The Rapture

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RedeemedGift

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Revelation 6:16-17 records the words of those on the earth in the midst of the seal judgments:

"calling to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?" (ESV)

The Greek for "has come" is indicative of something that has already arrived, so no doubt the seal judgments are God's wrath.
 

J7

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@Burninglight

You are equating the unveiling of the antichrist with the great tribulation, why?
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Revelation 6:16-17 records the words of those on the earth in the midst of the seal judgments:

"calling to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?" (ESV)

The Greek for "has come" is indicative of something that has already arrived, so no doubt the seal judgments are God's wrath.
It was Gods wrath on Jerusalem.
 
Apr 15, 2017
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The important thing to remember is that the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath, which will be in operation during that last seven years, from the time that the first seal is opened and the Lamb/Christ is the One opening them.
The wrath of God is not in the 7 years period,for God is allowing the world 7 years to have their way,and cause all people that do not love Him to take the mark of the beast,and then He can put an end to this sin business on earth,and if He is allowing the world to have their way,then He will not go against them until the 7 years period is over.

The saints cannot be gathered unto Christ until there is a falling away first,and the man of sin claims to be God.

The tribulation is for the saints,not the world.

The man of sin will establish peace in the Middle East,and all Jews will come out of the nations,and go back to Israel,which God said He will leave none of the Jews in the nations,but bring the whole house of Israel back to their land,and the Gentiles will come together,and say,Peace and safety,and the 7 years period will begin,and peace in the Middle East,and all Jews going back to Israel,will separate the Jews from the Gentiles,and will start to separate the people that love God,from the people that do not love God.

The Jews will rebuild their temple without hassle from the Palestinians.

During the first three and one half years,repentance,and salvation,is still available to the world,so the saints will remain on earth,as witness to the truth.

Unified religious system based on spiritual evolution,and religions not compatible interpreted as such,and the ten horn kingdom,the world split in to ten sections with a leader in each section.

The time they will not endure the truth of the Bible,but according to their own lusts,spiritual evolution through nature,and a hate crime to try to convert someone to their religion,punishable in the international criminal court system,for all are vaild with a core truth,and Christianity will rapidly decline in impacting the world with the truth.

Unified religious systen offends the religion of Islam,the 6th trumpet,for they will say it is an insult to Allah,and do not accept the unified religious system's interpretation of Islam,and are against them trying to stop them from spreading Islam,and Islam and the world clash,and nuclear weapons are used to devastate the Islam nations,which the man of sin will pluck up 3 horns by ther roots.

That war is so terrible that the world is in despair,and lost hope,and they turn to the man of sin for the solution,and do not repent of their sins,and turn to God,but keep trying to achieve peace on earth by their own efforts,so He gives the world the man of sin to deceive all who do not love Him.

The falling away first is complete.

The man of sin steps in to the Jews temple,and claims to be God and their Messiah,and addresses the world that he harnessed the power of nature,and obtained power,and the world says,who is like unto the beast,and who can make war with him,believing he can establish his kingdom,and no foe can stop him,and the deadly wound was healed,and the world had hope for peace on earth.

When the world takes the mark of the beast,repentance,and salvation,is no longer available,and the saints can be gathered unto Christ.

The beast has power to rule for three and one half years,which he can only have this power because God is allowing him to rule,so God will not go against the beast until the three and one half years is over.

The beast makes war against the saints,and prevails against them,and they are given in to his hands for three and one half years,and he shall destroy the mighty and holy people,and when he scatters the power of the saints then the saints that remain on earth shall be gathered unto Christ.

Then the wrath of God is poured upon the world leading up to the battle of Armageddon,when the world attacks Jerusalem,the Jews.

Jesus said the Jews will not see Him again until they say blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord,which during the last three and one half years God turned the nation of Israel to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah by way of 2 witnesses.

The wrath of God is not in the 7 years period,for God is allowing the world 7 years to have their way,so He will not go against them until the 7 years period is over,and the tribulation is for the saints.

There is only 2 resurrections,one after the tribulation,before the millennial reign of Christ,and one after the millennial reign of Christ.

The saints will be on earth when the 7 years period begins.

When the world says Peace and safety,the Gentiles will come together and try to establish peace on earth,but it is not the operation of God,and it will lead to the beast kingdom.When they say Peace and safety it will begin the 7 years period.

Jesus said He will deliver the elect from the temptation that shall come upon the whole world,to try them that dwell upon the earth,and Paul said the saints will not be deceived by that day for they will know is is not of God.

So the saints are on earth when the 7 years begins,and they are the elect,and Jesus delivered them from that temptation,so it is not like the saints in the truth get caught up before the 7 years period,and then some come to the truth later on,and are caught up.

Because the elect are on earth when the 7 years period begins,so there is no resurrection before the 7 years period.

Repentance,and salvation,are available to the world for the first three and one half years,so the saints will remain on earth,so there is no resurrection at that time.

When the world takes the mark of the beast,repentance,and salvation,are no longer available to the world,but God allows the beast to persecute the saints for thr last three and one half years,and then the resurrection.

So the first resurrection does not happen until the 7 years period is over.
 

J7

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Yes I agree but the fig tree in Matthew isn't a new or reborn fig tree, it's the same fig tree that Jesus would eventually curse. In the account in Matthew, the tree has new growth on it but it's not yet time for figs... it's in the spring time which I think is instumental in understanding what "summer is nigh" means.


The fig tree is a fulfilment of the prophecy of Jeremiah of the total destruction of Jerusalem, and also Judea.


Jeremiah 8:13 [FONT=&quot]I will surely consume them, saith the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot]: there shall be no grapes on the vine, nor figs on the fig tree, and the leaf shall fade; and the things that I have given them shall pass away from them.[/FONT]
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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the Scripture doesn't say the armies riding with Jesus' return is the bride of Christ, but if they are, how can you say it isn't the resurrected ones?


Scripture would beg to differ with you. Please consider the following:

""Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and celebrate and give Him the glory. For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear."

"The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean."

So, in Rev.19:6-8, you have the bride/church receiving her fine line, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. Then in Rev.19:14, you have the bride following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses wearing the same fine linen, white and clean.

In addition to the identification of those following Christ out of heaven, you have them identified in Rev.17:14 as the Lord's "called, chosen and faithful followers.

how can you say it isn't the resurrected ones?
I think that you have misunderstood me. I am saying that those following Christ out of heaven are the church who will have previously been resurrected prior to God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

Because to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. This happens in the twinkle of an eye.
The error that you have made above is that you combined two different events. To be absent from the body and present with the Lord, is describing what happens to a believer at the time of death. Their spirit/soul leaves the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. This is not a resurrection, for the resurrection has to do with the body standing up again. Where at the time of death, their spirit is leaving the body.

The reference to the twinkling of an eye, is referring to when the resurrection of the dead and the transformation of the living takes place when the Lord appears to gather the church. The Lord will bring with him all of those spirits who have died in him and they will be reunited with their resurrected bodies. Those still alive in Christ will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and the whole church will go back to the Father's house to those rooms in the Father's house.

We are one body, one church and one baptism there is no such thing as first class and second class Christians. There is nothing in Scripture to proof that. You are either saved and part of the body of Christ or you're not.
Again scripture does not support your claim. There will be multiple groups on the earth during the time off God's wrath that are not the church. The 144,000, the woman Israel and the great tribulation saints. Those who become believers after the church has been gathered are not apart of the church, but are referred to as "the great tribulation saints." From Rev.4 onward believers in Christ are never referred to as the church. And it is not coincidence that the word ekklesia/church is used throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and in those same chapters you will not find the word hagios/saints. Likewise, from Rev.4 onward, you will only see the word hagios/saints and the word ekklesia/church is never used again. This distinction is not a coincidence, but by God's design.

There is no such thing as tribulations saints or we are all tribulation saints.
"Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
I answered, “Sir, you are the one who knows.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

If they have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and they have come out of the great tribulation, then they are saints who come out of the great tribulation.

The very fact that the elder is asking John who they are, tells us that this group is not the church and they are never referred to as such. They belong to Christ, but they are not apart of the church and that because they will have not believed prior to the gathering of the church, but became believers after the church will have been gathered.

The saints are always the church (the Bride of Christ). Your doctrine brings division to the body of Christ. You have no idea what manner of spirit you're sharing with us.
Throughout the NT, the words church and saints are used interchangeably. But here in Revelation, God is making a distinction between the church and those who become believers during the time of God's wrath and the beasts reign. And yes, I do know by what manner sprit I am sharing these truths with you. These are the deeper things of God revealed through the Spirit.

First of all it isn't during the last 7 years but the last 3.5 years (IN the midst of the 7 years)after the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet,
The seven years that is coming, will be in fulfillment of the decreed of seventy sets of seven that God decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem. At the end off 69 seven year periods the Messiah was cut off/Christ crucified. At that time God paused that last seven years and began to build the church, which is still process. Once the church has been completed, then the Lord will descend and gather the church, ending the church period.

Shortly after that, the ruler, that antichrist will establish his seven year covenant with Israel in fulfillment of that last seven year period. God is going pick up right where He left off with Israel and Jerusalem.

During that same seven years, which is the day of the Lord, God is also going to be pouring out his wrath upon the entire, Christ rejecting world, as depicted in Dan.2:31-45 regarding Nebuchadnezzar's statute, which represents all human government. The Rock/Jesus falls on the feet of the statue (seals, trumpets and bowl judgments) smashing it to pieces like chaff on a threshing floor, blown away by the wind without leaving a trace (the end of human government). Then the Rock/Jesus will become a huge mountain/kingdom and fill the whole earth, which represents Christ's millennial kingdom.




 

J7

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Going back to the fig tree, I think PW and KJV mentioned this:

The fig tree starts to sprout and bud around Passover. So Jesus was giving the disciples the heads-up as to the exact moment when the troops of Titus would take siege of Jerusalem, I think.
 
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Burninglight

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Aren't you judging us? Accusing us of "preferring to be in deception", "willfull ignorance", claiming you believe scripture implying that we don't?
I am judging the spirit behind the deception, and those that adhere to it after being shown clear explicit Scripture contrary to what is falsely taught. It is written: "The spiritual man judges all things yet he is not judged of any man." You are singling me out and pointing your finger at me; this I didn't do to you. My comment was general, but you took it personally. That is not my problem. I call out false teaching without discriminating where it comes from. Instead of attacking me personally, defend your false rapture teachings. I strongly suggest you read Matthew 7!!!
It seems like you're the one causing division.
Things are not always the way they seem! It is written: "There is a way that seems right to a man, but that way leads to death." What offends you, helps others see the truth about the end time... This also I cannot help. I just call it the way I see it. IMHO, you prefer to adhere to what cannot be backed up with Scripture.
You should not be so certain you are right that you belittle other Christians for holding other views. Some of us are convinced from scripture you are the one who is wrong.
I can be certain about the Scriptures I quote, but you cannot be certain about your speculations; moreover, no one belittled you, and you don't need to take up an offense for anyone because no names were mentioned nor was any person singled out as being willfully ignorant or preferring deception. Again, stick to the topic, and if you think my view is wrong, prove it with Scripture. It is written: "Great peace have they which love they law and nothing shall offend them" If I get offended, I'd try love God's law more!
Again, this is not a salvation issue. We'll find out who is right soon enough.

But be ready for the pre-trib rapture. :)
I didn't say it was a salvation issue, and no one is judging your salvation. Why should I be ready for a pre-trib rapture? Where did you find that in Scripture? We should live everyday as if it were our last and redeeming the time for the days are evil, but there is nothing to support this warning you give; in fact, the Scripture tells us not to be deceived by such a warning - read 2 Thes. 2 and Matthew 24.
 
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Burninglight

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We're all wrong to varying degrees, none of us have it all figured out. That's why we need to stick to exactly what the bible says. :)
Exactly, but we aren't seeing that.
 
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PW said in a round about way that wheat represents old testament saints, what does barley represent?

And when is barley harvested?
 
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shrume

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I am judging the spirit behind the deception, and those that adhere to it after being shown clear explicit Scripture contrary to what is falsely taught. It is written: "The spiritual man judges all things yet he is not judged of any man." You are singling me out and pointing your finger at me; this I didn't do to you. My comment was general, but you took it personally. That is not my problem. I call out false teaching without discriminating where it comes from. Instead of attacking me personally, defend your false rapture teachings. I strongly suggest you read Matthew 7!!!
Things are not always the way they seem! It is written: "There is a way that seems right to a man, but that way leads to death." What offends you, helps others see the truth about the end time... This also I cannot help. I just call it the way I see it. IMHO, you prefer to adhere to what cannot be backed up with Scripture.
I can be certain about the Scriptures I quote, but you cannot be certain about your speculations; moreover, no one belittled you, and you don't need to take up an offense for anyone because no names were mentioned nor was any person singled out as being willfully ignorant or preferring deception. Again, stick to the topic, and if you think my view is wrong, prove it with Scripture. It is written: "Great peace have they which love they law and nothing shall offend them" If I get offended, I'd try love God's law more!
I didn't say it was a salvation issue, and no one is judging your salvation. Why should I be ready for a pre-trib rapture? Where did you find that in Scripture? We should live everyday as if it were our last and redeeming the time for the days are evil, but there is nothing to support this warning you give; in fact, the Scripture tells us not to be deceived by such a warning - read 2 Thes. 2 and Matthew 24.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/151315-rapture-199.html#post3191053

I'm not going to argue about it.

Peace!
 

RedeemedGift

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You are missing the point by trying to be technical. The point of this thread is about the rapture and that is what I am talking about specifically. But the term rapture or the doctrine around it is not in the Scripture.

It is called "The gathering together unto Him." and the verse you quoted proves that what you call rapture will not happen until certain things take place. Namely a falling away from the faith and the man of sin (Antichrist) is revealed.

That obviously means we can be certain Jesus will not be rapturing the church tonight, but the pretribulation worldview blinds its adherents so they cannot see what is clearly obvious according to Scripture. They would rather adhere to far fetched unscriptural teachings of deception on this matter.
He is expositing the scriptures, which is a technical thing and something mature believers are instructed to do.

Rapture is a word that is derived from Latin, and that is what is found in the Vulgate in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 with the Latin word "rapiemur".

The context of 2 Thessalonnians 2 is that the believers there were troubled that the persecution and trials they were suffering were as a result of being in the Day of the Lord - God's wrath on earth. If Paul taught that they had to go through the tribulation in order to be gathered to Jesus, then what he wrote to them makes absolutely no sense. Would he not write something along the lines of "keep enduring, the gathering is near"? Instead he writes "Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the _____ comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction".

Notice how I omitted a word. There are only two occurrences of the word "apostasia" in the New Testament (the other being in Acts 21:21), and since the King James Version, all English translations have mistranslated it out of its context with words and phrases like "falling away", "apostasy" and even "rebellion". The heavily Calvinistic Geneva Bible translated the word as "departure". Liddell and Scott not only have the meaning as departure, but "disappearance" also, providing the context is correct, in which case 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is more than appropriate for such renderings. The Vulgate has "discessio", which also means departure.

If the context is our physical gathering together to Christ, and through Him being delivered once and for all from this fallen and sinful world, then why would a certain falling away from the faith make any sense in the context? Are we supposed to be looking for signs of Christians simply not believing anymore? The fact is that apostasies have been happening since day 1, and our blessed hope is the appearing of Christ, and we are called to love His appearing through which we will receive a crown. Not everyone will receive this crown, yet if we are supposed to survive in the style of John Rambo through the 7 years of sheer calamity that is the tribulation, what kind of believer would not love His glorious appearance? Paul wanted to comfort the Thessalonians, he's not saying "you're going through an awful time, but don't worry, it's going to get much, much worse if that particular falling away from the faith transpires, and the antichrist comes". It's preposterous.

"The apostasia" is the pre-tribulation rapture, the departure of the church from this world as we are gathered together to Him who prepares a place for us in His Father's house! If you do not believe Jesus could return for you tonight, then you may be one of those people who will not receive the crown of righteousness for those who love His appearing, you may very well be caught off guard entirely and be in a spirit of fear.
 

J7

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PW said in a round about way that wheat represents old testament saints, what does barley represent?

And when is barley harvested?
Barley represents overcomers - I am told...
 

RedeemedGift

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Barley represents overcomers - I am told...
Overcomers of what? The world, or the wrath of God?

1 John 5:4

"For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world - our faith."
 

J7

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Overcomers of what? The world, or the wrath of God?

1 John 5:4

"For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world - our faith."

Amen.

God's Wrath is not for the Church.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
9 [FONT=&quot]For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,[/FONT]
 
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Zechariah 9 proves beyond the shadow of ANY doubt that "The Antichrist" is NOT the rider of the white horse. It proves beyond ANY doubt that Jesus WAS (past tense) riding the horse at his FIRST coming.

It also proves that the white horse is the house of Judah and NOT a 7 year Antichrist peace treaty with Israel.

I proves that the bow is Judah and NOT the Russian and Chinese armies with a host locust with stingers in their tails lol.

All of "The Antichrist" FABLES are disproven and there hasn't been 1 single comment on this.... why?
 
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An ass is not a horse though...
Maybe not the breed of horse that people think it should be but nontheless, an ass is a member of the horse familty.

ass[SUP]1[/SUP]
as/
noun

  • 1.
    a hoofed mammal of the horse family with a braying call, typically smaller than a horse and with longer ears