORTH ARE FROM LONG AGO, FROM THE DAYS OF ETERNITY."

    Lastly, and of course no one can see Gods essence or nature and that's why it's been explained to you that to see Jesus is to see the essence or the nature of God. What do you think John 10:30 means? You need to study your Bible a lot more stan.
    John 1 does not state that Jesus was The Word, it states that The Word was with God and was God and became flesh and if you don't understand that then I can't help you. Jesus was begotten when he was because by the Holy Spirit as Matthew 1:20 states. What you are doing is insinuating your predispositional bias into the scriptures.

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

    The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Senior Member StanJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Atlanta_GA View Post
    He also walked in the garden.
    If by He you mean God, that's correct.
    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by towerwatchman View Post
    Abraham ate with Jesus.

    1. According to Jesus no has seen or heard the Father.
    Jn 6:46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
    Jn 5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

    2. God does not share His name. Note Lord translates from YHWH.
    Is 42:8 I am the Lord, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.

    Main argument: Genesis chapter 18 Note vs 1,13,17,22 and 33“Lord” translates from “YHWH”. According to Moses YHWH appeared, ate, drank and conversed with Abraham by the terebinth trees of Mam’re. Who was it? Since reason will not dictate that the immutable essence of the Father be changed into human form, or that Moses would create such a story under the inspiration of God, who else could be described as appearing in human form but Jesus identified as YHWH.

    Oh, My goodness..........What Hogwash?
    1 Cor 15:1-4

    Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

    .

  10. #50
    Senior Member StanJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluto View Post
    What do you think John 10:30 means? You need to study your Bible a lot more stan.
    It means exactly what it says God the father and God the son are one because God the word was incarnated as Jesus. As the hypostatic union of God and man, Jesus knew all that God knew. Do you not believe that Jesus was the only begotten son of God? What do you think that means? It's painfully obvious that you were the one that needs to study the Bible as you continue to avoid everything that I point out to you.
    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bladerunner View Post
    Oh, My goodness..........What Hogwash?
    This is actually meant to be a discussion forum and these type of accusations are unproductive to say the least and just build up bad feelings.
    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    The words "good news" are the full translation to English of the word "gospel." You should already know this. from all of your studies.

    Therefore Abraham was given the Good News, Gospel.

    Quote Originally Posted by StanJ View Post
    From Galatians in the New Testament in Modern English.

    What’s more, the Scriptures looked forward to this time when God would make the Gentiles right in his sight because of their faith. God proclaimed this good news to Abraham long ago when he said, “All nations will be blessed through you.”So all who put their faith in Christ share the same blessing Abraham received because of his faith.
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    From the Mouth of our Lord, Jesus Christ, or do you call Him Yeshua?
    Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.


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    Senior Member StanJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaumeJ View Post
    The words "good news" are the full translation to English of the word "gospel." You should already know this. from all of your studies.
    Therefore Abraham was given the Good News, Gospel.
    Gospel is English, but the point is that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not given to Abraham only the good news that was given to him under the Abrahamic Covenant. It was a promise to Abraham and it was fulfilled by Jesus.
    If you want to twist it around to support your produced position that Jesus existed before he actually did then that's your problem but the Bible doesn't teach that.
    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaumeJ View Post
    FromGalatiansintheNewTestament.

    Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
    Quote Originally Posted by JaumeJ View Post
    The words "good news" are the full translation to English of the word "gospel." You should already know this. from all of your studies.

    Therefore Abraham was given the Good News, Gospel.
    It is impossible to discuss anything with someone who has the words in front of him, yet speaks to the contrary.

    Yes, Abraham was given the Gospel.
    notmyown and MadebyHim like this.
    From the Mouth of our Lord, Jesus Christ, or do you call Him Yeshua?
    Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.


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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by StanJ View Post
    Gospel is English, but the point is that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not given to Abraham only the good news that was given to him under the Abrahamic Covenant. It was a promise to Abraham and it was fulfilled by Jesus.
    If you want to twist it around to support your produced position that Jesus existed before he actually did then that's your problem but the Bible doesn't teach that.
    Perhaps the words of Webster will help you to understand it was first used as an English word as borrowed from the late Latin.

    1gospel

    play

    noun gos·pel \ˈgä-spəl\
    Popularity: Top 40% of words










    Definition of gospel

    • 1a often capitalized : the message concerning Christ, the kingdom of God, and salvationb capitalized : one of the first four New Testament books telling of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ; also : a similar apocryphal (see apocrypha 2) bookc : an interpretation of the Christian message the socialgospel
    • 2capitalized : a lection (see lection 1) from one of the New Testament Gospels
    • 3: the message or teachings of a religious teacher
    • 4: something accepted or promoted as infallible (see infallible 1) truth or as a guiding principle or doctrine took her words as gospelspreading the gospel of conservation — R. M. Hodesh
    • 5: gospel music


    gospelly

    play\ˈgä-spə-lē\ adjective

    See gospel defined for English-language learners
    See gospel defined for kids



    Examples of gospel in a sentence

    • a reading from the Gospel of St. John
    • <her private gospel is to do good cheerfully and without any expectation of reward>








    Origin and Etymology of gospel

    Middle English, from Old English gōdspel (translation of Late Latin evangelium), from gōd good + spell tale — more at spell

    First Known Use: before 12th century




    MadebyHim likes this.
    From the Mouth of our Lord, Jesus Christ, or do you call Him Yeshua?
    Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.


  16. #56
    Senior Member StanJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaumeJ View Post
    Perhaps the words of Webster will help you to understand it was first used as an English word as borrowed from the late Latin.

    1gospel

    play

    noun gos·pel \ˈgä-spəl\
    Popularity: Top 40% of words










    Definition of gospel



    • 1a often capitalized : the message concerning Christ, the kingdom of God, and salvationb capitalized : one of the first four New Testament books telling of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ; also : a similar apocryphal (see apocrypha 2) bookc : an interpretation of the Christian message the socialgospel
    • 2capitalized : a lection (see lection 1) from one of the New Testament Gospels
    • 3: the message or teachings of a religious teacher
    • 4: something accepted or promoted as infallible (see infallible 1) truth or as a guiding principle or doctrine took her words as gospelspreading the gospel of conservation — R. M. Hodesh
    • 5: gospel music


    gospelly

    play\ˈgä-spə-lē\ adjective

    See gospel defined for English-language learners
    See gospel defined for kids



    Examples of gospel in a sentence


    • a reading from the Gospel of St. John
    • <her private gospel is to do good cheerfully and without any expectation of reward>



    Origin and Etymology of gospel

    Middle English, from Old English gōdspel (translation of Late Latin evangelium), from gōd good + spell tale — more at spell

    First Known Use: before 12th century



    Sadly you don't appear to know how to use a dictionary.You also don't appear to know how to use a Greek Lexicon to determine that the gospel and good news are two different Greek words.
    I think you should just stick with what the Bible says in; "not striving about words to the subverting of the hearers".
    Hebrew and Greek are much older than Latin or English. There is obviously a linguistic difference between good news and gospel.
    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Senior Member StanJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaumeJ View Post
    It is impossible to discuss anything with someone who has the words in front of him, yet speaks to the contrary.
    Yes, Abraham was given the Gospel.
    No he was given good news not the gospel.
    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

    Once more, giving you th ebenefit etc., Gospel means Good News. And as it is written in the New Testament, pasted above, Abraham received the Gospel or good news which is by the which we are blessed, as foretold Abraham in the same quote. We are blessed in the very same Gospel given to Abraham which makes us blessed in Abraham...
    MadebyHim likes this.
    From the Mouth of our Lord, Jesus Christ, or do you call Him Yeshua?
    Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.


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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by StanJ View Post
    No he was given good news not the gospel.
    Come on stan, must I spoon feed you everything? What is the difference between the "good news" and "gospel?" Maybe the following will help you out.

    "The term gospel is found ninety-nine times in the New American Standard Bible and ninety-two times in the NET Bible. In the Greek New Testament, gospel is the translation of the Greek noun euangelion (occurring 76 times) “good news,” and the verb euangelizo„ (occurring 54 times), meaning “to bring or announce good news.” Both words are derived from the noun angelos, “messenger.” In classical Greek, an euangelos was one who brought a message of victory or other political or personal news that caused joy. In addition, euangelizomai (the middle voice form of the verb) meant “to speak as a messenger of gladness, to proclaim good news.”Further, the noun euangelion became a technical term for the message of victory, though it was also used for a political or private message that brought joy."

    Secondly, Abraham was given the gospel clearly at Galatians 3:8. "And the Scripture, forseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the GOSPEL beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the natuions shall be blessed in you." And guess where this happened in the Old Testament? At Genesis 12, Genesis 17, Genesis 18 as well as at Genesis 22. All chapters I gave you earlier regarding the angel of the Lord. And since you mentioned "Lexicon's" look up Strong's number 4283 to help you learn something.

    IN HIM,
    bluto

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    Senior Member StanJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Abraham ate with Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaumeJ View Post
    Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
    Once more, giving you th ebenefit etc., Gospel means Good News. And as it is written in the New Testament, pasted above, Abraham received the Gospel or good news which is by the which we are blessed, as foretold Abraham in the same quote. We are blessed in the very same Gospel given to Abraham which makes us blessed in Abraham...
    Nope, two different Greek words two different English words two different meanings.
    2 Timothy 2:15 & 2 Timothy 3:16

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