The Rapture
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B
the Scripture doesn't say the armies riding with Jesus' return is the bride of Christ, but if they are, how can you say it isn't the resurrected ones? Because to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. This happens in the twinkle of an eye. So you don't know that those returning with Christ aren't the ones who were to be resurrected. Besides God dwells in the past, present and future at the same time; so, we cannot fully understand revelation being that we are finite and subject to the restrictions of time, and we won't know until an appointed time by God.
We are one body, one church and one baptism there is no such thing as first class and second class Christians. There is nothing in Scripture to proof that. You are either saved and part of the body of Christ or you're not.
There is no such thing as tribulations saints or we are all tribulation saints. Jesus said "In the world you have tribulation be of good cheer for I have overcome the world." It is also written "Any who live godly in Christ will suffer persecution. "If you don't, you must not be living godly. Jesus said, "After the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened and the moon then look up." You're teaching contrary to Jesus and Paul. Who said " don't be deceived the gathering won't happen until the man of sin is revealed." That means will be around to see the great persecutor, but we won't suffer God's wrath. Why do you teach contrary to this?
The saints are always the church (the Bride of Christ). Your doctrine brings division to the body of Christ. You have no idea what manner of spirit you're sharing with us.
First of all it isn't during the last 7 years but the last 3.5 years (IN the midst of the 7 years)after the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, but that time will be shorten lest no flesh would survive. That is why we don't know the day or hour of His return, but the Scripture is clear, we'll be here for the tribulation and we'll see the antichrist if you don't go and be with the Lord first meaning die before Christ returns.
We are one body, one church and one baptism there is no such thing as first class and second class Christians. There is nothing in Scripture to proof that. You are either saved and part of the body of Christ or you're not.
There is no such thing as tribulations saints or we are all tribulation saints. Jesus said "In the world you have tribulation be of good cheer for I have overcome the world." It is also written "Any who live godly in Christ will suffer persecution. "If you don't, you must not be living godly. Jesus said, "After the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened and the moon then look up." You're teaching contrary to Jesus and Paul. Who said " don't be deceived the gathering won't happen until the man of sin is revealed." That means will be around to see the great persecutor, but we won't suffer God's wrath. Why do you teach contrary to this?
The saints are always the church (the Bride of Christ). Your doctrine brings division to the body of Christ. You have no idea what manner of spirit you're sharing with us.
First of all it isn't during the last 7 years but the last 3.5 years (IN the midst of the 7 years)after the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, but that time will be shorten lest no flesh would survive. That is why we don't know the day or hour of His return, but the Scripture is clear, we'll be here for the tribulation and we'll see the antichrist if you don't go and be with the Lord first meaning die before Christ returns.
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2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
If that is the verse you are trying to quote, you misquoted it. The Day of the Lord is NOT the Last Day, it is the ENTIRE SEVEN YEARS from the time we Leave, till the time we come back with HIM and HE TAKES BACK THE EARTH. It may very well INCLUDE the ENTIRE MILLENIUM PERIOD TOO. We are LIVING IN MAN'S DAY, but there is coming a time when the LORD will be in total control of EVERYTHING HAPPENING on this Earth, and that is why it is call the DAY OF THE LORD. So we may see that New Dictator come to power, or at least running to be the SUPREME RULER over the Revived Roman Empire, however, very shortly after that we will be Called Out to go to the Wedding of the Lamb. Which I firmly believe is the first event in that time Period, called the DAY OF THE LORD.
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The first time He rode in as MESSIAH the PRINCE, who was Cut Off on the Cross. Remember that from Dan. 9:26. We do not have every event that did happen or will happen in the BIBLE, as the last verse in John's Gospel make very clear. I tend to believe the very first event to begin HIS 1000 Year Reign from the Throne of David; will BE HIS CORONATION CEREMONY. It will not surprise me if the Crown turns out to be DAVID's own CROWN, and that DAVID himself, will have the honor of CROWNING JESUS CHRIST.
Revelation 19:11-16 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Then I saw heaven opened, and there was a white horse. Its rider is called Faithful and True, and He judges and makes war in righteousness.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] His eyes were like a fiery flame, and many crowns were on His head. He had a name written that no one knows except Himself.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] He wore a robe stained with blood, and His name is the Word of God.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The armies that were in heaven followed Him on white horses, wearing pure white linen.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] A sharp sword came from His mouth, so that He might strike the nations with it. He will shepherd them with an iron scepter. He will also trample the winepress of the fierce anger of God, the Almighty.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
Revelation 19:11-16 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Then I saw heaven opened, and there was a white horse. Its rider is called Faithful and True, and He judges and makes war in righteousness.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] His eyes were like a fiery flame, and many crowns were on His head. He had a name written that no one knows except Himself.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] He wore a robe stained with blood, and His name is the Word of God.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The armies that were in heaven followed Him on white horses, wearing pure white linen.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] A sharp sword came from His mouth, so that He might strike the nations with it. He will shepherd them with an iron scepter. He will also trample the winepress of the fierce anger of God, the Almighty.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And He has a name written on His robe and on His thigh: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
Why not?
Revelation 5: 13 [FONT="]And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.[/FONT][FONT="]
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Revelation 5: 13 [FONT="]And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.[/FONT][FONT="]
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Zechariah 9:9-10 KJV
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
[10] And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
In Revelation the rider is carrying a bow, in Zechariah we have Jesus cutting off the battle bow from Jerusalem. The battle bow is Judah and the arrows for the bow are Ephraim.
Zechariah 9:13 KJV
When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.
So in Revelation, according to the prophecy in Zechariah, we have the KING Jesus riding the house of Judah carrying a bow (Judah) and arrows (Ephraim) and he's going forth to conquering to conquer sin and death.
Revelation 6:2 KJV
And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
How could any SANE person say that the rider of the first horse in Revelation is the Antichrist?
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
[10] And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
In Revelation the rider is carrying a bow, in Zechariah we have Jesus cutting off the battle bow from Jerusalem. The battle bow is Judah and the arrows for the bow are Ephraim.
Zechariah 9:13 KJV
When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.
So in Revelation, according to the prophecy in Zechariah, we have the KING Jesus riding the house of Judah carrying a bow (Judah) and arrows (Ephraim) and he's going forth to conquering to conquer sin and death.
Revelation 6:2 KJV
And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
How could any SANE person say that the rider of the first horse in Revelation is the Antichrist?
Daniel's 70 weeks were prophesied for Israel, not Christianity (Dan 9:24). The trib is Daniel's 70th week (Dan 9:27).
God has not appointed Christians to wrath (Rom 5:9; 1 Th 1:10; 5:9; ). The last half of the trib will be God's wrath.
The Christian church began suddenly on the day of Pentecost. This administration of grace was part of God's secret (Eph 3:2ff), and was not known about in the OT or the gospels. This administration will end with the pre-trib rapture and then God will resume His plans for Israel: the trib will commence.
In 1 Cor 15:51, Paul told them a secret (KJV mystery). It was not known before. 1 Thes 4:13ff is about the rapture.
At the rapture, we will meet Jesus in the clouds (1 Thes 4:17). At his second coming TO earth, he will return TO earth(Zech 14:4).
In 2 Thes 2, Paul is speaking of the day of the Lord, not the rapture. The reason Paul mentioned it at all is because some at Thessalonica thought they had missed the rapture.
The trib is a judgment against Israel, not the Christian church.
There are several more reasons why I believe in a pre-trib rapture.
Please do not tell me that you have scripture and I don't, because I do. The Preterists have scripture to support their position too, and if you interpret them as they do, their belief is supportable. I do not agree with them, of course, nor do I agree with you.
It will be settled when it happens, which may not be too far off.
God has not appointed Christians to wrath (Rom 5:9; 1 Th 1:10; 5:9; ). The last half of the trib will be God's wrath.
The Christian church began suddenly on the day of Pentecost. This administration of grace was part of God's secret (Eph 3:2ff), and was not known about in the OT or the gospels. This administration will end with the pre-trib rapture and then God will resume His plans for Israel: the trib will commence.
In 1 Cor 15:51, Paul told them a secret (KJV mystery). It was not known before. 1 Thes 4:13ff is about the rapture.
At the rapture, we will meet Jesus in the clouds (1 Thes 4:17). At his second coming TO earth, he will return TO earth(Zech 14:4).
In 2 Thes 2, Paul is speaking of the day of the Lord, not the rapture. The reason Paul mentioned it at all is because some at Thessalonica thought they had missed the rapture.
The trib is a judgment against Israel, not the Christian church.
There are several more reasons why I believe in a pre-trib rapture.
Please do not tell me that you have scripture and I don't, because I do. The Preterists have scripture to support their position too, and if you interpret them as they do, their belief is supportable. I do not agree with them, of course, nor do I agree with you.
It will be settled when it happens, which may not be too far off.
Yes, Christ returned from hell (the grave). But that is not Christ returning to earth as described in Matt 24.
Matt 24:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matt 24:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 10:23 KJV
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
I agree with you to a degree, but not all of Matthew 24 is about his coming back at the end, some of it is about his return from the grave. The discussion around Matthew 10:23 is very similar to Matthew 24 and Matthew 10:23 says that the disciples will not have gone over the cities of Israel UNTIL the son of man be COME. This isn't 2000 years down the road, that was right then.
Also, it is a fact that the disciples hadn't gone to all the cities of Israel at the time Jesus returned from the grave. Do you see my point, all verses about his return are not always 2000 years in the future, some of them are about his return from the grave.... we can't lump them all into one 2nd coming.
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
I agree with you to a degree, but not all of Matthew 24 is about his coming back at the end, some of it is about his return from the grave. The discussion around Matthew 10:23 is very similar to Matthew 24 and Matthew 10:23 says that the disciples will not have gone over the cities of Israel UNTIL the son of man be COME. This isn't 2000 years down the road, that was right then.
Also, it is a fact that the disciples hadn't gone to all the cities of Israel at the time Jesus returned from the grave. Do you see my point, all verses about his return are not always 2000 years in the future, some of them are about his return from the grave.... we can't lump them all into one 2nd coming.
Aren't you judging us? Accusing us of "preferring to be in deception", "willfull ignorance", claiming you believe scripture implying that we don't?
It seems like you're the one causing division.
You should not be so certain you are right that you belittle other Christians for holding other views. Some of us are convinced from scripture you are the one who is wrong.
Again, this is not a salvation issue. We'll find out who is right soon enough.
But be ready for the pre-trib rapture.
It seems like you're the one causing division.
You should not be so certain you are right that you belittle other Christians for holding other views. Some of us are convinced from scripture you are the one who is wrong.
Again, this is not a salvation issue. We'll find out who is right soon enough.
But be ready for the pre-trib rapture.
It has to do with a very simple deception.
The 70th week of Daniel is done and dusted. Once you grasp this, then you cannot turn Matthew 24 into a witches' brew, because the Abomination Of Desolation has clearly been and gone also.
Until this is 70th week misconception is rectified, there will be eternal bickering, because everyone is trying to fit in a 7 year period into their eschatology that simply does not exist there.
The 70th week of Daniel is done and dusted. Once you grasp this, then you cannot turn Matthew 24 into a witches' brew, because the Abomination Of Desolation has clearly been and gone also.
Until this is 70th week misconception is rectified, there will be eternal bickering, because everyone is trying to fit in a 7 year period into their eschatology that simply does not exist there.
B
You are missing the point by trying to be technical. The point of this thread is about the rapture and that is what I am talking about specifically. But the term rapture or the doctrine around it is not in the Scripture.
It is called "The gathering together unto Him." and the verse you quoted proves that what you call rapture will not happen until certain things take place. Namely a falling away from the faith and the man of sin (Antichrist) is revealed.
That obviously means we can be certain Jesus will not be rapturing the church tonight, but the pretribulation worldview blinds its adherents so they cannot see what is clearly obvious according to Scripture. They would rather adhere to far fetched unscriptural teachings of deception on this matter.
It is called "The gathering together unto Him." and the verse you quoted proves that what you call rapture will not happen until certain things take place. Namely a falling away from the faith and the man of sin (Antichrist) is revealed.
That obviously means we can be certain Jesus will not be rapturing the church tonight, but the pretribulation worldview blinds its adherents so they cannot see what is clearly obvious according to Scripture. They would rather adhere to far fetched unscriptural teachings of deception on this matter.