Lets Talk Free Choice

Grandpa · May 18, 2017

Calvinism is not Universalism. You've got your signals mixed up.

Of course some resist the Holy Spirit. They are the lost.

Correct. We don't Choose God, He chooses us.

John 6:44 [FONT=&quot]No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.[/FONT]

Who is the all?

John 6:39 [FONT=&quot]And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.[/FONT]

I think you are starting to get it...

You mean according to your understanding of Calvinisim.

You have the 'free will' to choose just about any sin you want.

Romans 7:14-25
[FONT=&quot]14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.[/FONT]

trofimus · May 18, 2017

Depleted said:

Whaaat? I am so old already?

Oh, I remember those glorious days... win 98, win millenium, win xp... and then somebody came to school saying "hey, have you tried that site with videos?"

And after that... life was never the same lol

preacher4truth · May 18, 2017

Adstar said:

Of course God influences us through His Holy Spirit ... But we still in the end make the choice..We still have the choice to resist the leading of the Holy Spirit..

Read it::

Acts 7: KJV
51"¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

If calvinist dogma is correct this verse in the Book of Acts is uninspired because it clearly shows that people resist the Holy Spirit...

Calvinism doesn't teach man cannot resist God.

notuptome · May 18, 2017

SovereignGrace said:

So did Adam have a choice? Did Eve have a choice or was it Gods sovereign choice for them to sin?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome · May 18, 2017

preacher4truth said:

God wants all men to be saved yet multitudes perish in the valley of decision.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Depleted · May 18, 2017

kaylagrl said:

If Trump ordered and executed the death of every firstborn in America, would that be good or would that be evil?

God did order and executed the death of every firstborn in Egypt. Was that good or was that evil?

This is why I brought up Corrie Ten Boom. Hitler made what he did evil. God made that same act for some people's good. Corrie did not act alone in her effort to protect some Jews. It was a family effort rooted in their trust in God. And the family was caught. And all her family was killed by the Nazis. They were given God's mercy for their actions even with death. And Corrie was given the same amount of mercy by surviving the camp. (God does mercy or doesn't do mercy. It's not really a percentage thing. lol)

And then she had her biggest challenge. She was on stage with a group of people sharing their testimonies of what God had done for them during the Nazi occupation. And one of the officers at that camp -- one of the men who killed her family -- stepped forward to witness on how God had changed him.

Was that good or evil?

Yeesh! World War II wasn't the worst things Christians have ever gone through. The Great Tribulation from the first through third centuries was. The goal was to wipe out the Christians. And, in the case of Alexandria, the goal was accomplished. Was that good or was that evil? Because what God did with that was all to his glory and our good. Even our good today.

If God was a peacenik, there would be no wars ever. He is sovereign. He is sovereign in my family's fight for health. He is sovereign with your family's fight. He is sovereign when it looks bad. He is sovereign when it looks good. He. Is. Sovereign!

What HE chooses wins!

SovereignGrace · May 18, 2017

kaylagrl said:

Mankind left to themselves will never choose God.

Depleted · May 18, 2017

kaylagrl said:

There's another forum I go on that has this handy-dandy choice when starting a new thread. The "Keep on topic" button. When that is hit, those words are merely included under the title of the post. It doesn't really stop people from going off-topic, but it's a great reminder of when it is inappropriate to wander off topic. I wish CC had that. Then more people would be joining you on keeping to topic.

I've put Vic on ignore until this topic winds down.

(BTW, yes. I see the irony. This too was off topic.

)

Depleted · May 18, 2017

kaylagrl said:

I truly wish you'd come to realize the obvious -- we TULIPers aren't disagreeing with you. Indeed, we are very much agreeing with you. After all, if we do not have choice, then how can God blame us for continuing to sin?

You're preaching to the choir, and, in this case, the entire choir.

trofimus · May 18, 2017

notuptome said:

Again and again and again: we have a choice!

But our will is not free in a philosophical sense of indifferent stance. We always incline to some option, thats why we choose it.

You can see this inclining causation in the story "When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye..."

If she was given more grace of God (stronger, wiser, blind etc), she could decide differently.

Depleted · May 18, 2017

kaylagrl said:

Quote "I really am not going to look up Calvin's Institutes to tell you what Calvin meant by that even if I could figure out what Calvin meant by that in context."

5. The predestination by which God adopts some to the hope of life, and adjudges others to eternal death, no man who would be thought pious ventures simply to deny; but it is greatly caviled at, especially by those who make prescience its cause. We, indeed, ascribe both prescience and predestination to God; but we say, that it is absurd to make the latter subordinate to the former (see chap. 22 sec. 1). When we attribute prescience to God, we mean that all things always were, and ever continue, under his eye; that to his knowledge there is no past or future, but all things are present, and indeed so present, that it is not merely the idea of them that is before him (as those objects are which we retain in our memory), but that he truly sees and contemplates them as actually under his immediate inspection. This prescience extends to the whole circuit of the world, and to all creatures. By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. This God has testified, not only in the case of single individuals; he has also given a specimen of it in the whole posterity of Abraham, to make it plain that the future condition of each nation lives entirely at his disposal: "When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. For the Lord's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance," (Deut. 32:8, 9). The separation is before the eyes of all; in the person of Abraham, as in a withered stock, one people is specially chosen, while the others are rejected; but the cause does not appear, except that Moses, to deprive posterity of any handle for glorying, tells them that their superiority was owing entirely to the free love of God. The cause which he assigns for their deliverance is, "Because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them," (Deut. 4:37); or more explicitly in another chapter, "The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people: for ye were the fewest of all people: but because the Lord loved you," (Deut. 7:7, 8). He repeatedly makes the same intimations, "Behold, the heaven, and the heaven of heavens is the Lord's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is. Only the Lord had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them," (Deut. 10:14, 15). Again, in another passage, holiness is enjoined upon them, because they have been chosen to be a peculiar people; while in another, love is declared to be the cause of their protection (Deut. 23:5). This, too, believers with one voice proclaim, "He shall choose our inheritance for us, the excellency of Jacob, whom he loved," (Ps. 47:4). The endowments with which God had adorned them, they all ascribe to gratuitous love, not only because they knew that they had not obtained them by any merit, but that not even was the holy patriarch endued with a virtue that could procure such distinguished honor for himself and his posterity. And the more completely to crush all pride, he upbraids them with having merited nothing of the kind, seeing they were a rebellious and stiff-necked people (Deut. 9:6). Often, also, do the prophets remind the Jews of this election by way of disparagement and opprobrium, because they had shamefully revolted from it. Be this as it may, let those who would ascribe the election of God to human worth or merit come forward. When they see that one nation is preferred to all others, when they hear that it was no feeling of respect that induced God to show more favor to a small and ignoble body, nay, even to the wicked and rebellious, will they plead against him for having chosen to give such a manifestation of mercy? But neither will their obstreperous words hinder his work, nor will their invectives, like stones thrown against heaven, strike or hurt his righteousness; nay, rather they will fall back on their own heads. To this principle of a free covenant, moreover, the Israelites are recalled whenever thanks are to be returned to God, or their hopes of the future to be animated. "The Lord he is God," says the Psalmist; "it is he that has made us, and not we ourselves: we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture," (Ps. 100:3; 95:7). The negation which is added, "not we ourselves," is not superfluous, to teach us that God is not only the author of all the good qualities in which men excel, but that they originate in himself, there being nothing in them worthy of so much honor. In the following words also they are enjoined to rest satisfied with the mere good pleasure of God: "O ye seed of Abraham, his servant; ye children of Jacob, his chosen," (Ps. 105:6). And after an enumeration of the continual mercies of God as fruits of election, the conclusion is, that he acted thus kindly because he remembered his covenant. With this doctrine accords the song of the whole Church, "They got not the land in possession by their own sword, neither did their own arm save them; but thy right hand, and thine arm, and the light of thy countenance, because thou hadst a favor unto them," (Ps. 44:3). It is to be observed, that when the land is mentioned, it is a visible symbol of the secret election in which adoption is comprehended. To like gratitude David elsewhere exhorts the people, "Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, and the people whom he has chosen for his own inheritance," (Ps. 33:12). Samuel thus animates their hopes, "The Lord will not forsake his people for his great name's sake: because it has pleased the Lord to make you his people," (1 Sam. 12:22). And when David's faith is assailed, how does he arm himself for the battle? "Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causes to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts," (Ps. 65:4). But as the hidden election of God was confirmed both by a first and second election, and by other intermediate mercies, Isaiah thus applies the terms "The Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel," (Isa. 14:1). Referring to a future period, the gathering together of the dispersion, who seemed to have been abandoned, he says, that it will be a sign of a firm and stable election, notwithstanding of the apparent abandonment. When it is elsewhere said, "I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away," (Isa. 41:9), the continual course of his great liberality is ascribed to paternal kindness. This is stated more explicitly in Zechariah by the angel, the Lord "shall choose Jerusalem again," as if the severity of his chastisements had amounted to reprobation, or the captivity had been an interruption of election, which, however, remains inviolable, though the signs of it do not always appear.

You, of all people, text-walled me?

(Make that into paragraphs and a bit bigger, and I'll read it. But, warning, busy day today -- I think -- so I might not read it today.)

Depleted · May 18, 2017

trofimus said:

And I thought, "Aha! It really wasn't that long ago." lol

Depleted · May 18, 2017

notuptome said:

Already covered. (on this thread, too.)

preacher4truth · May 18, 2017

notuptome said:

Yes, all kinds of men in every position, not each and every person who has ever lived

They surely do die there, especially when preachers tell them they're going to heaven because they made a decision, when their lives deny true conversion, Titus 1:16. Yet, these same preachers tell them they're on their way to heaven. No matter what. Because in the valley of decision they cast a vote. Such teaching is a denial of the Gospel and is a mockery of true conversion and biblical examination.

kaylagrl · May 18, 2017

I keep going back to the Scriptures. Now one has yet explained to me how God can command people to repent,believe,come to Him when they cannot. If you are not of the elect you cannot obey,again God stepping on the leash. If you were created for destruction you cannot obey His commands,so how is it fair that God would condemn you for something you cannot do? You cannot choose? For a Calvinist to say "oh yes you can choose,you can choose Gods will" that is not a choice. That is God stepping on the leash. He gave Adam and Eve choice,He told them not to eat of the fruit and the consequences.And yet they chose to sin. Therefore Adam and Eve were not perfect,they sinned and they chose sin. God calls His people back to Him throughout the Bible. The Holy Spirit draws man continually. The only chosen people of the Bible are the Jews and we are grafted in. And yet the Jews are not elected in the sense that they are saved.They have to come the same way we all do,through Christ.

Matt.4 "From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”

Isa.30 'This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says: “In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it.

Luke 5 "Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.
32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

Acts 3 "
Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord"

Romans 2 "Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

Rev 3 "Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

James 8 "Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded."

Acts 2 "Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Ezk. "For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

Acts 17 "In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

Luke 15 "I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

2 Chr. "For the Lord your God is gracious and compassionate. He will not turn his face from you if you return to him.

Once again God is making demands of His creation that they cannot obey! If a sinner cannot respond because they are not elected why does God tell sinners to repent? I dont understand this.

kaylagrl · May 18, 2017

preacher4truth said:

Yes, all kinds of men in every position, not each and every person who has ever lived

They surely do die there, especially when preachers tell them they're going to heaven because they made a decision, when their lives deny true conversion, Titus 1:16. Yet, these same preachers tell them they're on their way to heaven. No matter what. Because in the valley of decision they cast a vote. Such teaching is a denial of the Gospel and is a mockery of true conversion and biblical examination.

So you do not believe in OSAS?

preacher4truth · May 18, 2017

kaylagrl said:

When a person who gets saved after hearing this command, what dilemma did this command place within them in? Fear of the consequences of continuing in sin? Ability to do it themselves? Utter dependence upon God to grant this to them? Seeking after God for granted repentance and examination of true conversion?

It puts the elect in a dilemma, and in ultimate concern of their lost state of which only God can deliver them.

SovereignGrace · May 18, 2017

notuptome said:

Adam was created sinless, you and I weren't.

Apples to dump trucks.

kaylagrl · May 18, 2017

preacher4truth said:

No,the elect are already saved. Repent is a demand of sinners.The verse said "I did not come to call the righteous"... If a sinner is unable to respond and utterly depraved how can God demand repentance? I dont get that.

kaylagrl · May 18, 2017

SovereignGrace said:

Can you get me the verse that says Adam was sinless? Because apparently he didn't know it and was tossed out of the garden on his ear for being exactly the opposite,sinful. Christ was the only sinless person to walk this earth.

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